Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Vishal Rao]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 at 11:37, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay <
sankarshan.mukhopadh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:43 AM Tejas Sanap  wrote:
> >
> > Hey, folks!
> > I use plain IRC and for some reason that I can't explain, love it's
> > simplicity. I ran into a blog post today, that presented some
> > interesting perspectives on IRC and similar protocols (Matrix).
> >
> > https://drewdevault.com/2019/07/01/Absence-of-features-in-IRC.html
> >
> > I guess, IRC is an example of the "less is better, more is worse" case.
> > I would love to hear some of your point-of-views.
>
> The IRC/other-medium conversation is best looked at from the
> perspective of how software development in FOSS has evolved from
> communities to enterprises. In the latter, there are some distinct
> benefits to selection of tools that combine
> collaboration+notification+communication without much investments.
> Looking at IRC vs Slack in the same light of vi vs emacs is good
> method to while away time, but in the end, not generally productive.
>
> It would also be pertinent to consider that some of the large projects
> eg. Kubernetes etc adopt the established methods of their largest
> contributors and this weighs against the continuation of IRC
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IRC is kind of "stateless", right? Meaning you have to stay logged in to
not miss any messages? If I log out and log back in later on, I miss all
the messages that were posted in the interim? That is the main reason I
stopped using IRC and prefer email mailing lists or online forum discussion
platforms or things like Slack where you can see the messages even if you
log out and log back in later on.

-- 
"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page." - St.
Augustine.
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 15:08 Vishal Rao  wrote:

>
>

> IRC is kind of "stateless", right? Meaning you have to stay logged in to
> not miss any messages? If I log out and log back in later on, I miss all
> the messages that were posted in the interim? That is the main reason I
> stopped using IRC and prefer email mailing lists or online forum discussion
> platforms or things like Slack where you can see the messages even if you
> log out and log back in later on.
>

There's IRC bouncers which can be configured to enable the kind of
"presence" which you point out. Those are usually additional services -
either to be paid for, or, configured. Email continues to be a resilient
method of communication in projects. Regardless of the fact that every now
and then I read about the imminent demise of email as a medium for
discussion.

Slack and others don't lend themselves well to highly threaded or, long
form conversations. List software such as Mailman are also adding
enhancements which cater to some of the requirements around ease of
conversations.

>
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे]

> Slack and others don't lend themselves well to highly threaded or, long
> form conversations.
>

Has anyone used twist ? https://twist.com/tour (I have not)
One of the feature they keep talking about is threaded conversations.

-Mandar
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे
 wrote:
>
>> Slack and others don't lend themselves well to highly threaded or, long form 
>> conversations.
>
>
> Has anyone used twist ? https://twist.com/tour (I have not)
> One of the feature they keep talking about is threaded conversations.

Slack, Flock and a host of others lend themselves to threading (which,
by the way, isn't very "new", Google Wave had thread
)

The trouble with threading is when it becomes too deeply nested.
Visual selection and curation of items and topics become difficult.
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Tejas Sanap]

On Wed, Sep 04, 2019 at 03:33:49PM +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 15:08 Vishal Rao  wrote:
> 
> > IRC is kind of "stateless", right? Meaning you have to stay logged in to
> > not miss any messages? If I log out and log back in later on, I miss all
> > the messages that were posted in the interim? That is the main reason I
> > stopped using IRC and prefer email mailing lists or online forum discussion
> > platforms or things like Slack where you can see the messages even if you
> > log out and log back in later on.
Or, you can use a terminal-based IRC client like irssi or weechat and log in
on a server using tmux. Next time, tmux attach and tmux detach. Simple. 
You never have to log out.

> There's IRC bouncers which can be configured to enable the kind of
> "presence" which you point out. Those are usually additional services -
> either to be paid for, or, configured. Email continues to be a resilient
The main takeaway from the whole IRC/ZNC vs. Slack coversation, or rather
any software solution on Linux vs. On Mac/Windows, is that in the latter
case things "just work". Whereas, in the former case, you require a bit
of tweaking and hacking. This is the point where things go sour for many
users. As enthusiasts, we love a new challenge and throw ourselves at
it. But, a normal user only wants to do his work.

To be honest, I have given this topic a lot of thought, and the only way
to convince people to go with FOSS/Linux solutions, is to show them in
person how to do things.

As an example, I would suggest setting up "polybar". It's a custom
status bar that many people use alongside their minimalistic window
managers (like i3 or dwm). If, one wished to approach this task on their
own, it is highly likely that they would give up. But, if someone has
access to an in-depth and at the same time, easy tutorial such as [1]
and [2]... It will be a different story.

> Slack and others don't lend themselves well to highly threaded or, long
> form conversations. List software such as Mailman are also adding
> enhancements which cater to some of the requirements around ease of
> conversations.
There are a lot of interesting features in ZNC. For example, it will
automatically (and, temporarily) detach from an "inactive" channel. Or,
it allows for maintaining seperate buffers, channel-list for different
devices. But, such features, are rarely advertised. 
I maybe wrong here, but, as a "Linux Users Group" we should be helping
such projects "bridge the gap" between normal users and themselves.
Like, I know so many college "CS/IT" courses where students use vi/vim
as their editors, but the students never leave the "INSERT" mode. I
mean, that's just sad.

[1]: https://youtu.be/7RNgpvBMua0
[2]: https://youtu.be/OIjwl0MjfBA

-- 
Tejas Sanap.
(whereistejas on Freenode)
https://whereistejas.me
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे]

> as their editors, but the students never leave the "INSERT" mode.
>

Really? 🤔
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Re: [PLUG] Why folks using IRC are against "cool" and "new" features?

[Tejas Sanap]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2019, 10:50 Mandar Vaze / मंदार वझे, 
wrote:

>
> as their editors, but the students never leave the "INSERT" mode.
>>
>
> Really? 🤔
>

They use arrow keys and backspace key.

--
Tejas Sanap
(whereistejas)

>
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