Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
well Ubuntu has the first publicly released install that is specifically for netbooks, including a fully tuned UI for netbook screen real estate. and visiting the xandros websites makes me want to scrub my brain... their marketspeak and corporateese makes microsoft look like a friend to foss. On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Lisa Kacholdlisakach...@obnosis.com wrote: That's a great idea! http://www.obnosis.com/motivatebytruth/national_security_threat_%231.jpg On 6/23/09, Taylor, Kaia kaia.tay...@schwab.com wrote: Speaking of tweaking netbooks, I'll have one in hand soon. I'd be happy to eventually give a brief presentation, following on hans's presentation and the idea that it might be neat to compare price/functionality/value. Here's mine http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v3.asp?SCriteria=BA25872 I have 2 ideas, in terms of such a presentation OS: I'm assuming that Xandros (which comes pre-installed) will *have* to go, and while I'm doing that, why not match it up with someone else's OS in PLUG, so we can compare performance with no extra variables introduced by a different OS. If anyone has an existing netbook, and is interested, give me a shout. NB my cheapie netbook's SSD is only 4G. Hardware diags: I'm also wondering if anyone who has gotten a refurb like mine has a handy link to some baseline/diag tools to test everything before the manufacturer's warranty runs out. My friend got an EEE which it turns out couldn't reach USB 2.0 speed on a couple of his ports, for instance. That particular issue is easy to test by, whatever, time ... dd to the SD card mounted on that port, but I'm guessing there are other hardware check scripts that can save me some work with other hw components. We might want to run the same diags on different models of netbooks if we want to do side by side comparisons. Regards, Kaia Taylor All e-mail sent to or from this address will be received by the Charles Schwab corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:18 AM To: quatsch Subject: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- (503)754-4452 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LisaKachold http://tinyurl.com/44zfgx http://www.obnosis.com/motivation/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
I have never had a good experience with Xandros or it's derivatives. Well, actually they work fine until the first update. Then things start breaking. I love http://geteasypeasy.com/ on my netbook. It's based on Ubuntu. Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Stephencryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: well Ubuntu has the first publicly released install that is specifically for netbooks, including a fully tuned UI for netbook screen real estate. and visiting the xandros websites makes me want to scrub my brain... their marketspeak and corporateese makes microsoft look like a friend to foss. On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Lisa Kacholdlisakach...@obnosis.com wrote: That's a great idea! http://www.obnosis.com/motivatebytruth/national_security_threat_%231.jpg On 6/23/09, Taylor, Kaia kaia.tay...@schwab.com wrote: Speaking of tweaking netbooks, I'll have one in hand soon. I'd be happy to eventually give a brief presentation, following on hans's presentation and the idea that it might be neat to compare price/functionality/value. Here's mine http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v3.asp?SCriteria=BA25872 I have 2 ideas, in terms of such a presentation OS: I'm assuming that Xandros (which comes pre-installed) will *have* to go, and while I'm doing that, why not match it up with someone else's OS in PLUG, so we can compare performance with no extra variables introduced by a different OS. If anyone has an existing netbook, and is interested, give me a shout. NB my cheapie netbook's SSD is only 4G. Hardware diags: I'm also wondering if anyone who has gotten a refurb like mine has a handy link to some baseline/diag tools to test everything before the manufacturer's warranty runs out. My friend got an EEE which it turns out couldn't reach USB 2.0 speed on a couple of his ports, for instance. That particular issue is easy to test by, whatever, time ... dd to the SD card mounted on that port, but I'm guessing there are other hardware check scripts that can save me some work with other hw components. We might want to run the same diags on different models of netbooks if we want to do side by side comparisons. Regards, Kaia Taylor All e-mail sent to or from this address will be received by the Charles Schwab corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:18 AM To: quatsch Subject: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- (503)754-4452 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LisaKachold http://tinyurl.com/44zfgx http://www.obnosis.com/motivation/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe,
Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
ok, what is the difference between this and the ubuntu netbook remix? On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Alan Dayleyala...@consultpros.com wrote: I have never had a good experience with Xandros or it's derivatives. Well, actually they work fine until the first update. Then things start breaking. I love http://geteasypeasy.com/ on my netbook. It's based on Ubuntu. Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Stephencryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: well Ubuntu has the first publicly released install that is specifically for netbooks, including a fully tuned UI for netbook screen real estate. and visiting the xandros websites makes me want to scrub my brain... their marketspeak and corporateese makes microsoft look like a friend to foss. On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Lisa Kacholdlisakach...@obnosis.com wrote: That's a great idea! http://www.obnosis.com/motivatebytruth/national_security_threat_%231.jpg On 6/23/09, Taylor, Kaia kaia.tay...@schwab.com wrote: Speaking of tweaking netbooks, I'll have one in hand soon. I'd be happy to eventually give a brief presentation, following on hans's presentation and the idea that it might be neat to compare price/functionality/value. Here's mine http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v3.asp?SCriteria=BA25872 I have 2 ideas, in terms of such a presentation OS: I'm assuming that Xandros (which comes pre-installed) will *have* to go, and while I'm doing that, why not match it up with someone else's OS in PLUG, so we can compare performance with no extra variables introduced by a different OS. If anyone has an existing netbook, and is interested, give me a shout. NB my cheapie netbook's SSD is only 4G. Hardware diags: I'm also wondering if anyone who has gotten a refurb like mine has a handy link to some baseline/diag tools to test everything before the manufacturer's warranty runs out. My friend got an EEE which it turns out couldn't reach USB 2.0 speed on a couple of his ports, for instance. That particular issue is easy to test by, whatever, time ... dd to the SD card mounted on that port, but I'm guessing there are other hardware check scripts that can save me some work with other hw components. We might want to run the same diags on different models of netbooks if we want to do side by side comparisons. Regards, Kaia Taylor All e-mail sent to or from this address will be received by the Charles Schwab corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:18 AM To: quatsch Subject: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- (503)754-4452 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LisaKachold http://tinyurl.com/44zfgx http://www.obnosis.com/motivation/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
Easy Peasy vs Netbook Remix (Was: Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling)
Best answered by the people at Easy Peasy: http://forums.geteasypeasy.com/viewtopic.php?f=12t=1761p=6871#p6871 Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Stephen cryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: ok, what is the difference between this and the ubuntu netbook remix? On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Alan Dayleyala...@consultpros.com wrote: I have never had a good experience with Xandros or it's derivatives. Well, actually they work fine until the first update. Then things start breaking. I love http://geteasypeasy.com/ on my netbook. It's based on Ubuntu. Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Stephencryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: well Ubuntu has the first publicly released install that is specifically for netbooks, including a fully tuned UI for netbook screen real estate. and visiting the xandros websites makes me want to scrub my brain... their marketspeak and corporateese makes microsoft look like a friend to foss. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
2009/6/23 der.hans pl...@lufthans.com moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ Interesting post! Several years back in a discussion with a flash controller maker we discussed the FAT area of their system. This particular controller would set aside a area of the LBAs for use of the tables for a FAT file system. The flash erase blocks were smaller, wear-leveled more often, etc. This is good for a system that uses a FAT file system. It is not good for many other file systems that have high write areas in other than the low LBAs. The controller maker was surprised when when we pointed this out to them, noting that there are a great many Unix-based file systems in use for the embedded, industrial and military markets. Many controllers now days do maximum wear-leveling across the entire flash space so the distinction of where a FAT is located is less important. This is good news for ext3 and other journaling file systems. Running ext3 on a modern SSD should not cause more wear-out than what is proportional to the total number of writes experienced. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Easy Peasy vs Netbook Remix (Was: Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling)
thats perfect, and i think i might go with an easypeasy install over the 9.04, mainly because i like vlc and cant use it with 9.04 yet without installing from scratch, and well i like having managed packages... On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Alan Dayleyala...@consultpros.com wrote: Best answered by the people at Easy Peasy: http://forums.geteasypeasy.com/viewtopic.php?f=12t=1761p=6871#p6871 Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Stephen cryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: ok, what is the difference between this and the ubuntu netbook remix? On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Alan Dayleyala...@consultpros.com wrote: I have never had a good experience with Xandros or it's derivatives. Well, actually they work fine until the first update. Then things start breaking. I love http://geteasypeasy.com/ on my netbook. It's based on Ubuntu. Alan On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Stephencryptwo...@gmail.com wrote: well Ubuntu has the first publicly released install that is specifically for netbooks, including a fully tuned UI for netbook screen real estate. and visiting the xandros websites makes me want to scrub my brain... their marketspeak and corporateese makes microsoft look like a friend to foss. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
Speaking of tweaking netbooks, I'll have one in hand soon. I'd be happy to eventually give a brief presentation, following on hans's presentation and the idea that it might be neat to compare price/functionality/value. Here's mine http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v3.asp?SCriteria=BA25872 I have 2 ideas, in terms of such a presentation OS: I'm assuming that Xandros (which comes pre-installed) will *have* to go, and while I'm doing that, why not match it up with someone else's OS in PLUG, so we can compare performance with no extra variables introduced by a different OS. If anyone has an existing netbook, and is interested, give me a shout. NB my cheapie netbook's SSD is only 4G. Hardware diags: I'm also wondering if anyone who has gotten a refurb like mine has a handy link to some baseline/diag tools to test everything before the manufacturer's warranty runs out. My friend got an EEE which it turns out couldn't reach USB 2.0 speed on a couple of his ports, for instance. That particular issue is easy to test by, whatever, time ... dd to the SD card mounted on that port, but I'm guessing there are other hardware check scripts that can save me some work with other hw components. We might want to run the same diags on different models of netbooks if we want to do side by side comparisons. Regards, Kaia Taylor All e-mail sent to or from this address will be received by the Charles Schwab corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:18 AM To: quatsch Subject: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling
That's a great idea! http://www.obnosis.com/motivatebytruth/national_security_threat_%231.jpg On 6/23/09, Taylor, Kaia kaia.tay...@schwab.com wrote: Speaking of tweaking netbooks, I'll have one in hand soon. I'd be happy to eventually give a brief presentation, following on hans's presentation and the idea that it might be neat to compare price/functionality/value. Here's mine http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v3.asp?SCriteria=BA25872 I have 2 ideas, in terms of such a presentation OS: I'm assuming that Xandros (which comes pre-installed) will *have* to go, and while I'm doing that, why not match it up with someone else's OS in PLUG, so we can compare performance with no extra variables introduced by a different OS. If anyone has an existing netbook, and is interested, give me a shout. NB my cheapie netbook's SSD is only 4G. Hardware diags: I'm also wondering if anyone who has gotten a refurb like mine has a handy link to some baseline/diag tools to test everything before the manufacturer's warranty runs out. My friend got an EEE which it turns out couldn't reach USB 2.0 speed on a couple of his ports, for instance. That particular issue is easy to test by, whatever, time ... dd to the SD card mounted on that port, but I'm guessing there are other hardware check scripts that can save me some work with other hw components. We might want to run the same diags on different models of netbooks if we want to do side by side comparisons. Regards, Kaia Taylor All e-mail sent to or from this address will be received by the Charles Schwab corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of der.hans Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:18 AM To: quatsch Subject: Ted T'so on SSD and journalling moin moin, The first paragraph in the quote was a comment on Ted's blog. The second is Ted's response. Read the blog post at the URL given below. ### # # 2 tytso Says: March 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 am @1: I’d thought that the reason to avoid ext3 on SSDs, at least most of the ones available today, was not the total number of writes but rather the repeated writes to the same place on the disk (that is, the journal) Norman, Actually, even the most primitive SSD’s and Flash drives have to get this right, because the Windows FAT filesystem are constantly updating the same locations on disk (namely for the File Allocation Table), which is in a fixed location on disk. So although there’s not a lot we can count on in terms of the quality of flash drives’ wear level, it’s very likely they get that right, since otherwise their reliability on basic FAT filesystems, which are used in essentially every single digital camera on the market, would be pretty bad. ### http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/ ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Magic is science unexplained. - der.hans --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- (503)754-4452 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LisaKachold http://tinyurl.com/44zfgx http://www.obnosis.com/motivation/ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
