Re: PLUG governance, etc.
On Aug 6, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Alan Dayley wrote: Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. Personally, I'm on this list to ask and answer questions related to free software. I rarely make it to meetings. I just want a place to connect with smart technical people. PLUG (and this mailing list specifically) are exactly what I'm looking for in that regard. Who runs PLUG doesn't concern me in the least. I would happily contribute some money for servers, domain renewals, etc, if it were asked, but I'm not interested in more structure, governance, bylaws, and such. If you are, by all means proceed. It just doesn't strike me as a high priority. I would definitely prefer fewer political topics on the list, but I think the costs of more regulation would be higher than the benefits, so I'll continue to filter out the stuff I'm not interested in. This isn't because I don't care about politics, culture, law, and other issues which come up. (I've responded to a few of those kinds of threads, but more often I end up deleting a half-written response which doesn't say what I want it to.) I mainly avoid those threads because I think an email list is a pretty poor place to have real discussions of complex issues like this. A format like this serves mainly to let people trumpet their pet theories and bicker unproductively without actually hearing each other. Those among us who want to talk in more depth about those kinds of things would be better off making plans to get together in person regularly. (Stammtisch, anyone?) It's fun to argue politics! It's just not fun to do it online. The kinds of nuance you can fit into a face to face discussion are infinitely superior to email. alex PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 08:52 -0500, Alex Dean wrote: This isn't because I don't care about politics, culture, law, and other issues which come up. (I've responded to a few of those kinds of threads, but more often I end up deleting a half-written response which doesn't say what I want it to.) I mainly avoid those threads because I think an email list is a pretty poor place to have real discussions of complex issues like this. A format like this serves mainly to let people trumpet their pet theories and bicker unproductively without actually hearing each other. Those among us who want to talk in more depth about those kinds of things would be better off making plans to get together in person regularly. (Stammtisch, anyone?) It's fun to argue politics! It's just not fun to do it online. The kinds of nuance you can fit into a face to face discussion are infinitely superior to email. I don't have any desire to debate politics on PLUG. Some of them are related to Linux but clearly some are not. Issues of culture and law that are discussed on this list are probably more closely related to Linux. The only reason I ever get involved in the political discussions on this list is simply to challenge those who seem determined to spout their media driven views to the list because I cannot allow them to go on endlessly unchallenged. I personally don't see any reason for differences between meeting in person or meeting in lists for these discussions with one exception, when you are in person, you can walk away and on a list, you have to delete the messages because they are delivered. For the most part, I disagree that it is fun to argue politics anywhere. I am too often disappointed by people who get their information from cable news and/or talk radio and think that they are somehow informed. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
Thanks from me as well! -jmz On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Bob Elzerbob.el...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the info Alan, maybe we could create a web page on the server with the history of PLUG Az with some of this info. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Alan Dayley Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:35 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: PLUG governance, etc. Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. The Steering Committee --- PLUG has a Steering Committee, members in no particular order: - Hans, a.k.a. der.hans (p...@lufthans.com) is Committee Chair because we decided that he was. - Brian Cluff (br...@snaptek.com) still baby sits the server from time to time and was host of the East Side Meeting for many years. - Alexander Henry (alexanderhe...@cox.net) who, years ago, decided we needed Install Fest on a monthly basis, found a location and makes sure it happens. - Joseph Sinclair (plug-discuss...@stcaz.net) a very smart developer and good guy who fills in the gaps and provides great programming knowledge along with organizational skill. - Me, who has historically mastered the web site and hosted the Developer Meeting for 6 or so years. There was one other who moved from Arizona some time back. There have been others in the past who we thank. Other Volunteers --- There are others who help and do things, like Lisa, because they want to. Nothing in PLUG could happen without people like them. Authority --- The authority of the committee is perhaps derived, as Joshua pointed out, by owning the domain name and having root password on the server. There is no other authority structure. No bylaws or written rules. The group depends on the Steering Committee and defers to them to run the relatively small day-to-day issues and make meetings happen. If the group or a large part of the group were to want to take over or fork, what's to stop them? Nothing. Money --- PLUG has no legal entity to handle money. There isn't any. Events and Work --- PLUG has events and does any work because someone paid for it, worked it, promoted it. Or, nothing happens. My Comments --- Over the years I have researched and email or IRC interviewed participants of other LUGs. I made a special point to seek out LUGs that had problems resulting in dissolution or splits. The root cause of every LUG that experienced significant problems was power or money. No surprise, I suppose. This is big reason why PLUG has not gone the direction of formal structure and donations. It mostly avoids such problems. It also blocks some good things. Where there is passion, things happen. Where there is passion, disagreements happen. Any organization that wants to make things happen needs passion but must survive the conflicts that arise. How does one create such an organization without the down sides? You can't. The down sides will happen so many people turn to rules and by-laws, i.e. contracts, to minimize the down sides. I suppose it works for the most part or people would come up with new structures with which to do it. There are new ways to do these things but PLUG may not be able to handle it. I am beginning to accept that PLUG will not grow and thrive without a more formal structure and maybe even money. Scary thought to me, knowing the history of other LUGs and volunteer groups. At the same time, the risk may be worth it for the gains that could be made. The Points --- My point is that PLUG is what the members make of it. The Steering Committee has no legal means of controlling the group beyond persuasion and respect, if given. So, if anyone want to suggest a change, create something, push an agenda, please do. In an open and transparent manner. If anyone thinks the Steering Committee is out of line, doing wrong, whatever, please speak up. Right now PLUG is in a low passion mood, has been for a long time. (Except maybe politics!) If you have a passion for something Linux/FS/OSS related, speak up. Rather that then we just plod along, enjoying our Freedom only amongst ourselves. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
I have been active in the PLUG, attending at least 1 monthly meeting and putting on one security Lab for at least a year. Before that I was attending one meeting every other month for a year, and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE? On 8/5/09, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. The Steering Committee --- PLUG has a Steering Committee, members in no particular order: - Hans, a.k.a. der.hans (p...@lufthans.com) is Committee Chair because we decided that he was. - Brian Cluff (br...@snaptek.com) still baby sits the server from time to time and was host of the East Side Meeting for many years. - Alexander Henry (alexanderhe...@cox.net) who, years ago, decided we needed Install Fest on a monthly basis, found a location and makes sure it happens. - Joseph Sinclair (plug-discuss...@stcaz.net) a very smart developer and good guy who fills in the gaps and provides great programming knowledge along with organizational skill. - Me, who has historically mastered the web site and hosted the Developer Meeting for 6 or so years. There was one other who moved from Arizona some time back. There have been others in the past who we thank. Other Volunteers --- There are others who help and do things, like Lisa, because they want to. Nothing in PLUG could happen without people like them. Authority --- The authority of the committee is perhaps derived, as Joshua pointed out, by owning the domain name and having root password on the server. I have the root password on the server; I must be an Authority and Steering Committee member (or at least a mascot)? There is no other authority structure. No bylaws or written rules. The group depends on the Steering Committee and defers to them to run the relatively small day-to-day issues and make meetings happen. If the group or a large part of the group were to want to take over or fork, what's to stop them? Nothing. Gee, where is this documented? How does someone submit requests, beyond email, to You, Alexander, Alan and Hans? Money --- PLUG has no legal entity to handle money. There isn't any. Wait? It takes money to do everything right, beit create flyers, to stickers to tee shirts. Someone submits everything to the plug, yet members suffer because tee shirts aren't available and all events that take real assets must be supported by individuals? No really cool things get done for the plug without extreme human cost (like Hans who gives 110% himself). Events and Work --- PLUG has events and does any work because someone paid for it, worked it, promoted it. Or, nothing happens. Right! My Comments --- Over the years I have researched and email or IRC interviewed participants of other LUGs. I made a special point to seek out LUGs that had problems resulting in dissolution or splits. The root cause of every LUG that experienced significant problems was power or money. No surprise, I suppose. This is big reason why PLUG has not gone the direction of formal structure and donations. It mostly avoids such problems. That is simplistic thinking in the extreme. The problems you discovered were due to lack of growth and organization, not money, or non-profit status. I am 53, been working in Linux my whole life, and seen a great number of UGs in 3 states, so while you might use the money is the root of all evil argument this to rationalize your decision not to grow, it's patently false. Growth and organization, including structure for submitting volunteer program outlines, website upgrades, promotional flyers, tee shirts (coolness sells - without being able to expand creatively, people devolve to petty bickering and shadow agendas) is the glue for group geek fun. It also blocks some good things. Lack of a cohesive organization creates burnout; lack of growth creates the same crisis over and over with regards to the associated lack of organizational and personal success, etc. People like to make contributions; few even know who to make presentation submissions to. I.E. do we have to show up and ask Hans? Wait lurking on the PLUG list until Hans calls for presentations for an event in two weeks? Not all members can do that! At the very least, the structure needs to be defined on the website (including discussion of the Steering Committee). Optimally, each of the groups, East Side, West Side, HackFest, InstallFest needs an organizational forum or CMS in the Drupal site. Alternately a one button submission process for bursting PLUG promotional materials to sister email listservers is needed for the group administrators. How can PLUG grow unless people painstakingly promote
RE: PLUG governance, etc.
It must be a top secret men's organization, with a secret handshake and all that. :-) Spanky and Alfalfa, were the original members. lol -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Lisa Kachold Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:28 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: PLUG governance, etc. I have been active in the PLUG, attending at least 1 monthly meeting and putting on one security Lab for at least a year. Before that I was attending one meeting every other month for a year, and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE? On 8/5/09, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. The Steering Committee --- PLUG has a Steering Committee, members in no particular order: - Hans, a.k.a. der.hans (p...@lufthans.com) is Committee Chair because we decided that he was. - Brian Cluff (br...@snaptek.com) still baby sits the server from time to time and was host of the East Side Meeting for many years. - Alexander Henry (alexanderhe...@cox.net) who, years ago, decided we needed Install Fest on a monthly basis, found a location and makes sure it happens. - Joseph Sinclair (plug-discuss...@stcaz.net) a very smart developer and good guy who fills in the gaps and provides great programming knowledge along with organizational skill. - Me, who has historically mastered the web site and hosted the Developer Meeting for 6 or so years. There was one other who moved from Arizona some time back. There have been others in the past who we thank. Other Volunteers --- There are others who help and do things, like Lisa, because they want to. Nothing in PLUG could happen without people like them. Authority --- The authority of the committee is perhaps derived, as Joshua pointed out, by owning the domain name and having root password on the server. I have the root password on the server; I must be an Authority and Steering Committee member (or at least a mascot)? There is no other authority structure. No bylaws or written rules. The group depends on the Steering Committee and defers to them to run the relatively small day-to-day issues and make meetings happen. If the group or a large part of the group were to want to take over or fork, what's to stop them? Nothing. Gee, where is this documented? How does someone submit requests, beyond email, to You, Alexander, Alan and Hans? Money --- PLUG has no legal entity to handle money. There isn't any. Wait? It takes money to do everything right, beit create flyers, to stickers to tee shirts. Someone submits everything to the plug, yet members suffer because tee shirts aren't available and all events that take real assets must be supported by individuals? No really cool things get done for the plug without extreme human cost (like Hans who gives 110% himself). Events and Work --- PLUG has events and does any work because someone paid for it, worked it, promoted it. Or, nothing happens. Right! My Comments --- Over the years I have researched and email or IRC interviewed participants of other LUGs. I made a special point to seek out LUGs that had problems resulting in dissolution or splits. The root cause of every LUG that experienced significant problems was power or money. No surprise, I suppose. This is big reason why PLUG has not gone the direction of formal structure and donations. It mostly avoids such problems. That is simplistic thinking in the extreme. The problems you discovered were due to lack of growth and organization, not money, or non-profit status. I am 53, been working in Linux my whole life, and seen a great number of UGs in 3 states, so while you might use the money is the root of all evil argument this to rationalize your decision not to grow, it's patently false. Growth and organization, including structure for submitting volunteer program outlines, website upgrades, promotional flyers, tee shirts (coolness sells - without being able to expand creatively, people devolve to petty bickering and shadow agendas) is the glue for group geek fun. It also blocks some good things. Lack of a cohesive organization creates burnout; lack of growth creates the same crisis over and over with regards to the associated lack of organizational and personal success, etc. People like to make contributions; few even know who to make presentation submissions to. I.E. do we have to show up
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
I mostly just read the posts I'm interested in and occasionally ask a question. I think that PLUG works just fine as it is--If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Mark Jarvis Alan Dayley wrote: Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. The Steering Committee --- PLUG has a Steering Committee, members in no particular order: - Hans, a.k.a. der.hans (p...@lufthans.com) is Committee Chair because we decided that he was. - Brian Cluff (br...@snaptek.com) still baby sits the server from time to time and was host of the East Side Meeting for many years. - Alexander Henry (alexanderhe...@cox.net) who, years ago, decided we needed Install Fest on a monthly basis, found a location and makes sure it happens. - Joseph Sinclair (plug-discuss...@stcaz.net) a very smart developer and good guy who fills in the gaps and provides great programming knowledge along with organizational skill. - Me, who has historically mastered the web site and hosted the Developer Meeting for 6 or so years. There was one other who moved from Arizona some time back. There have been others in the past who we thank. Other Volunteers --- There are others who help and do things, like Lisa, because they want to. Nothing in PLUG could happen without people like them. Authority --- The authority of the committee is perhaps derived, as Joshua pointed out, by owning the domain name and having root password on the server. There is no other authority structure. No bylaws or written rules. The group depends on the Steering Committee and defers to them to run the relatively small day-to-day issues and make meetings happen. If the group or a large part of the group were to want to take over or fork, what's to stop them? Nothing. Money --- PLUG has no legal entity to handle money. There isn't any. Events and Work --- PLUG has events and does any work because someone paid for it, worked it, promoted it. Or, nothing happens. My Comments --- Over the years I have researched and email or IRC interviewed participants of other LUGs. I made a special point to seek out LUGs that had problems resulting in dissolution or splits. The root cause of every LUG that experienced significant problems was power or money. No surprise, I suppose. This is big reason why PLUG has not gone the direction of formal structure and donations. It mostly avoids such problems. It also blocks some good things. Where there is passion, things happen. Where there is passion, disagreements happen. Any organization that wants to make things happen needs passion but must survive the conflicts that arise. How does one create such an organization without the down sides? You can't. The down sides will happen so many people turn to rules and by-laws, i.e. contracts, to minimize the down sides. I suppose it works for the most part or people would come up with new structures with which to do it. There are new ways to do these things but PLUG may not be able to handle it. I am beginning to accept that PLUG will not grow and thrive without a more formal structure and maybe even money. Scary thought to me, knowing the history of other LUGs and volunteer groups. At the same time, the risk may be worth it for the gains that could be made. The Points --- My point is that PLUG is what the members make of it. The Steering Committee has no legal means of controlling the group beyond persuasion and respect, if given. So, if anyone want to suggest a change, create something, push an agenda, please do. In an open and transparent manner. If anyone thinks the Steering Committee is out of line, doing wrong, whatever, please speak up. Right now PLUG is in a low passion mood, has been for a long time. (Except maybe politics!) If you have a passion for something Linux/FS/OSS related, speak up. Rather that then we just plod along, enjoying our Freedom only amongst ourselves. Alan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
Wait? It takes money to do everything right, beit create flyers, to stickers to tee shirts. Someone submits everything to the plug, yet members suffer because tee shirts aren't available and all events that take real assets must be supported by individuals? No really cool things get done for the plug without extreme human cost (like Hans who gives 110% himself). we could set up something spiffy via cafepress? --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
Stephen wrote: Wait? It takes money to do everything right, beit create flyers, to stickers to tee shirts. Someone submits everything to the plug, yet members suffer because tee shirts aren't available and all events that take real assets must be supported by individuals? No really cool things get done for the plug without extreme human cost (like Hans who gives 110% himself). we could set up something spiffy via cafepress? I think that'd be pretty cool I would have no problem donating if we had a central fund that was controlled by more than one person. Hans talked a while ago in IRC about starting a nonprofit up, and I think that something like that, if associated with PLUG would be a boon to FOSS in Phoenix. Ryan -- --- Ryan Rix (623)-826-0051 DOS: n., A small annoying boot virus that causes random spontaneous system crashes, usually just before saving a massive project. Easily cured by UNIX. See also MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, DR-DOS. -- David Vicker's .plan http://hackersramblings.wordpress.com | http://twitter.com/phrkonaleash XMPP: phrkonale...@gmail.com | MSN: phrkonale...@yahoo.com AIM: phrkonaleash| Yahoo: phrkonaleash IRC: phrkon...@irc.freenode.net/#srcedit,#teensonlinux,#plugaz and countless other FOSS channels. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: PLUG governance, etc.
I agree with practically everything you've stated below. -jmz On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Lisa Kacholdlisakach...@obnosis.com wrote: I have been active in the PLUG, attending at least 1 monthly meeting and putting on one security Lab for at least a year. Before that I was attending one meeting every other month for a year, and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE? On 8/5/09, Alan Dayley ala...@consultpros.com wrote: Another thread about the sonoran penguin and making a theme for the website surfaced some discussion about the governance of PLUG. I'd like to enlighten that a little bit. The Steering Committee --- PLUG has a Steering Committee, members in no particular order: - Hans, a.k.a. der.hans (p...@lufthans.com) is Committee Chair because we decided that he was. - Brian Cluff (br...@snaptek.com) still baby sits the server from time to time and was host of the East Side Meeting for many years. - Alexander Henry (alexanderhe...@cox.net) who, years ago, decided we needed Install Fest on a monthly basis, found a location and makes sure it happens. - Joseph Sinclair (plug-discuss...@stcaz.net) a very smart developer and good guy who fills in the gaps and provides great programming knowledge along with organizational skill. - Me, who has historically mastered the web site and hosted the Developer Meeting for 6 or so years. There was one other who moved from Arizona some time back. There have been others in the past who we thank. Other Volunteers --- There are others who help and do things, like Lisa, because they want to. Nothing in PLUG could happen without people like them. Authority --- The authority of the committee is perhaps derived, as Joshua pointed out, by owning the domain name and having root password on the server. I have the root password on the server; I must be an Authority and Steering Committee member (or at least a mascot)? There is no other authority structure. No bylaws or written rules. The group depends on the Steering Committee and defers to them to run the relatively small day-to-day issues and make meetings happen. If the group or a large part of the group were to want to take over or fork, what's to stop them? Nothing. Gee, where is this documented? How does someone submit requests, beyond email, to You, Alexander, Alan and Hans? Money --- PLUG has no legal entity to handle money. There isn't any. Wait? It takes money to do everything right, beit create flyers, to stickers to tee shirts. Someone submits everything to the plug, yet members suffer because tee shirts aren't available and all events that take real assets must be supported by individuals? No really cool things get done for the plug without extreme human cost (like Hans who gives 110% himself). Events and Work --- PLUG has events and does any work because someone paid for it, worked it, promoted it. Or, nothing happens. Right! My Comments --- Over the years I have researched and email or IRC interviewed participants of other LUGs. I made a special point to seek out LUGs that had problems resulting in dissolution or splits. The root cause of every LUG that experienced significant problems was power or money. No surprise, I suppose. This is big reason why PLUG has not gone the direction of formal structure and donations. It mostly avoids such problems. That is simplistic thinking in the extreme. The problems you discovered were due to lack of growth and organization, not money, or non-profit status. I am 53, been working in Linux my whole life, and seen a great number of UGs in 3 states, so while you might use the money is the root of all evil argument this to rationalize your decision not to grow, it's patently false. Growth and organization, including structure for submitting volunteer program outlines, website upgrades, promotional flyers, tee shirts (coolness sells - without being able to expand creatively, people devolve to petty bickering and shadow agendas) is the glue for group geek fun. It also blocks some good things. Lack of a cohesive organization creates burnout; lack of growth creates the same crisis over and over with regards to the associated lack of organizational and personal success, etc. People like to make contributions; few even know who to make presentation submissions to. I.E. do we have to show up and ask Hans? Wait lurking on the PLUG list until Hans calls for presentations for an event in two weeks? Not all members can do that! At the very least, the structure needs to be defined on the website (including discussion of the Steering Committee). Optimally, each of the groups, East Side, West Side, HackFest, InstallFest needs an organizational forum or CMS in the Drupal site. Alternately a one button
