Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

I'll say it again, so it's not a "I said this and I am right" thing.

Let's drop this.

Thanks,
Dan Lund

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so
many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled -
because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too
cowardly to exercise it.  The virtues which cloak these faults are
called patience and forbearance.
-Friedrich Nietzsche



On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Bryan O'Neal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am very late to this, but what the hey.
> "... you cannot deny the possibility. "
> I also can not deny the possibility that nothing exists, the sky is not
> blue, and the desk I sit in front of four 14 hours a day is just a
> deranged dream, etc..  Possibility is always possible.  Probability is
> another matter.
> As for some grand conspiracy, I find it highly unlikely, not mater what
> the conspiracy.  Real conspiracies, big and small, consist of a few
> people agreeing to act in a particular manner.  For example the whole
> FOSS community is a conspiracy against proprietary pay software.  But
> when big things happen it is often because a few key, and/or many
> lesser, unrelated people, are acting in out of self interest.  One ant
> does not know what the other ant is doing, but they act as a group
> because each ant knows that if they follow the trail there is a reward.
> So all the ants follow the trail.  It is just that simple there is no
> great hive mind controlling them, just each ant looking out for it's own
> survival in the best way it knows how.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Nathan
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 9:29 AM
> To: Main PLUG discussion list
> Subject: Re: OT: remember
>
> On Wednesday 24 September 2008 05:31:49 Technomage Hawke wrote:
>> its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
>> new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.
>
> I tend to call it an inability to believe our government is capable of
> doing
> such a thing. Whether you believe it or not, you cannot deny the
> possibility.
> After all, if would _not_ be the first time in this countries
> presidential
> history they allowed us to be attacked to provoke the people into
> approval of
> a war. Conspiracy theories may be wack job ideas, but complete dismissal
> of
> some one elses views is just as dangerous.
>
> nathan
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RE: OT: remember

[Bryan O'Neal]

I am very late to this, but what the hey.
"... you cannot deny the possibility. "  
I also can not deny the possibility that nothing exists, the sky is not
blue, and the desk I sit in front of four 14 hours a day is just a
deranged dream, etc..  Possibility is always possible.  Probability is
another matter.
As for some grand conspiracy, I find it highly unlikely, not mater what
the conspiracy.  Real conspiracies, big and small, consist of a few
people agreeing to act in a particular manner.  For example the whole
FOSS community is a conspiracy against proprietary pay software.  But
when big things happen it is often because a few key, and/or many
lesser, unrelated people, are acting in out of self interest.  One ant
does not know what the other ant is doing, but they act as a group
because each ant knows that if they follow the trail there is a reward.
So all the ants follow the trail.  It is just that simple there is no
great hive mind controlling them, just each ant looking out for it's own
survival in the best way it knows how.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Nathan
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 9:29 AM
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: OT: remember

On Wednesday 24 September 2008 05:31:49 Technomage Hawke wrote:
> its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
> new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.

I tend to call it an inability to believe our government is capable of
doing 
such a thing. Whether you believe it or not, you cannot deny the
possibility. 
After all, if would _not_ be the first time in this countries
presidential 
history they allowed us to be attacked to provoke the people into
approval of 
a war. Conspiracy theories may be wack job ideas, but complete dismissal
of 
some one elses views is just as dangerous. 

nathan
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Re: OT: remember

[Tuna]

Alan Dayley wrote:
> IMO this thread needs to go back to sleep, even die.  Please let it lie.
> 
> Alan

We could just make a separate list for these.

plug-conspiracy, anyone?
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

On south park during the christmas episodes :)
Thanks,
Dan Lund

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Eric Shubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Anyone seen Hitler? ;)
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Re: OT: remember

[Technomage Hawke]

Well,
given historical perspective, yeah.

It was roosevelt who got us involved in WWII, and it was johnson who
wouldn't leave well enough alone for viet nam.

as for 9/11, that may have been a bit more complex from that standpoint.

anyway, someone else on the list requested this discussion either end
or be taken off list, so I am going to shut up now.

On 9/24/08, Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 September 2008 05:31:49 Technomage Hawke wrote:
>  > its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
>  > new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.
>
>  I tend to call it an inability to believe our government is capable of doing
>  such a thing. Whether you believe it or not, you cannot deny the possibility.
>  After all, if would _not_ be the first time in this countries presidential
>  history they allowed us to be attacked to provoke the people into approval of
>  a war. Conspiracy theories may be wack job ideas, but complete dismissal of
>  some one elses views is just as dangerous.
>
>
>  nathan
>  ---
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Re: OT: remember

[Alan Dayley]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Craig White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 09:48 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote:
>> Alan Dayley wrote:
>> > IMO this thread needs to go back to sleep, even die.  Please let it lie.
>> >
>> > Alan
>>
>> Anyone seen Hitler? ;)
> 
> nope - just a couple of people who lack tact, intellectual restraint and
> a memory so short, that they can't remember just a couple of years back
> when the administration was ginning up conspiracy theories of WMD and
> yellow cake to justify a war.

I did not intend to support or quash any particular point of this
discussion.  I intended to just ask that this thread stop because
plug-discuss is not the correct forum for this topic.  I should have
stated such and apologize for not being clear.

Alan
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Re: OT: remember

[Craig White]

On Wed, 2008-09-24 at 09:48 -0700, Eric Shubert wrote:
> Alan Dayley wrote:
> > IMO this thread needs to go back to sleep, even die.  Please let it lie.
> > 
> > Alan
> 
> Anyone seen Hitler? ;)

nope - just a couple of people who lack tact, intellectual restraint and
a memory so short, that they can't remember just a couple of years back
when the administration was ginning up conspiracy theories of WMD and
yellow cake to justify a war.

Craig

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Re: OT: remember

[Eric Shubert]

Alan Dayley wrote:
> IMO this thread needs to go back to sleep, even die.  Please let it lie.
> 
> Alan

Anyone seen Hitler? ;)

-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: OT: remember

[Nathan]

> I find it amusing that some people believe that the Federal Government is
> even capable of doing such a thing, given its ability to do so few things
> well. ;)

History has proven that governments do one thing well. That is destroy itself.
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Re: OT: remember

[Alan Dayley]

IMO this thread needs to go back to sleep, even die.  Please let it lie.

Alan
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Re: OT: remember

[Eric Shubert]

Nathan wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 September 2008 05:31:49 Technomage Hawke wrote:
>> its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
>> new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.
> 
> I tend to call it an inability to believe our government is capable of doing 
> such a thing. Whether you believe it or not, you cannot deny the possibility. 
> After all, if would _not_ be the first time in this countries presidential 
> history they allowed us to be attacked to provoke the people into approval of 
> a war. Conspiracy theories may be wack job ideas, but complete dismissal of 
> some one elses views is just as dangerous. 
> 
> nathan

I find it amusing that some people believe that the Federal Government is
even capable of doing such a thing, given its ability to do so few things
well. ;)

-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: OT: remember

[Nathan]

On Wednesday 24 September 2008 05:31:49 Technomage Hawke wrote:
> its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
> new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.

I tend to call it an inability to believe our government is capable of doing 
such a thing. Whether you believe it or not, you cannot deny the possibility. 
After all, if would _not_ be the first time in this countries presidential 
history they allowed us to be attacked to provoke the people into approval of 
a war. Conspiracy theories may be wack job ideas, but complete dismissal of 
some one elses views is just as dangerous. 

nathan
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Re: OT: remember

[Technomage Hawke]

Sorry,
I chimed in on this rather late.
I, too, have seen some of the effects of what happened that day in
2001 (and had 2 close friends die in the towers).

its just that I get rather a bit irked when someone comes out with a
new conspiracy theory. call it an exposed nerve for me.

On 9/24/08, Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Let's NOT start this again.  Your views are no more right than my
>  views, or his views, or any one elses views.  I thought this ended.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Dan Lund
>
>  To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so
>  many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled -
>  because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too
>  cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are
>  called patience and forbearance.
>  -Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:16 AM, Technomage Hawke
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > oh boy
>  >
>  > why is it that people like this still exist?
>
> >snip<
>
> ---
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

Let's NOT start this again.  Your views are no more right than my
views, or his views, or any one elses views.  I thought this ended.

Thanks,
Dan Lund

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so
many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled -
because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too
cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are
called patience and forbearance.
-Friedrich Nietzsche



On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:16 AM, Technomage Hawke
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> oh boy
>
> why is it that people like this still exist?
>snip<
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Re: OT: remember

[Technomage Hawke]

oh boy

why is it that people like this still exist?
c'mon folks, common sense dictates that such "consiracies" cannot
exist in any reasonable form because someone will invariably leak the
details to the press...

The "person" who wrote this blog appears to have a particular dislike
for the bush family and keeps referring to America as a "democracy"
(which it really isn't. its a mocied form of republic actually).

I guess it just takes all kinds to make the world work, eh?


On 9/11/08, Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hachow,
>
>  http://loosechange911.com/blog/
>
>  --
>  Thanks and best regards,
>  Ryan Rix
>
>  And I'm-a dancin' with myself
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
>  > remember 09.11.2001
>  >
>  > -j
>  > http://computeristsolutions.com
>
>
>
> ---
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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Vaughn Treude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Charles Jones wrote:
> > It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike,
> > I was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have
> > actually told me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't
> > reveal that it was a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it
> > incredible that these people who have never even been within 2000
> > miles of ground zero or the Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow
> > mistaken about what happened there that day. I think for some people
> > it's just more "fun" to believe a conspiracy because there is nothing
> > else to do. I say fun because, man, I gotta think that if someone
> > *truly* believed that our govt would kill thousands of people in broad
> > daylight for some hidden agenda, that they would be afraid to even
> > step outside of their house or own anything that would have them "on
> > the grid".
> >
> > -Charles
> Sorry I got in this one a bit late, but I for one believe you, Charles.
> The missile theories are just "plane" silly. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
> OTOH, I believe there's strong evidence that some tiny cabal high in the
> government was running interference for the terrorists. I think it has
> to be more than just incompetence that FBI agents in two locations were
> told to back off investigations of suspicious Arabs in flight schools.
> There's lots more, for example, the training exercises on 9/11, and the
> Mossad agents who were tailing the hijackers in Florida.
> Instead of discussions of these anomalies, what we've got is the
> demolition and missile "theories", where are red herrings of incredible
> odiferousness.



  well if you find a rotten apple in the basket, you're more than likely to
reject the whole bushel right?

  this is a well understood disinformation technique- just print it
alongside garbage and people will reject the concept as the same.  So I
don't doubt that many of these theories are garbage.  Seems like someone is
trying to make sure that critical thinking on this subject is off limits for
the average person.  -jmz



> People like the Loose Change guys pick that stuff up and
> it makes all of us skeptics look like crazies. See the site oilempire.us
> for more on this viewpoint. Although that site is even a bit too
> imaginative for my taste, claiming that the plane that hit the Pentagon
> must have been remote-controlled, since the hijacker's flying was too
> good. What about dumb-ass luck? Besides, I imagine the Pentagon is a
> relatively "hard" target compared to civilian office buildings, so the
> conspirators probably weren't too worried.
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Vaughn
>
>
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
> >>
> >> Guess I was wrong.
> >>
> >>  Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hachow,
> >>>
> >>> http://loosechange911.com/blog/
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Thanks and best regards,
> >>> Ryan Rix
> >>>
> >>> And I'm-a dancin' with myself
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
> >>>
>  remember 09.11.2001
> 
>  -j
>  http://computeristsolutions.com
> 
> >>> ---
> >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >>>
> >
> > 
> >
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Vaughn Treude]

Charles Jones wrote:
> It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, 
> I was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have 
> actually told me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't 
> reveal that it was a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it 
> incredible that these people who have never even been within 2000 
> miles of ground zero or the Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow 
> mistaken about what happened there that day. I think for some people 
> it's just more "fun" to believe a conspiracy because there is nothing 
> else to do. I say fun because, man, I gotta think that if someone 
> *truly* believed that our govt would kill thousands of people in broad 
> daylight for some hidden agenda, that they would be afraid to even 
> step outside of their house or own anything that would have them "on 
> the grid".
>
> -Charles
Sorry I got in this one a bit late, but I for one believe you, Charles. 
The missile theories are just "plane" silly. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
OTOH, I believe there's strong evidence that some tiny cabal high in the 
government was running interference for the terrorists. I think it has 
to be more than just incompetence that FBI agents in two locations were 
told to back off investigations of suspicious Arabs in flight schools. 
There's lots more, for example, the training exercises on 9/11, and the 
Mossad agents who were tailing the hijackers in Florida.
Instead of discussions of these anomalies, what we've got is the 
demolition and missile "theories", where are red herrings of incredible 
odiferousness. People like the Loose Change guys pick that stuff up and 
it makes all of us skeptics look like crazies. See the site oilempire.us 
for more on this viewpoint. Although that site is even a bit too 
imaginative for my taste, claiming that the plane that hit the Pentagon 
must have been remote-controlled, since the hijacker's flying was too 
good. What about dumb-ass luck? Besides, I imagine the Pentagon is a 
relatively "hard" target compared to civilian office buildings, so the 
conspirators probably weren't too worried.
Just my 2 cents.

Vaughn


>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
>>
>> Guess I was wrong.
>>
>>  Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>>   
>>> Hachow,
>>>
>>> http://loosechange911.com/blog/
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>> Ryan Rix
>>>
>>> And I'm-a dancin' with myself
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
>>> 
 remember 09.11.2001

 -j
 http://computeristsolutions.com
   
>>> ---
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>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>> 
>
> 
>
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Re: OT: remember

[Jerry Snitselaar]

Enough already. Take this offline. It has no place on this list.
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

The ongoing way to patriotize something of that nature right now (and
since '01) is simply to state that one must allow temporary loss of
freedom to retain the liberty. (yes, I've heard this alot)

Benjamin Franklin said something almost 180 degrees to it, but I guess
it's just considered one of those obscure old people sayings that
didn't really know the problems we would run into. "People willing to
trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will
lose both.".

I have a feeling an entire coast being invaded by a foreign country is
a bit worse than today's America

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Craig White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:43 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>
>
>>   interesting... I 'm really no expert in the Pentagon case, I cast
>> aspersions on the official story due to personally known facts
>> concerning the NYC scene.  After doing a few minutes of research it
>> would appear that the notion of there being a plane in the area
>> despite something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon is hardly a
>> new one:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5D2K19Y-aI&feature=related .
>> Which is interesting considering I was about to discount this camp
>> altogether due to Charles' testimony.
>>
>>   just to make it clear, I do not subscribe to any and every kooky
>> theory you may have read concerning these attacks.  The only thing you
>> may assume about my viewpoint is what I have stated here.
> 
> I think that far more important than the various theories of
> who/what/why is the fact that the reaction to the events of 9/11 are so
> entirely out of scale.
>
> Consider that 4X more US Citizens die each year from drunk driving
> accidents. Consider that the reaction has caused the deaths of more US
> servicemen than those that died on 9/11. Consider the impact of waging a
> war that we can't pay for and what it is doing to our economy.
>
> Obviously the government has given us their accounting for the events of
> 9/11 and they are going to stick to that story. I am far more concerned
> with the loss of freedoms, the economic damage and the exploitation of
> nationalistic fervor done under auspices of those events.
>
> Craig
>
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Re: OT: remember

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:43 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


>   interesting... I 'm really no expert in the Pentagon case, I cast
> aspersions on the official story due to personally known facts
> concerning the NYC scene.  After doing a few minutes of research it
> would appear that the notion of there being a plane in the area
> despite something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon is hardly a
> new one:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5D2K19Y-aI&feature=related .
> Which is interesting considering I was about to discount this camp
> altogether due to Charles' testimony.
> 
>   just to make it clear, I do not subscribe to any and every kooky
> theory you may have read concerning these attacks.  The only thing you
> may assume about my viewpoint is what I have stated here.

I think that far more important than the various theories of
who/what/why is the fact that the reaction to the events of 9/11 are so
entirely out of scale.

Consider that 4X more US Citizens die each year from drunk driving
accidents. Consider that the reaction has caused the deaths of more US
servicemen than those that died on 9/11. Consider the impact of waging a
war that we can't pay for and what it is doing to our economy. 

Obviously the government has given us their accounting for the events of
9/11 and they are going to stick to that story. I am far more concerned
with the loss of freedoms, the economic damage and the exploitation of
nationalistic fervor done under auspices of those events.

Craig

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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
>> > objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have
>> been
>> > quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
>> > threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
>> >
>> >   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have
>> someone
>> > right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce
>> it is
>> > a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
>> > posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post
>> the
>> > pictures.
>>
>> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
>>
>> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
>> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
>> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
>>
>> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
>> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
>> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
>> or something and therefore not a ghost.
>>
>> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
>> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
>> They each see their own truth.
>
>
>   just a quick point... its an asymmetrical conflict.  On one hand you have
> an 'official' investigation with a (semi) consistent story and credible
> official testimony.  On the other hand you have a mob of angry theorists
> speaking at varying levels of anonymity, some which may be correct, all
> being considered as one group that shares the same level of credibility.  I
> certainly feel there is some kind of subterfuge going on here, but that
> doesn't mean that I agree with every person who disagrees with the 911
> Commission Report.
>
> Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
>> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
>> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
>> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
>> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
>> convince one to believe the other story.
>>
>> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
>> decide the debate here or in the world at large.
>
>
>   Given that he did just post his pictures... the fact remains there is no
> compelling evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.  Any reasoning
> individual would question the fact that something as big as a plane would
> likely leave incontrovertible evidence if it struck such an important
> building in such a crowded area.  Charles claims he did see a plane, and one
> interesting thing I just noticed on the CNN video- this person is saying the
> the plane 'stopped short' of the Pentagon, so does seem to agree that a
> plane was there as Charles corroborates.
>

  interesting... I 'm really no expert in the Pentagon case, I cast
aspersions on the official story due to personally known facts concerning
the NYC scene.  After doing a few minutes of research it would appear that
the notion of there being a plane in the area despite something other than a
plane hitting the Pentagon is hardly a new one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5D2K19Y-aI&feature=related .  Which is
interesting considering I was about to discount this camp altogether due to
Charles' testimony.

  just to make it clear, I do not subscribe to any and every kooky theory
you may have read concerning these attacks.  The only thing you may assume
about my viewpoint is what I have stated here.

  -jmz


>
>
>
>>  The believers will
>> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
>> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
>> relationships.
>
>
>   There is a controversy, and there is a truth behind it. -jmz
>
>
> --
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War
> IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>
> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>



-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

government personnel distracted by news footage? :)
jk
I didn't know that... interesting situation, watching something
happening to someone else and then having it nearly happen to you.
I think I'd buy a lotto ticket after that once I hobbled out of
the building intact that is.

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   there were some stories where some of the survivors of the Pentagon scene
> were actually watching the WTC news coverage when the 
> struck the Pentagon. -jmz
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> I guess the real question is why did the people in the pentagon and
>> the trade centers stay in the same spot when they say the planes
>> coming!!! everyone should run!!!
>> (joking)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dan Lund
>> It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
>> to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
>> act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
>> free scope.
>> -Niccolo Machiavelli
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to
>> >> > an
>> >> > objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have
>> >> > been
>> >> > quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
>> >> > threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
>> >> >
>> >> >   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have
>> >> > someone
>> >> > right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to
>> >> > produce
>> >> > it is
>> >> > a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when
>> >> > he
>> >> > posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post
>> >> > the
>> >> > pictures.
>> >>
>> >> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
>> >>
>> >> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
>> >> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
>> >> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
>> >>
>> >> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
>> >> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
>> >> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
>> >> or something and therefore not a ghost.
>> >>
>> >> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
>> >> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
>> >> They each see their own truth.
>> >
>> >   just a quick point... its an asymmetrical conflict.  On one hand you
>> > have
>> > an 'official' investigation with a (semi) consistent story and credible
>> > official testimony.  On the other hand you have a mob of angry theorists
>> > speaking at varying levels of anonymity, some which may be correct, all
>> > being considered as one group that shares the same level of credibility.
>> >  I
>> > certainly feel there is some kind of subterfuge going on here, but that
>> > doesn't mean that I agree with every person who disagrees with the 911
>> > Commission Report.
>> >
>> >> Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
>> >> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
>> >> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
>> >> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
>> >> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
>> >> convince one to believe the other story.
>> >>
>> >> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
>> >> decide the debate here or in the world at large.
>> >
>> >   Given that he did just post his pictures... the fact remains there is
>> > no
>> > compelling evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.  Any reasoning
>> > individual would question the fact that something as big as a plane
>> > would
>> > likely leave incontrovertible evidence if it struck such an important
>> > building in such a crowded area.  Charles claims he did see a plane, and
>> > one
>> > interesting thing I just noticed on the CNN video- this person is saying
>> > the
>> > the plane 'stopped short' of the Pentagon, so does seem to agree that a
>> > plane was there as Charles corroborates.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>  The believers will
>> >> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
>> >> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
>> >> relat

Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  there were some stories where some of the survivors of the Pentagon scene
were actually watching the WTC news coverage when the 
struck the Pentagon. -jmz

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I guess the real question is why did the people in the pentagon and
> the trade centers stay in the same spot when they say the planes
> coming!!! everyone should run!!!
> (joking)
>
> Thanks,
> Dan Lund
> It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
> to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
> act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
> free scope.
> -Niccolo Machiavelli
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to
> an
> >> > objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have
> >> > been
> >> > quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
> >> > threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
> >> >
> >> >   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have
> >> > someone
> >> > right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce
> >> > it is
> >> > a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when
> he
> >> > posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post
> >> > the
> >> > pictures.
> >>
> >> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
> >>
> >> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
> >> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
> >> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
> >>
> >> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
> >> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
> >> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
> >> or something and therefore not a ghost.
> >>
> >> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
> >> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
> >> They each see their own truth.
> >
> >   just a quick point... its an asymmetrical conflict.  On one hand you
> have
> > an 'official' investigation with a (semi) consistent story and credible
> > official testimony.  On the other hand you have a mob of angry theorists
> > speaking at varying levels of anonymity, some which may be correct, all
> > being considered as one group that shares the same level of credibility.
>  I
> > certainly feel there is some kind of subterfuge going on here, but that
> > doesn't mean that I agree with every person who disagrees with the 911
> > Commission Report.
> >
> >> Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
> >> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
> >> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
> >> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
> >> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
> >> convince one to believe the other story.
> >>
> >> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
> >> decide the debate here or in the world at large.
> >
> >   Given that he did just post his pictures... the fact remains there is
> no
> > compelling evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.  Any reasoning
> > individual would question the fact that something as big as a plane would
> > likely leave incontrovertible evidence if it struck such an important
> > building in such a crowded area.  Charles claims he did see a plane, and
> one
> > interesting thing I just noticed on the CNN video- this person is saying
> the
> > the plane 'stopped short' of the Pentagon, so does seem to agree that a
> > plane was there as Charles corroborates.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>  The believers will
> >> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
> >> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
> >> relationships.
> >
> >   There is a controversy, and there is a truth behind it. -jmz
> >
> >
> > --
> > "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War
> IV
> > will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
> >
> > - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
> >
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

I guess the real question is why did the people in the pentagon and
the trade centers stay in the same spot when they say the planes
coming!!! everyone should run!!!
(joking)

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
>> > objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have
>> > been
>> > quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
>> > threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
>> >
>> >   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have
>> > someone
>> > right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce
>> > it is
>> > a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
>> > posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post
>> > the
>> > pictures.
>>
>> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
>>
>> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
>> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
>> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
>>
>> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
>> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
>> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
>> or something and therefore not a ghost.
>>
>> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
>> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
>> They each see their own truth.
>
>   just a quick point... its an asymmetrical conflict.  On one hand you have
> an 'official' investigation with a (semi) consistent story and credible
> official testimony.  On the other hand you have a mob of angry theorists
> speaking at varying levels of anonymity, some which may be correct, all
> being considered as one group that shares the same level of credibility.  I
> certainly feel there is some kind of subterfuge going on here, but that
> doesn't mean that I agree with every person who disagrees with the 911
> Commission Report.
>
>> Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
>> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
>> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
>> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
>> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
>> convince one to believe the other story.
>>
>> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
>> decide the debate here or in the world at large.
>
>   Given that he did just post his pictures... the fact remains there is no
> compelling evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.  Any reasoning
> individual would question the fact that something as big as a plane would
> likely leave incontrovertible evidence if it struck such an important
> building in such a crowded area.  Charles claims he did see a plane, and one
> interesting thing I just noticed on the CNN video- this person is saying the
> the plane 'stopped short' of the Pentagon, so does seem to agree that a
> plane was there as Charles corroborates.
>
>
>>
>>  The believers will
>> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
>> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
>> relationships.
>
>   There is a controversy, and there is a truth behind it. -jmz
>
>
> --
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
> will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>
> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
> > objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have
> been
> > quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
> > threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
> >
> >   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have
> someone
> > right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce it
> is
> > a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
> > posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post the
> > pictures.
>
> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
>
> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
>
> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
> or something and therefore not a ghost.
>
> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
> They each see their own truth.


  just a quick point... its an asymmetrical conflict.  On one hand you have
an 'official' investigation with a (semi) consistent story and credible
official testimony.  On the other hand you have a mob of angry theorists
speaking at varying levels of anonymity, some which may be correct, all
being considered as one group that shares the same level of credibility.  I
certainly feel there is some kind of subterfuge going on here, but that
doesn't mean that I agree with every person who disagrees with the 911
Commission Report.

Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
> convince one to believe the other story.
>
> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
> decide the debate here or in the world at large.


  Given that he did just post his pictures... the fact remains there is no
compelling evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon.  Any reasoning
individual would question the fact that something as big as a plane would
likely leave incontrovertible evidence if it struck such an important
building in such a crowded area.  Charles claims he did see a plane, and one
interesting thing I just noticed on the CNN video- this person is saying the
the plane 'stopped short' of the Pentagon, so does seem to agree that a
plane was there as Charles corroborates.



>  The believers will
> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
> relationships.


  There is a controversy, and there is a truth behind it. -jmz


-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>
>   Charles: lets see the pictures.  You can end this discussion, along 
> with countless conspiracy theories right now by posting the pictures 
> you claim you have in your possession. 
>
>   you can either post the pictures, or many here will assume you are 
> lying.
I never said I had pictures of a/the plane. The plane roared by my 
window, and at the time, I thought "wtf is a plane doing flying this low 
in this area", but I had no idea what was going on. Probably 15 minutes 
had passed by the time any of us (there were 3 of us in the condo at the 
time) thought to grab a camera and run down the hallway to where we had 
a vantage point of the Pentagon, and by then of course there was nothing 
to see but the Pentagon on fire.

I said all of this, and included one of the pictures, in a reply last 
night, but it was moderated, I guess due to the attachment. I assume it 
is still in the moderator queue.

Again, the pictures I have are not anything earth shattering, as it was 
15 mins after impact, and I took them from "only" the 24th floor of my 
building which doesn't have a great angle of view.  If I had gone up a 
few floors or to the roof, the pics would probably be "cooler".

I don't like showing the pics because *every* time all I get is 
harassed, and things like:
* "You faked the EXIF data, according to  the plane crashed 
before/after your pics"
* "Your aparment was not in the flight path of the plane so you couldn't 
have seen it"
* "You were too far away to really see anything"
* "Photoshop!"
* "There is no record of a helicopter on the scene that fast"
* "That's not even the Pentagon, its just some brush fire"

And that is just a sample of the more civil comments. I can't prove that 
I saw the plane go by my window, or that by a twist of fate my 
girlfriend wasn't killed in the crash, but I don't really care who 
believes me or not, any more than I care if you believe that I was at 
Safeway last night shopping.  It is simply something I experienced, and 
just because I mention it, I get called everything from a liar to a govt 
conspirator. I honestly wish I had just somehow slept through it all, 
and could just speculate like everyone else.

Here is a gallery of some of the pics:  
http://www.the-ownage.com/gallery/Pentagon
Feel free to DOS my site, try to hack it, post spam comments etc, like 
everyone else does anytime I have pasted the link over the years.

-Charles

Again, the pics are not anything exciting, or conspiracy-bashing.
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

Let's just face it, in the end we're just going to bicker about it and
nothing will change because it's all just white noise.

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Alan Dayley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
>> objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have been
>> quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
>> threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
>>
>>   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have someone
>> right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce it is
>> a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
>> posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post the
>> pictures.
>
> Not-so-hypothetical situation:
>
> A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
> house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
> like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.
>
> The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
> this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
> reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
> or something and therefore not a ghost.
>
> Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
> Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
> They each see their own truth.
>
> Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
> the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
> two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
> the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
> confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
> convince one to believe the other story.
>
> If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
> decide the debate here or in the world at large.  The believers will
> continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
> in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
> relationships.
>
> Thanks all for keeping the discussion on a pretty even keel.  For
> myself, I'm going to make use of the OT: tag and my delete key for
> this discussion.  Probably.  :^)
>
> Alan
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Re: OT: remember

[Alan Dayley]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
> objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have been
> quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
> threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw
>
>   this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have someone
> right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce it is
> a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
> posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post the
> pictures.

Not-so-hypothetical situation:

A amateur photograph is presented.  Taken in a room of any abandoned
house, there is an artifact of light to one side that looks remarkably
like a see-through woman in an old fashioned dress.

The believer will point out all the reasons, some very logical, why
this is a picture of a ghost.  The skeptic will point out all the
reasons, some very logical, why it is some flare or flaw in the film
or something and therefore not a ghost.

Neither will convince the other, no matter how long they discuss.
Why?  Because they each see through their own prejudices and beliefs.
They each see their own truth.

Now to the topic at hand:  While I too question and wonder about all
the events surrounding 9/11/2001, I generally think the people on the
two extremes of the discussions will never reconcile.  And, no matter
the evidence presented, including silly government actions like
confiscating video and film, very few will ever change sides or
convince one to believe the other story.

If Charles does or does not produce photos, it will do little to
decide the debate here or in the world at large.  The believers will
continue to believe and the skeptics won't.  And if emotions run high
in an unproductive debate the only result will be broken
relationships.

Thanks all for keeping the discussion on a pretty even keel.  For
myself, I'm going to make use of the OT: tag and my delete key for
this discussion.  Probably.  :^)

Alan
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Re: OT: remember

[alexanderhenry]

Hugs!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn3HlSlXF8


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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I lived by the Pentagon Pre-2000, and all i have to say is where are
> the hundreds of people who where on the road driving right past it to
> say "yep, there was a plane!"
>
> Seriously?
>
> I have no doubts there was a plane, other than the impact crater.
> Something of that magnitude should be visible in action by hundreds of
> people easy.  Especially there.


  but the fact that these people haven't showed up would indicate to an
objective mind that perhaps we don't have the full story.  There have been
quite a few credible stories of 911 witnesses being harassed and
threatened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZ_K67OHWw

  this isn't a new take on this subject, but the fact that we have someone
right here who claims to possess such evidence, but refuses to produce it is
a bit disconcerting.  His alibi: that people mock and deride him when he
posts the pictures.  If anything he will be mocked if he doesn't post the
pictures.

  -jmz


>
> Thanks,
> Dan Lund
> It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
> to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
> act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
> free scope.
> -Niccolo Machiavelli
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Charles Jones
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Not hitting, I would have to have been psychic to have been rolling for
> that
> > (ironically it would probably just be more "proof" that it was fake
> info).
> > The plane went right by my condo, I got a good view of it out of my
> window
> > as it passed.  By the time my roomate and I got a camera it had already
> hit
> > and the Pentagon was on fire. I also saw the plane that was sent to do a
> > flyby of the area, which for some time was denied to have happened.
> >
> > ...so yes, I didn't see the actual *impact* so the evil overlords could
> > indeed have just flown a plane over, and fired their Global Hawk at the
> same
> > time, and then high-tailed the plane out of there (the most common theory
> > suggested to me).
> >
> > My girlfriend at the time was a contractor for the Pentagon
> reconstruction
> > project, and that day was due to do a walk-through of the exact area that
> > was destroyed. As luck would have it, she had spent the night at my place
> > that night, and was running late to work.  If she had gone to work from
> > home, on time as usual, she would likely have been killed that day. Just
> > another way that she and I will never forget that day!
> >
> > -Charles
> >
> > Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> >
> >   you have pictures/video of a plane hitting the Pentagon?
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Charles Jones
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I
> >> was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually
> told
> >> me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal that it
> was
> >> a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it incredible that
> these
> >> people who have never even been within 2000 miles of ground zero or the
> >> Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow mistaken about what happened
> >> there that day. I think for some people it's just more "fun" to believe
> a
> >> conspiracy because there is nothing else to do. I say fun because, man,
> I
> >> gotta think that if someone *truly* believed that our govt would kill
> >> thousands of people in broad daylight for some hidden agenda, that they
> >> would be afraid to even step outside of their house or own anything that
> >> would have them "on the grid".
> >>
> >> -Charles
> >
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

Enough with the term "conspiracy theorist".
A person who has altering views of what you believe is not a
conspiracy theorist.

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>   Charles: lets see the pictures.  You can end this discussion, along with
> countless conspiracy theories right now by posting the pictures you claim
> you have in your possession.
>
>   the conspiracy theorists go nuts because the fact is that there are no
> pictures of the plane, despite it supposedly happening in plain sight (no
> pun intended).  In addition there are MANY casual observers who said that
> there was no plane.  If you say it is preposterous that the government could
> cover up something so big so efficiently, the fact is we have such proof of
> this capability right here, because if we believe that a plane did in fact
> hit the pentagon, they managed to censor all photographs and any other
> evidence of this occurance to the general public.
>
>   the result of a 3 minute web search:
>
>   witness of extra explosions after the 'impact'.
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEGSTBOl37c
>
>   CNN reports that there is no evidence a plane hit the pentagon:
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFz7gLz7CVk&feature=related
>
>   while I am not siding with these testimonies, they are are credible enough
> to warrant consideration.
>
>   you can either post the pictures, or many here will assume you are lying.
>
>   -jmz
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Charles Jones
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Dan Lund wrote:
>> > I lived by the Pentagon Pre-2000, and all i have to say is where are
>> > the hundreds of people who where on the road driving right past it to
>> > say "yep, there was a plane!"
>> >
>> > Seriously?
>> >
>> Yeah that bugs me too...the plane flew right over the 395 and literally
>> knocked down some light poles on the way...you'd think at least a
>> handful of people where *right there* in their cars as it happened...why
>> aren't they giving interviews or writing a book about it or something.
>> ---
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>
>
>
> --
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
> will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>
> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>
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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  Charles: lets see the pictures.  You can end this discussion, along with
countless conspiracy theories right now by posting the pictures you claim
you have in your possession.

  the conspiracy theorists go nuts because the fact is that there are no
pictures of the plane, despite it supposedly happening in plain sight (no
pun intended).  In addition there are MANY casual observers who said that
there was no plane.  If you say it is preposterous that the government could
cover up something so big so efficiently, the fact is we have such proof of
this capability right here, because if we believe that a plane did in fact
hit the pentagon, they managed to censor all photographs and any other
evidence of this occurance to the general public.

  the result of a 3 minute web search:

  witness of extra explosions after the 'impact'.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEGSTBOl37c

  CNN reports that there is no evidence a plane hit the pentagon:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFz7gLz7CVk&feature=related

  while I am not siding with these testimonies, they are are credible enough
to warrant consideration.

  you can either post the pictures, or many here will assume you are lying.

  -jmz



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Charles Jones <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dan Lund wrote:
> > I lived by the Pentagon Pre-2000, and all i have to say is where are
> > the hundreds of people who where on the road driving right past it to
> > say "yep, there was a plane!"
> >
> > Seriously?
> >
> Yeah that bugs me too...the plane flew right over the 395 and literally
> knocked down some light poles on the way...you'd think at least a
> handful of people where *right there* in their cars as it happened...why
> aren't they giving interviews or writing a book about it or something.
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Dan Lund wrote:
> I lived by the Pentagon Pre-2000, and all i have to say is where are
> the hundreds of people who where on the road driving right past it to
> say "yep, there was a plane!"
>
> Seriously?
>   
Yeah that bugs me too...the plane flew right over the 395 and literally 
knocked down some light poles on the way...you'd think at least a 
handful of people where *right there* in their cars as it happened...why 
aren't they giving interviews or writing a book about it or something.
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

I lived by the Pentagon Pre-2000, and all i have to say is where are
the hundreds of people who where on the road driving right past it to
say "yep, there was a plane!"

Seriously?

I have no doubts there was a plane, other than the impact crater.
Something of that magnitude should be visible in action by hundreds of
people easy.  Especially there.

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Charles Jones
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not hitting, I would have to have been psychic to have been rolling for that
> (ironically it would probably just be more "proof" that it was fake info).
> The plane went right by my condo, I got a good view of it out of my window
> as it passed.  By the time my roomate and I got a camera it had already hit
> and the Pentagon was on fire. I also saw the plane that was sent to do a
> flyby of the area, which for some time was denied to have happened.
>
> ...so yes, I didn't see the actual *impact* so the evil overlords could
> indeed have just flown a plane over, and fired their Global Hawk at the same
> time, and then high-tailed the plane out of there (the most common theory
> suggested to me).
>
> My girlfriend at the time was a contractor for the Pentagon reconstruction
> project, and that day was due to do a walk-through of the exact area that
> was destroyed. As luck would have it, she had spent the night at my place
> that night, and was running late to work.  If she had gone to work from
> home, on time as usual, she would likely have been killed that day. Just
> another way that she and I will never forget that day!
>
> -Charles
>
> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>
>   you have pictures/video of a plane hitting the Pentagon?
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Charles Jones
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I
>> was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually told
>> me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal that it was
>> a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it incredible that these
>> people who have never even been within 2000 miles of ground zero or the
>> Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow mistaken about what happened
>> there that day. I think for some people it's just more "fun" to believe a
>> conspiracy because there is nothing else to do. I say fun because, man, I
>> gotta think that if someone *truly* believed that our govt would kill
>> thousands of people in broad daylight for some hidden agenda, that they
>> would be afraid to even step outside of their house or own anything that
>> would have them "on the grid".
>>
>> -Charles
>
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Re: OT: remember

[Dan Lund]

That's hilarious... a person calling someone dumb for having differing
viewpoints with pictures ahha

Thanks,
Dan Lund
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it
to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to
act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have
free scope.
-Niccolo Machiavelli



On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:38 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
>
> Guess I was wrong.
>
>  Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hachow,
>>
>> http://loosechange911.com/blog/
>>
>> --
>> Thanks and best regards,
>> Ryan Rix
>>
>> And I'm-a dancin' with myself
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
>> > remember 09.11.2001
>> >
>> > -j
>> > http://computeristsolutions.com
>>
>>
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Re: OT: remember

[alexanderhenry]

No more flames.  Just hugs.

I'm flying Silent Ravyn down to give everyone hugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sn3reO5V0o

-- 
Alexander
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 18:53 -0700, Charles Jones wrote:
  

Craig White wrote:


there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
own government...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
  
  
The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It 
involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from 
outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow 
involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and 
successfully keeping it secret.


Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people, 
or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of 
this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that 
the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving 
so many people.



the second sentence in the link above says otherwise...perhaps you need
to fix the wikipedia entry since you obviously know more.
  
It does indeed: "The plan called for CIA 
 or other 
operatives to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. 
cities to create public support for a war against Castro 
-led Cuba 
.".  Consider that sentence was 
written by the person who made the article, so there is no need to take 
that sentence as evidence of what the plan was. The /actual plan/, 
(which is an actual document, and not just some offhand statement made 
by someone on the internet), clearly depicts using deception but no 
actual killing. :P
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Re: OT: remember

[Robert Holtzman]

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Charles Jones wrote:

> Craig White wrote:
>
> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people,
> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of
> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that
> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving
> so many people.

Sure they could. After all they did such a marvelous job of planning the 
aftermath to the Iraq war didn"t they?

-- 
Bob Holtzman
A day without fusion is like, a day without sunshine
If it smells it's chemistry, if it crawls it's biology, if it doesn't
work it's physics

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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  Well if Charles has photographic proof of a plane wreckage, that is on par
with the Zapruder film because there are no such pics in the public domain
to my knowledge.  He is not making a minor claim.

  I tend to believe him as well, just by the character of his writings.  But
on the other hand, I'm not sure that he recognizes the gravity of his
claim.  It is true that video evidence shot from nearby hotels was
confiscated.

 -jmz

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Josh Coffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> Charles is right.  Pics or no (and I do believe him) people have mostly
> made up their minds and won't believe anything proving the contrary anyway.
>
> Indeed I did not expect such a long thread.  I was only expressing the
> memory this date invokes with me in a way I thought was fair but firm.
>
> The science of the whole thing exists and is clear.  By now, there probably
> isn't anyone left who will be swayed one way or the other by witness, fact,
> and science.  In my opinion, it comes down to a question of faith if one is
> unwilling to believe fact.
>
> Do you believe that evil people wanted to and did attack and kill thousands
> of Americans?  Or do you believe that the Bush administration which took
> office in the end of January of 01 planned, prepped, and executed the
> perfect demolition of two (assuming the others were accidental) very large
> and fortified buildings?  ..and that this organized and necessarily broad
> scoped conspiracy has been successfully kept secret by the same federal gov
> that can't get healthcare, social security, or bridge construction right?
>
> I know what I believe and why, and I respect all of you in this group as
> well as your right to whatever opinion you choose.  I think it's worthwhile
> to question and examine life, including your own opinions.
>
> "Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead" - Mark Twain
>
> -j
>
> /over & out of this thread
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>>
>>   Lets put the conspiracy theories to rest.
>>
>>   Lets see the pics.
>>
>>   -jmz
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Charles Jones <
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Craig White wrote:
>>> > there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
>>> > civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of
>>> our
>>> > own government...
>>> >
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
>>> >
>>> The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It
>>> involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from
>>> outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow
>>> involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and
>>> successfully keeping it secret.
>>>
>>> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people,
>>> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of
>>> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that
>>> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving
>>> so many people.
>>>
>>> -Charles
>>>
>>> ---
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War
>> IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>>
>> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>>
>> ---
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>
>
>
> --
> Josh | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://computeristsolutions.com
>
>
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[jdawg]

I will say here, that there are skeptics everywhere. There are still 
people out there (one of them including my 24 year old son, 
unfortunately), that believe we never went to moon in 1969 either.




Josh Coffman wrote:
> Charles is right.  Pics or no (and I do believe him) people have 
> mostly made up their minds and won't believe anything proving the 
> contrary anyway.
>
> Indeed I did not expect such a long thread.  I was only expressing the 
> memory this date invokes with me in a way I thought was fair but firm.
>
> The science of the whole thing exists and is clear.  By now, there 
> probably isn't anyone left who will be swayed one way or the other by 
> witness, fact, and science.  In my opinion, it comes down to a 
> question of faith if one is unwilling to believe fact.
>
> Do you believe that evil people wanted to and did attack and kill 
> thousands of Americans?  Or do you believe that the Bush 
> administration which took office in the end of January of 01 planned, 
> prepped, and executed the perfect demolition of two (assuming the 
> others were accidental) very large and fortified buildings?  ..and 
> that this organized and necessarily broad scoped conspiracy has been 
> successfully kept secret by the same federal gov that can't get 
> healthcare, social security, or bridge construction right?
>
> I know what I believe and why, and I respect all of you in this group 
> as well as your right to whatever opinion you choose.  I think it's 
> worthwhile to question and examine life, including your own opinions.
>
> "Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead" - Mark Twain
>
> -j
>
> /over & out of this thread
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
>
>   Lets put the conspiracy theories to rest. 
>
>   Lets see the pics.
>
>   -jmz
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Charles Jones
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> Craig White wrote:
> > there are documented moments when such acts (killing
> innocent American
> > civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by
> members of our
> > own government...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
> >
> The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely
> deception. It
> involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far
> cry from
> outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings,
> and somehow
> involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and
> successfully keeping it secret.
>
> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent
> people,
> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore"
> version of
> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time
> believing that
> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan,
> involving
> so many people.
>
> -Charles
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> 
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but
> World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>
> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>
> ---
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> 
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Josh | [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  | http://computeristsolutions.com
>
> 
>
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-- 
Happy Trails!
Jerry (K7AZJ)
Hobbit Name: Pimpernel Loamsdown
Registered Linux User: 275424
This email's random fortune: 

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Re: OT: remember

[Josh Coffman]

Charles is right.  Pics or no (and I do believe him) people have mostly made
up their minds and won't believe anything proving the contrary anyway.

Indeed I did not expect such a long thread.  I was only expressing the
memory this date invokes with me in a way I thought was fair but firm.

The science of the whole thing exists and is clear.  By now, there probably
isn't anyone left who will be swayed one way or the other by witness, fact,
and science.  In my opinion, it comes down to a question of faith if one is
unwilling to believe fact.

Do you believe that evil people wanted to and did attack and kill thousands
of Americans?  Or do you believe that the Bush administration which took
office in the end of January of 01 planned, prepped, and executed the
perfect demolition of two (assuming the others were accidental) very large
and fortified buildings?  ..and that this organized and necessarily broad
scoped conspiracy has been successfully kept secret by the same federal gov
that can't get healthcare, social security, or bridge construction right?

I know what I believe and why, and I respect all of you in this group as
well as your right to whatever opinion you choose.  I think it's worthwhile
to question and examine life, including your own opinions.

"Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead" - Mark Twain

-j

/over & out of this thread


On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Joshua Zeidner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>   Lets put the conspiracy theories to rest.
>
>   Lets see the pics.
>
>   -jmz
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Charles Jones <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Craig White wrote:
>> > there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
>> > civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
>> > own government...
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
>> >
>> The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It
>> involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from
>> outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow
>> involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and
>> successfully keeping it secret.
>>
>> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people,
>> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of
>> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that
>> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving
>> so many people.
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War
> IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein
>
> - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
>
> ---
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Re: OT: remember

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 18:53 -0700, Charles Jones wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
> > there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
> > civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
> > own government...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
> >   
> The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It 
> involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from 
> outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow 
> involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and 
> successfully keeping it secret.
> 
> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people, 
> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of 
> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that 
> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving 
> so many people.

the second sentence in the link above says otherwise...perhaps you need
to fix the wikipedia entry since you obviously know more.

As for our governments' ability to pull off a complex hoax as
justification for war...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

Me...I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all of the WMD in
Iraq

Craig

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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  Lets put the conspiracy theories to rest.

  Lets see the pics.

  -jmz

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Charles Jones <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Craig White wrote:
> > there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
> > civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
> > own government...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
> >
> The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It
> involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from
> outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow
> involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and
> successfully keeping it secret.
>
> Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people,
> or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of
> this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that
> the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving
> so many people.
>
> -Charles
>
> ---
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[tjones136]

You trimmed the conspiracy kook link I was responding to out of the thread when 
composing your reply.

That _is_ what I was referring to, just so there's no question.

 Craig White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 19:38 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
> > 
> > Guess I was wrong.
> 
> I honestly don't know to what you were referring to but some of the
> responses lead me to believe that the reference was to the various
> theories that 9/11 was some type of conspiracy by our own government.
> 
> While I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe that our
> government was complicit, it certainly isn't beyond possibility and
> there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
> civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
> own government...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
> 
> food for thought - but this is a Linux list
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Craig White wrote:
> there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
> civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
> own government...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
>   
The Northwoods "plan", while indeed ludicrous, was purely deception. It 
involved NO KILLING WHATSOEVER.  This elaborate play is a far cry from 
outright killing thousands of people, destroying buildings, and somehow 
involving and coordinating thousands of others in a plot and 
successfully keeping it secret.

Was this plan rediculous? Yes. Did it involve killing innocent people, 
or even enemies? No.  Could 9-11 be just a more "hardcore" version of 
this plan? Anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing that 
the govt would be capable of pulling off such an complex plan, involving 
so many people.

-Charles

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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  Charles, thanks for the response.  Are they online right now?  -jmz

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Charles Jones <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Patrick Jacques wrote:
>
> Pics/Vid or STFU
>
> Considering what "STFU" stands for, I think your response is highly
> inappropriate and aggressive. I seriously hope you are just joking, as I am
> sick and tired of "internet tough guys", and especially of being called a
> liar about things that I saw, so I am probably overreacting as well.
> Personally I don't swear at someone unless I am really upset or just want to
> fight. :P
>
> The pics and vids have been online in my image gallery for years. Anytime I
> have brought them out by request all I hear is how I could have faked the
> EXIF data, how I was "too far away", etc. Honestly I'm tired of defending
> myself just for having been in a particular place at a particular time. All
> the folks who give me hell over it, it is obvious to me that no matter what
> evidence there was, they would not believe it, which goes back to my point
> that some people would rather believe a conspiracy for whatever reason.
>
> -Charles
>
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Patrick Jacques wrote:

Pics/Vid or STFU
Considering what "STFU" stands for, I think your response is highly 
inappropriate and aggressive. I seriously hope you are just joking, as I 
am sick and tired of "internet tough guys", and especially of being 
called a liar about things that I saw, so I am probably overreacting as 
well. Personally I don't swear at someone unless I am really upset or 
just want to fight. :P


The pics and vids have been online in my image gallery for years. 
Anytime I have brought them out by request all I hear is how I could 
have faked the EXIF data, how I was "too far away", etc. Honestly I'm 
tired of defending myself just for having been in a particular place at 
a particular time. All the folks who give me hell over it, it is obvious 
to me that no matter what evidence there was, they would not believe it, 
which goes back to my point that some people would rather believe a 
conspiracy for whatever reason.


-Charles
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Re: OT: remember

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 19:38 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
> 
> Guess I was wrong.

I honestly don't know to what you were referring to but some of the
responses lead me to believe that the reference was to the various
theories that 9/11 was some type of conspiracy by our own government.

While I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe that our
government was complicit, it certainly isn't beyond possibility and
there are documented moments when such acts (killing innocent American
civilians on American soil) were actually contemplated by members of our
own government...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

food for thought - but this is a Linux list

Craig

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Re: OT: remember

[Patrick Jacques]

Pics/Vid or STFU



Charles Jones wrote:

  
It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I
was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually
told me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal
that it was a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it
incredible that these people who have never even been within 2000 miles
of ground zero or the Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow
mistaken about what happened there that day. I think for some people
it's just more "fun" to believe a conspiracy because there is nothing
else to do. I say fun because, man, I gotta think that if someone
*truly* believed that our govt would kill thousands of people in broad
daylight for some hidden agenda, that they would be afraid to even step
outside of their house or own anything that would have them "on the
grid". 
  
-Charles
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.

Guess I was wrong.

 Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
  

  Hachow,

http://loosechange911.com/blog/

--
Thanks and best regards,
Ryan Rix

And I'm-a dancin' with myself




On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:

  
remember 09.11.2001

-j
http://computeristsolutions.com
  
  
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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  To my knowledge there is no public pictures that clearly show a plane in
the wreckage.  If you have such a photo I'd certainly like to see it.

  -jmz

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Charles Jones <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Not hitting, I would have to have been psychic to have been rolling for
> that (ironically it would probably just be more "proof" that it was fake
> info).  The plane went right by my condo, I got a good view of it out of my
> window as it passed.  By the time my roomate and I got a camera it had
> already hit and the Pentagon was on fire. I also saw the plane that was sent
> to do a flyby of the area, which for some time was denied to have happened.
>
> ...so yes, I didn't see the actual *impact* so the evil overlords could
> indeed have just flown a plane over, and fired their Global Hawk at the same
> time, and then high-tailed the plane out of there (the most common theory
> suggested to me).
>
> My girlfriend at the time was a contractor for the Pentagon reconstruction
> project, and that day was due to do a walk-through of the exact area that
> was destroyed. As luck would have it, she had spent the night at my place
> that night, and was running late to work.  If she had gone to work from
> home, on time as usual, she would likely have been killed that day. Just
> another way that she and I will never forget that day!
>
> -Charles
>
> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>
>   you have pictures/video of a plane hitting the Pentagon?
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Charles Jones <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I
>> was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually told
>> me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal that it was
>> a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it incredible that these
>> people who have never even been within 2000 miles of ground zero or the
>> Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow mistaken about what happened
>> there that day. I think for some people it's just more "fun" to believe a
>> conspiracy because there is nothing else to do. I say fun because, man, I
>> gotta think that if someone *truly* believed that our govt would kill
>> thousands of people in broad daylight for some hidden agenda, that they
>> would be afraid to even step outside of their house or own anything that
>> would have them "on the grid".
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>
>
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-- 
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will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

Not hitting, I would have to have been psychic to have been rolling for 
that (ironically it would probably just be more "proof" that it was fake 
info).  The plane went right by my condo, I got a good view of it out of 
my window as it passed.  By the time my roomate and I got a camera it 
had already hit and the Pentagon was on fire. I also saw the plane that 
was sent to do a flyby of the area, which for some time was denied to 
have happened.


...so yes, I didn't see the actual *impact* so the evil overlords could 
indeed have just flown a plane over, and fired their Global Hawk at the 
same time, and then high-tailed the plane out of there (the most common 
theory suggested to me). 

My girlfriend at the time was a contractor for the Pentagon 
reconstruction project, and that day was due to do a walk-through of the 
exact area that was destroyed. As luck would have it, she had spent the 
night at my place that night, and was running late to work.  If she had 
gone to work from home, on time as usual, she would likely have been 
killed that day. Just another way that she and I will never forget that day!


-Charles

Joshua Zeidner wrote:

  you have pictures/video of a plane hitting the Pentagon?

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Charles Jones 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon
strike, I was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people
have actually told me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I
wouldn't reveal that it was a "global hawk" that hit and not a
plane. I find it incredible that these people who have never even
been within 2000 miles of ground zero or the Pentagon, are telling
ME that I am somehow mistaken about what happened there that day.
I think for some people it's just more "fun" to believe a
conspiracy because there is nothing else to do. I say fun because,
man, I gotta think that if someone *truly* believed that our govt
would kill thousands of people in broad daylight for some hidden
agenda, that they would be afraid to even step outside of their
house or own anything that would have them "on the grid".

-Charles



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Re: OT: remember

[Joshua Zeidner]

  you have pictures/video of a plane hitting the Pentagon?

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Charles Jones <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I
> was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually told
> me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal that it was
> a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it incredible that these
> people who have never even been within 2000 miles of ground zero or the
> Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow mistaken about what happened
> there that day. I think for some people it's just more "fun" to believe a
> conspiracy because there is nothing else to do. I say fun because, man, I
> gotta think that if someone *truly* believed that our govt would kill
> thousands of people in broad daylight for some hidden agenda, that they
> would be afraid to even step outside of their house or own anything that
> would have them "on the grid".
>
> -Charles
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.
>
> Guess I was wrong.
>
>  Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>  Hachow,
> http://loosechange911.com/blog/
>
> --
> Thanks and best regards,
> Ryan Rix
>
> And I'm-a dancin' with myself
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
>
>
>  remember 09.11.2001
>
> -jhttp://computeristsolutions.com
>
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-- 
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

- http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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Re: OT: remember

[Charles Jones]

It can be fun sometimes...I was an eyewitness to the pentagon strike, I 
was *there*, I have pictures, and video, and yet people have actually 
told me that I was brainwashed by the govt so that I wouldn't reveal 
that it was a "global hawk" that hit and not a plane. I find it 
incredible that these people who have never even been within 2000 miles 
of ground zero or the Pentagon, are telling ME that I am somehow 
mistaken about what happened there that day. I think for some people 
it's just more "fun" to believe a conspiracy because there is nothing 
else to do. I say fun because, man, I gotta think that if someone 
*truly* believed that our govt would kill thousands of people in broad 
daylight for some hidden agenda, that they would be afraid to even step 
outside of their house or own anything that would have them "on the grid".


-Charles

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.

Guess I was wrong.

 Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
  

Hachow,

http://loosechange911.com/blog/

--
Thanks and best regards,
Ryan Rix

And I'm-a dancin' with myself




On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:


remember 09.11.2001

-j
http://computeristsolutions.com
  

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Re: OT: remember

[tjones136]

I didn't think there was still anyone dumb enough to believe that crap.

Guess I was wrong.

 Ryan Rix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Hachow,
> 
> http://loosechange911.com/blog/
> 
> --
> Thanks and best regards,
> Ryan Rix
> 
> And I'm-a dancin' with myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
> > remember 09.11.2001
> >
> > -j
> > http://computeristsolutions.com
> 
> 
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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Re: OT: remember

[Ryan Rix]

Hachow,

http://loosechange911.com/blog/

--
Thanks and best regards,
Ryan Rix

And I'm-a dancin' with myself




On Thursday 11 September 2008 10:33:36 am Josh Coffman wrote:
> remember 09.11.2001
>
> -j
> http://computeristsolutions.com


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