Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

Michael Herger;253713 Wrote: 
 
 And why fill yet another datastructure in SC when you can add skins to
 plugins? Wouldn't it be enough for any plugin author wanting the
 ultimate functionality out of iPeng to add an iPeng folder with the
 templates in there? No need for additionalLinks.*iPeng.
 
 We should rather look at how we could fix these issues in the generic
 templates. Instead of asking _all_ plugin authors to change their
 plugin, we could discuss the real issues with their authors and find a
 solution which does work for most with the the least effort. If you
 don't you risk to be without plugin support really soon.
 
I agree with you Michael, however, at the moment I can say that none of
my plugins work good with the iPeng skin without adjustments. But the
preferable solution would definitely be if the plugins would work as
long as they use the standard components available in all skins.

Until we have these standard components that works with both iPeng,
Nokia770 and all the other skins my feeling is that the current
solution by using double registration in the additionalLinks hash is
acceptable. After all it will only make plugins that has been tested
available on iPeng.

I can understand that Joreg doesn't want his skin to look bad and
contain pages that doesn't work at all just because some plugin
developer hasn't done their work. As a plugin developer I can also say
that I don't want to support or try to help users that use a skin that
I haven't tested my plugin against. I've had some problems regarding
the Nokia770 skin earlier regarding this and I've also got reports that
some of my plugins doesn't work with the handheld skin. 

I'm pretty sure some of the problems are in my code and that I haven't
understand how to use the standard components.

Michael Herger;253713 Wrote: 
 
 Other than Erland's plugins I'm not sure there are many out there which
 would need a special skin at all.
I think you are correct regarding this. Most plugins have a pretty
simple web interface or even no web interface at all, some of mine
tends to have a more advanced user interface.

I'll try to create summary of the problems I've had during the Custom
Browse adaption to iPeng to get you some sort of feeling about the
problems. This could probably be some sort of start point of deciding
which standard components that are needed. The major problem are that
the screen is a lot smaller on the iPhone, so I can't show all the
information in iPeng which I show in the other skins. I'm guessing the
same problems probably also is applicable to the Nokia770/Touch skins
if I try to make my plugins work good with these.


-- 
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Erland Isaksson
'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page'
(http://erland.homeip.net/download)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
Custom Scan,  Custom Skip, Multi Library and Database Query plugins'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

Michael Herger;253718 Wrote: 
  If I have understand it correctly the purpose of the the controls
  attribute are:
  - leftcontrols: I want to place some control to the left of the text
  - rightcontrols: I want to place some control to the right of the
 text
  - controls: I just want a control but I really don't care where it's
  placed, the positioning is totally up to the skin to decide.
 
 The skin is always to decide. I think the styles' names sometimes are
 misleading. They were defined with a certain layout in mind, and used
 accordingly. Other skins use different layouts, but still have to rely
 on the same style names. Default displays all controls on the right
 hand side. Having some on the left, which most of the time are on the
 right imho is just confusing.
 
 Michael

Is there any recommendation which one I should use in the plugin pages
?
I would obviously like to use the same in all the skins if possible.
The controls I'm using are:
- Play/add buttons
- Edit buttons
- Mixer buttons
- Cover art icons (Although this is not implemented as a control at the
moment, it uses the same implementation as the default skin)

My thought is just that it might be confusing if one plugin puts the
play button in leftcontrols and another in rightcontrols.


-- 
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(http://erland.homeip.net/download)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
Custom Scan,  Custom Skip, Multi Library and Database Query plugins'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread Michael Herger
 I agree with you Michael, however, at the moment I can say that none of
 my plugins work good with the iPeng skin without adjustments. But the

But this doesn't need to be new perl code in the plugin itself? Why not just 
add an iPeng folder to your templates?

It's imho a plugin author's job to come up with the skins. But excluding _all_ 
plugins because _some_ need changes is imho gone too far. I'm sure simple 
output plugins like mine don't need any adjustment to be of some use, even if 
the layout probably isn't perfect.

 Until we have these standard components that works with both iPeng,
 Nokia770 and all the other skins my feeling is that the current
 solution by using double registration in the additionalLinks hash is
 acceptable. After all it will only make plugins that has been tested
 available on iPeng.

But do the others hurt? As long as there is a way to get back to a working 
screen I wouldn't bother excluding plugins.

 I can understand that Joreg doesn't want his skin to look bad and
 contain pages that doesn't work at all just because some plugin
 developer hasn't done their work.

It's not the skin looking bad, but the plugin.

 As a plugin developer I can also say
 that I don't want to support or try to help users that use a skin that
 I haven't tested my plugin against. I've had some problems regarding
 the Nokia770 skin earlier regarding this and I've also got reports that
 some of my plugins doesn't work with the handheld skin.

I think you should reconsider your pages' layout. Obviosuly you're doing stuff 
which isn't expected or which is just beyond the current templates 
possibilities. Does it have to be that complicated or could you simplify 
things? Regarding your recent posting about having too much code to maintain, 
it's probably worth a thought (BTW: I hear you well. I'm not able maintaining 
SlimCD and making it work with SC7 :-().

 I'll try to create summary of the problems I've had during the Custom
 Browse adaption to iPeng to get you some sort of feeling about the

That would be a good start. Thanks.

Michael
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

Here is a summary of the problems I was required to solve when adapting
Custom Browse to iPeng. Most of the issues here looks pretty related to
the browsedb.html page in the standard skin, the reason for this is of
course that the purpose of the Custom Browse plugin is to create custom
browse pages in addition to those available in SC as standard.

Joerg, just to make sure you don't interpret these issues as
complaints. The iPeng skin is currently the best remote control
interface I've ever seen for the SqueezeBox (including the Jive
prototype), so I really don't mind if it requires me to adjust my
plugins a bit.

1.
There isn't enough space to show all the mixer icons on the iPeng skin,
so I had to implement a single mixer icon that lists all available
mixers when you select it.

2.
There isn't enough space to show both add and play buttons on the iPeng
skin, so instead it just shows an add button. I think the suggestion
from Joerg is that hitting the title or cover art icon should result in
a play action.

3.
The iPeng skin has support for a vertical alpha letter page navigation
bar (corresponds to alphamap in the standard skins). 
The reason is two as I see it:
- It looks similar to the built-in music player of the iPhone/iPod
Touch
- By having a horizontal page navigation the letters can be displayed
with more space in-between making it eaiser to access the right letter
on the touch screen.
This caused some problem in my plugins since the corresponding
component doesn't exists in the standard skins. There is basically no
components available yet neither in the iPeng skin for this vertical
bar so I basically had to re-implement it in my plugin. 
The page navigation bar is displayed as:
- Standard horizontal bar with page numbers if the items isn't
alphabetic sorted
- Vertical bar with letters if the items are alphabetic sorted

4.
To make the plugin look good in the iPeng skin it is important that you
put everything inside standard component, if you try to use a p, div
or span it will often result in that it doesn't look to fit the style
of the rest of the page. This might be a stylesheet issue, but I'm not
completely sure.

5.
The iPeng skin has a move to top button in the footer which makes
sense in the iPeng skin but doesn't make a lot of sense in the new
default skin where we like to avoid extra clutter. There is currently
no component available for this button, so my plugin code currently
contains a copy of the necessary code.

6.
Custom Browse normaly displays a header on top each browse pages, for
example when you have selected an artists and lists its albums it shows
information about the artist in the header.
Here is a sample:
http://erland.homeip.net/arkiv/slimserver/custombrowse1.png
Anyway, the problem with this header is that it takes up too much space
on the iPeng skin. Currently I don't show the header at all but I'm
thinking that it might be a good idea to be able to access it by
clicking a button/link or something similar.

7.
There is not enough space available to show complete titles when they
are long, the current solution is that long titles are truncated with a
... at the end. This is obviously something that you don't want to
happen with the skins you use on a standard computer. There is a
truncate javascript function available through the iPeng skin, but the
plugin currently has to decide what to truncate and how many characters
to truncate it to.

8.
There is currently no standard way of handling the Sort by list box.
This looks differently in all the skins and on top of that I like to
replace the contents in it with my own and their corresponding links.
The result is that I currently have to handle this differently in
pretty much every skin available. I haven't done anything regarding
this in the iPeng skin yet, but I know that it will be another variant
in addition to the ones already available from the other skins.

9.
Some of the stuff in the iPeng skin is currently based on tables, while
most of the rest of the skins is based on divs and spans. The result is
that it is harder to get a single implementation to work with all skins
when you like to place divs/spans inside your plugin page. However, I've
managed to get this to work pretty good in Custom Browse with the iPeng
skin without having to revert to use table/td/tr elements.


-- 
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(http://erland.homeip.net/download)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread pippin

A few clarifications:

1. thanks for the perl explanation, I'll add that.
2. textlink. The problem is, this is an INVISIBLE control, that is, the
control is the full content field and you can just provide a link. What
do you need the other content for? You can have more than one JS
command.
3. useAjax=0. Can you explain me, what the result of this will be?
Rationale: I don't want to disable AJAX, in fact I use the AJAX
controls whereever I can, the problem is, that lots of plugins make
assumptions about the screen layout and UI when using AJAX.
4. 'controls': That's a bug, didn't remove it from a left side
condition when moving 'controls' to the right. I will change that. As a
fix you can change line 189 in cmdwrappers to
td class = listRow style = padding-left: 6px  [% IF !leftcontrols
%]colspan = 2[% END %]

The main point is a more general one, that you, Michael, probably don't
know because you - having no iPhone - haven't read my UI philosophy
article on penguinlovesmusic. So in brief:
I want this not just to be a skin that displays everything that can be
shown in SC, but i prefer it to be usable, which is not the case if I
just scale stuff. I tried the handheld skin, it's not usable on iPhone
IMHO.
I also made the conscious decision to use the iPhone UI philosophy
instead of the SC one wherever possible, yet that brings some changes.
I don't want to see lots of stuff that doesn't work. It's annoying for
the user. If a plugin developer writes me an e-mail stating my plugin
does this just fine, I've tested it and I don't wanna change it' I can
easily hardcode this by adding it to my hash of default plugins. My
experience so far has been, that most plugins display badly since most
define their own containers or make assumptions about the underlying
code. Favorites, for example, generates a list around the content where
I use a table, thus favorites completely screws up the layout. This is
not my fault, the plugin just doesn't comply to the cmdwrappers code
structure, which is no wonder since it's not really documented. My
experience is, that this is true for almost every plugin I stumble
upon.
Some of the changes in UI philosophy I made: I usually don't want to
see a play this button on the screen. It just takes up space and
annoys users used to iPhone because they are used to click on the item
text. Thus textlink. I could just hardcode the playcmd into the text
and remove the icon when I decide this is a playable item but I wanted
the plugin developer to be able to decide.
I can't just throw in a lot of controls somewhere on the side because
if you crowd them, you will always click on the wrong one. I repeatedly
hit the wrong one even with a mouse on the default skin this simply
doesn't work with the iPhone. They have to be manually positioned or
this at least has to be tested. The sense of positioning some of the
controls to the left and some to the right is not to accidentally click
the wrong one. The maximum number of controls acceptable on the right
side, in my view, is two, even that is a stretch!

Good discussion, anyway!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread Michael Herger
 But do the others hurt? As long as there is a way to get back to a
 working screen I wouldn't bother excluding plugins.

 It does. This is not a tech demo but expected to be usable. Sorry, but

Well, you've got the choice: get complaints about plugins not working in your 
skin. Or get complaints about plugins not available in your skin. Your answer 
in both cases will be the same: contact the plugin author - which is correct. 
But there will be more plugins missing than there would be breaking your skin.

 I will be strict on that: no untested stuff, there is nothing worse
 than a user stumbling about something that doesn't work, he can't know
 it's not his fault. It doesn't matter, whose fault it is, it results in
 unusable software.

Are we really talking about unusable software or rather layout glitches?

 No mention that this will leave you with a disfunctional system. I
 don't want any of this with iPeng, I prefer to omit functionality.

You do. Users don't. It's your choice, and it probably is the right choice from 
a developpers point of view. But users are left behind.

Michael

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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

Michael Herger;253745 Wrote: 
 
 
  I will be strict on that: no untested stuff, there is nothing worse
  than a user stumbling about something that doesn't work, he can't
 know
  it's not his fault. It doesn't matter, whose fault it is, it results
 in
  unusable software.
 
 Are we really talking about unusable software or rather layout
 glitches?
 
I can only answer for my own plugins. 
At the current implementation of iPeng and my own plugins we are
definitely talking about unusable software, not just layout glitches. 

I've tried iPeng with Custom Browse, TrackStat and Dynamic Playlist and
none of them was usable without adjustments. Of course it depends on
what you mean with layout glitches, but when something isn't shown at
all or something is overlayed on top of other items so you can't access
all controls it is definitely unusable to me.

But as you said earlier, my plugins are probably not representative for
all third party plugins. Most third party plugins have no web interface
at all or a web interface a lot simpler than my plugins.


-- 
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(http://erland.homeip.net/download)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
Custom Scan,  Custom Skip, Multi Library and Database Query plugins'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread pippin

Michael Herger;253745 Wrote: 
 
 Well, you've got the choice: get complaints about plugins not working
 in your skin. Or get complaints about plugins not available in your
 skin. Your answer in both cases will be the same: contact the plugin
 author - which is correct. But there will be more plugins missing than
 there would be breaking your skin.
 
I did. As I said ;-)
 
 You do. Users don't. It's your choice, and it probably is the right
 choice from a developpers point of view. But users are left behind.
 
I see it just the other way 'round. There are tons of MP3 players on
the market that have WAY more functionality than the iPod. And there
have been before the iPod. Which ones get bought?

Believe me: functionality is developers' first priority, usability is
users' first priority!

Erland, thanks for your overview! For the next release I will see that
I make some more standard blocks for that additional functionality
(like vertical alphameps, goToTop buttons etc.).

Regarding 'contentanchor': It's a different animal, the anchor
parameter is still supported. However, the anchor parameter adds an
anchor to a given row while the contentanchor wrapper adds a seperate
heading row. It's used for the alphabet headings in the Artist and Album
views.
The main drawback for the anchor parameter is that it does need it's
own table cell because otherwise it would screw up the layout of the
main cell (that is supposed to have an anchor fill out the whole cell
area).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

pippin;253760 Wrote: 
 
 Regarding 'contentanchor': It's a different animal, the anchor
 parameter is still supported. However, the anchor parameter adds an
 anchor to a given row while the contentanchor wrapper adds a seperate
 heading row. It's used for the alphabet headings in the Artist and Album
 views.
 The main drawback for the anchor parameter is that it does need it's
 own table cell because otherwise it would screw up the layout of the
 main cell (that is supposed to have an anchor fill out the whole cell
 area).
I just felt that the 'anchor' parameter maybe should be implemented as
a contentanchor in the iPeng skin. I'm not sure how 'anchor' is used in
the rest of the skins, but it feels like it should be the same thing.

To me it would seem logical if the iPeng skin chooses to implement the
'anchor' parameter as a separate visible heading row, while the other
skins choose to implement it as a hidden anchor not visible on the
screen. The visibility of the anchor makes more sense on the iPhone
screen than on a computer screen.
But there might be implementation complexities that I haven't realized
that makes this hard to accomplish.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread pippin

erland;253766 Wrote: 
 I just felt that the 'anchor' parameter maybe should be implemented as a
 contentanchor in the iPeng skin. I'm not sure how 'anchor' is used in
 the rest of the skins, but it feels like it should be the same thing.
 
 To me it would seem logical if the iPeng skin chooses to implement the
 'anchor' parameter as a separate visible heading row, while the other
 skins choose to implement it as a hidden anchor not visible on the
 screen. The visibility of the anchor makes more sense on the iPhone
 screen than on a computer screen.
 But there might be implementation complexities that I haven't realized
 that makes this hard to accomplish.
OK, I was probably making assumptions.
On iPeng 0.1a i put an anchor in EVERY row and I'm not sure, whether
others are probably doing the same. If they did, this would look
nasty...
I'll give it a try with some plugins and if it works out well I'll
handle the anchor parameter like the contentanchor item.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] iPeng Plugin Cookbook

2008-01-03 Thread erland

pippin;253768 Wrote: 
 OK, I was probably making assumptions.
 On iPeng 0.1a i put an anchor in EVERY row and I'm not sure, whether
 others are probably doing the same. If they did, this would look
 nasty...
 I'll give it a try with some plugins and if it works out well I'll
 handle the anchor parameter like the contentanchor item.

I don't think there are a lot of plugins using the anchor parameter, I
know I didn't until yesterday when I realize it existed.

The SC browse pages uses it, but it will only set the anchor on the
first item for each letter if I'm interpreting the SC perl code
correctly.
Possibly it might be a good idea to only show it if the list is more
than 40 items long or something, this is what I currently do in Custom
Browse.

pippin;253768 Wrote: 
 
 If you want to try it, too, just change the [% IF anchor %]... clause
 in contentitem to
 [%- IF anchor;
 WRAPPER contentanchor;
 anchor;
 END;
 END %]
 
Seems to work good, but you have to move it above the tr because else
it create an extra empty line before the anchor row.


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Custom Scan,  Custom Skip, Multi Library and Database Query plugins'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC works from squeezebox remote but not from webclient

2008-01-03 Thread amorphia

Thanks for the tip, in the other thread I saw that someone had said
certain sub-menus worked and others didn't, and I discovered that for
me, neither the Radio 4 listen again items nor the Radio 4 A to Z
items work, but the plain Radio 4 items do, and most of the material
does seem to be there too.

Cheers,

Ben


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[SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC likely to work on a low spec system?

2008-01-03 Thread amorphia

Hi all,

I am maybe going to get an Excito Bubba miniserver to run Slimserver:

http://www.excito.com/products.html

It is very low spec (200 MHz ARM9 CPU, see link) but this is so it can
have low power consumption and no fan. It is confirmed as running
slimserver acceptably, but I am worried about AlienBBC. I'm not aware
of anyone who has tested it on a Bubba. I guess it is mplayer which may
cause problems but the mplayer home page is down so I can't find any
info about its minimum specs. The Bubba runs vanilla Debian Sarge so
I'm fairly certain mplayer will compile, but not at all certain the
system will have enough power. Would anyone care to make an educated
guess?

Thanks,

Ben


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC likely to work on a low spec system?

2008-01-03 Thread garethhoward

Hi

I had a Qnap TS101 which has a 266hz chip and 64mb ram and that ran
Alien BBC with no problems at all so I can not see why yours won't as
long as you can install all the required plugins.

Cheers Gareth


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC likely to work on a low spec system?

2008-01-03 Thread bpa

standard mplayer will not work fast enough with an ARM as it has no
floating-point unit.  You need to use the patch to use fixed point
arithmetic.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34178


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[SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC website down

2008-01-03 Thread Neil Sleightholm

The AlienBBC website will be down for a few days while I change service
providers. I will post an update here when it is back. Sorry for any
inconvenience.

Neil


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Neil Sleightholm

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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] Announce: New XM Radio Plug-in

2008-01-03 Thread rlt234

ive loaded xmplugin 1.1.1 files as directed into plug in folder and it
displays in my slimserver software but not on the slim device it self.

ive looked everywhere for it, internet radio, my music, etc. nothing,
nada.

who do i get it to show up on my slim device?


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[SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC connection timeouts on QNAP 209

2008-01-03 Thread cushty

Hello all,

I recently got a SB3 and QNAP 209 NAS. I loaded slimserver package from
progressive (6.5.3 with 6.5.4 upgrade) and all seemed well for a week or
two. There have been some events including a power outage (in which I
needed to fsck to get the disks back online and a reconfig of the
network and now I getting connection timeouts for AlienBBC stations
from the SB3 and SS gui. When I use the slimserver gui I can click
through to the station link and once I press the play link it sits
there for a while and basically refreshed the page (after what seems
like a connection timeout) with no indication of the station
loaded/playing in the squeezebox right gui pane.

Other internet services work ok including shoutcast. When I check the
outgoing sessions on my firewall I see port 80 traffic to the BBC sites
but no other. I've uninstalled the progressive package and reinstalled
it but still the same. I would like to think it is a network issue but
as other internet radio works ok and a SS running on my laptop works to
BBC sites it doesn't seem likely. If it is a system error prehaps
related to the power outage causing disk corruption then an
uninstall-install of slimserver didn't fix it. I also can't seem to
find or turn on any decent logging on the QNAP to help in the fault
finding.

Any help or advice greatly appreciated,

cheers
caz


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC website down

2008-01-03 Thread Neil Sleightholm

The migration seemed to go smoothly and the site should be back up.


-- 
Neil Sleightholm

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[SlimDevices: Plugins] connecting a specific menu to a remote button through custom.map

2008-01-03 Thread atleor

CustomBrowse v1.26 have support for connecting a specific menu or
specific mixer to a remote button through custom.map.

I have tried this by adding this line in the custom.map file:

browse.hold = modefunction_PLUGIN.CustomBrowse-browse_artists

When I press browse.hold I get to the CustomBrowse menu, but not to
the artists menu inside custombrowse.

I have also tried:
browse.single=
modefunction_PLUGIN.CustomBrowse-browse_dynamicplaylists

I get exacly the same result.

I hope someone can help me with this.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] AlienBBC website down

2008-01-03 Thread ModelCitizen

Shortest few days I've ever experienced

MC


-- 
ModelCitizen

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist
in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

Transporter  Bryston 4B ST  PMC OB1s
SB3  NAIM NAC 102 + HICAP  NAIM NAP 180  Shahinian Arcs
http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen

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[SlimDevices: Plugins] itunes update problem

2008-01-03 Thread simong

apologies if this has been answered - did search but...

When I listen to a track with a foreign character, my itunes library
does not update. Any way of sorting this one?

Many thanks


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Re: [SlimDevices: Plugins] connecting a specific menu to a remote button through custom.map

2008-01-03 Thread erland

I don't remember exactly how the syntax was, so if you could try this I
would appreciate it:
browse.hold =
modefunction_PLUGIN.CustomBrowse-browse_hierarchy=artists

If it doesn't work, let me know and I will investigate it further.


-- 
erland

Erland Isaksson
'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page'
(http://erland.homeip.net/download)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
Custom Scan,  Custom Skip, Multi Library and Database Query plugins'
(http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer))

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