Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Dominique Faure]

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 20:42, Oliver Betz  wrote:
> Dominique Faure wrote:
>
> [...tags vs. links...]
>
>>IMHO (and on a rather technical point of view), we already have almost
>>all the bells and wistles we could need to handle such kind of data
>>(page text variable, page attributes,...). The problerm here is more a
>>need to know how to use the available features in a no non-sense
>>way...
>>...and document it!
>
> as far as I know, the issue is speed: Backlinks are searched much
> faster than page text variables.

Speed isn't the most important point there: backlinks are searched
faster than page text variables because they're specifically handled
through the .pageindex file. If a consesus is found on a way to
express category ownership without using category links, I'm sure the
feature would be managed using the same speed considerations.

-- 
Dominique

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Oliver Betz]

Dominique Faure wrote:

[...tags vs. links...]

>IMHO (and on a rather technical point of view), we already have almost
>all the bells and wistles we could need to handle such kind of data
>(page text variable, page attributes,...). The problerm here is more a
>need to know how to use the available features in a no non-sense
>way...
>...and document it!

as far as I know, the issue is speed: Backlinks are searched much
faster than page text variables.

Oliver


___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Dominique Faure]

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 17:47, DaveG  wrote:
>
>
> On 3/7/2010 8:23 AM, Hans wrote:
>> Sunday, March 7, 2010, 8:44:24 AM, Simon wrote:
>>
>>> The markup [[!SomeCategory]] is a tag, it categorises a page. It is a 
>>> definition or declaration.
>>> The  markup [[Category/SomeCategory] is a reference to page (that
>>> lists pages on which a particular tag occurs)
>>
>> To me [[!SomeCategory]] is foremost a link,
>> a special type of link, but still a link.
>> If tags were implemented in Pmwiki there would be some kind of tag
>> markup, which will not necessarily display as a link.
>> Tags would be more like the title directive, and stored as separate
>> page attributes.
> I believe the way many people use [[!...]] is as a basic tagging
> mechanism already.

+1 to this.

Couldn't we consider that [[!...]] could be *both* a tag and a link?
Therefore we only need a way to express what could be a "silent" tag,
ie. not rendering as a link. someting like {{!...}} could be
aproppriate.

>> If PmWiki wants a tag system, then that should be discussed,
>> but such discussion is beyond what is proposed on that PITS page
>> about distinguishing [[!Page]] and [[Category.Page]] in backlinks.
>>
>> For me a tagging system would not only use markup which could be
>> invisible, but also could use multiple tag groups, and has a
>> mechanism in the standard edit form to add and change tags.
>> The latter might brake PmWiki's simplicity rule.
> Adding additional functionality to the category system to extend it's
> use as a tagging system has merit, but as you say beyond where this
> discussion is.

IMHO (and on a rather technical point of view), we already have almost
all the bells and wistles we could need to handle such kind of data
(page text variable, page attributes,...). The problerm here is more a
need to know how to use the available features in a no non-sense
way...
...and document it!

-- 
Dominique

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[DaveG]

On 3/7/2010 8:23 AM, Hans wrote:
> Sunday, March 7, 2010, 8:44:24 AM, Simon wrote:
>
>> The markup [[!SomeCategory]] is a tag, it categorises a page. It is a 
>> definition or declaration.
>> The  markup [[Category/SomeCategory] is a reference to page (that
>> lists pages on which a particular tag occurs)
>
> To me [[!SomeCategory]] is foremost a link,
> a special type of link, but still a link.
> If tags were implemented in Pmwiki there would be some kind of tag
> markup, which will not necessarily display as a link.
> Tags would be more like the title directive, and stored as separate
> page attributes.
I believe the way many people use [[!...]] is as a basic tagging 
mechanism already.
>
> If PmWiki wants a tag system, then that should be discussed,
> but such discussion is beyond what is proposed on that PITS page
> about distinguishing [[!Page]] and [[Category.Page]] in backlinks.
>
> For me a tagging system would not only use markup which could be
> invisible, but also could use multiple tag groups, and has a
> mechanism in the standard edit form to add and change tags.
> The latter might brake PmWiki's simplicity rule.
Adding additional functionality to the category system to extend it's 
use as a tagging system has merit, but as you say beyond where this 
discussion is.

  ~ ~ Dave

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Hans]

Sunday, March 7, 2010, 8:44:24 AM, Simon wrote:

> The markup [[!SomeCategory]] is a tag, it categorises a page. It is a 
> definition or declaration.
> The  markup [[Category/SomeCategory] is a reference to page (that
> lists pages on which a particular tag occurs)

> When listing pages that are tagged (using the [[!]] markup) it is
> wrong to include in the list of tagged pages the additional pages
> that reference the category or list.

To me [[!SomeCategory]] is foremost a link,
a special type of link, but still a link.
If tags were implemented in Pmwiki there would be some kind of tag
markup, which will not necessarily display as a link.
Tags would be more like the title directive, and stored as separate
page attributes.

If PmWiki wants a tag system, then that should be discussed,
but such discussion is beyond what is proposed on that PITS page
about distinguishing [[!Page]] and [[Category.Page]] in backlinks.

For me a tagging system would not only use markup which could be
invisible, but also could use multiple tag groups, and has a
mechanism in the standard edit form to add and change tags.
The latter might brake PmWiki's simplicity rule.


  ~Hans


___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Peter Bowers]

2010/3/7 Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr>:
> I will be thankful if we could continue this discussion where it started on
>  http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/00447

or, for the related issue:

http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/01095

-Peter

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Petko Yotov]

On Sunday 07 March 2010 09:24:44, Hans wrote :
> Petko writes in the original post:
> > Category links are stored in a special attribute in the page file, and
> > also in a special file .pageindex to speed up the searches, in the form
> > "Category.Name Category.Name2" etc.
> 
> I don't see that. I only see a targets= attribute, which will list
> all link targets in the page, including links to Category pages.

The special attribute targets= contains all category links. That's what I was 
saying. :-)

> Category links are not treated different than other links,

I didn't say they are treated differently in page indexes, they are treated 
differently in page/structure/markup processing and rendering.

> and categories exists as pages (even though they may not exists, but
> only virtually). This is the core idea. I do not see the distinction
> between declaring a category and referencing to a category page.
> We are using link markup, so are referencing to another page.
> We are not declaring category attributes to a page.
> 
> Unless one wants to change this, I see no reason for this whole
> discussion.

We are indeed discussing a possibility to change this. :-) By adding both the 
current "Category.Name" and the new "!Name" strings to the targets= attribute 
and to the .pageindex file.

Thanks,
Petko

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Petko Yotov]

On Sunday 07 March 2010 09:24:44, Hans wrote :
> Anyway, those are my not very qualified musings

I will be thankful if we could continue this discussion where it started on 
  http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/00447

This way it will be easy to get an overview of opinions and new ideas from the 
community, refactor and update the page.

Feel free to vote "X" if you are against the requested feature. :-)

Petko

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Simon]

On 7 March 2010 21:24, Hans  wrote:

> Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:06:45 PM, Petko Yotov wrote:
>
> Why would one want [[!Name]] and [[Category/Name]] to have different
> meaning? Both are links to the same page (which may or may not
> exists, but this is a different potentially confusing issue for a
> newcomer to grasp the use of categories in PmWiki).
>

The markup [[!SomeCategory]] is a
tag,
it categorises a page. It is a definition or declaration.
The  markup [[Category/SomeCategory] is a reference to page (that lists
pages on which a particular tag occurs)

When listing pages that are tagged (using the [[!]] markup) it is wrong to
include in the list of tagged pages the additional pages that reference the
category or list.

HTH

Simon
___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Hans]

Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:06:45 PM, Petko Yotov wrote:

> While there are users from the community who want this feature, I'm not sure
> we have a consensus, ot even a majority. The implementation requires 
> substantial changes to the core and I feel that what we have now is not really
> a good, globally logical solution. Also, a couple of bugs need to be fixed and
> released asap.

> For these reasons, I'll suspend the feature request (PITS:00447) until we find
> a better way to deal with it.

Thanks. I find this whole discussion confusing, both in content as in
the way it is conducted. I see only now that the discussion has
spilled into a PITS entry http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/00447

Contentwise it confused me because I did not grasp what the problem
was, nor the proposed way to soplve it.

Why would one want [[!Name]] and [[Category/Name]] to have different
meaning? Both are links to the same page (which may or may not
exists, but this is a different potentially confusing issue for a
newcomer to grasp the use of categories in PmWiki).

Petko writes in the original post:

> Category links are stored in a special attribute in the page file, and also in
> a special file .pageindex to speed up the searches, in the form "Category.Name
> Category.Name2" etc.

I don't see that. I only see a targets= attribute, which will list
all link targets in the page, including links to Category pages.
Category links are not treated different than other links,
and categories exists as pages (even though they may not exists, but
only virtually). This is the core idea. I do not see the distinction
between declaring a category and referencing to a category page.
We are using link markup, so are referencing to another page.
We are not declaring category attributes to a page.

Unless one wants to change this, I see no reason for this whole
discussion.

We could have a different markup to declare categories, then save
these categoriesd in a categories= page atribute, and not under
targets= links. Then expand pagelist accordingly with a categories=
parameter.

As to expanding category functionality:
I found the tagger recipe most useful for this.
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Tagger

To expand pagelist so it can list pages belonging to both category A
and category B (logical filtering) etc. is more important IMHO than
to treat backlinks differently according to some prefixes.

As to exclamation mark usage in pagelist:
even though it may not be used widely, it still has solid meaning as
a negater, and I would not dismis it lighly in favour of its use as
Category group alias. Obviously the design fault was in the use of an
exclamation mark in [[!Name]] link markup shortcuts.
But if we leave the equivalence of links [[!Name]] and
[[Category/Name]] intact, and add a new markup to declare a dedicated
category page attribute, the exclamation mark won't be a problem.

Anyway, those are my not very qualified musings

  ~Hans


___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Simon]

I feed that the existing use of bang in pagelist selections is either low or
non existent,
in part because the documentation doesn't mention it strongly, and all
examples user the hyphen.
Community can correct me on this ...

The new markup could be introduced initially as an option that has to be
switched on, thus not breaking anything.
Switching the new feature on would mean

   - bang no longer worked as negation in pagelist parameters
   - the new link=!MyCategory pagelist parameter functionality would be
   enabled.

As part of a future major release, or after significant time, it could
become the default behaviour
and in fact could be the default behaviour in new wikis.
The indexing of [[!MyCategory]] can be introduced in any case.

My thoughts

Simon


On 6 March 2010 10:06, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote:

> On Thursday 04 March 2010 10:03:12, Peter Bowers wrote :
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote:
> > > I now see a problem of which I haven't thought before -- with other
> > > parameters like name=!Name or group=!Name the "!" means "NOT Name" so
> > > link=!Name may be confusing and a bad idea. :-(
> > > Especially if at some point we change the link= parameter to accept
> > > multiple page names like link=Page1,Page2,-Group3.* . Hmm...
> ...
> >
> > What if we went with something like this:
> >link=^!^mycat
> > -or-
> >link=(!)mycat
> > -or-
> >link=\!mycat   // kind of like escaping the !...?  [1]
>
> This is exactly the thing I'd like to avoid -- if there is an inconsistent
> and
> un-intuitive implementation for a new feature request, we add more complex
> and
> un-intuitive markup to fix its problems. :-)
>
> I feel that I was wrong about this -- I don't want to add a feature without
> enough thinking, and regret it later when it could prevent us to do a more
> important change. When I see that I'm wrong I change.:-) Good thing that it
> wasn't released.
>
> While there are users from the community who want this feature, I'm not
> sure
> we have a consensus, ot even a majority. The implementation requires
> substantial changes to the core and I feel that what we have now is not
> really
> a good, globally logical solution. Also, a couple of bugs need to be fixed
> and
> released asap.
>
> For these reasons, I'll suspend the feature request (PITS:00447) until we
> find
> a better way to deal with it.
>
> Thanks,
> Petko
>
> ___
> pmwiki-users mailing list
> pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
> http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users
>



-- 

http://kiwiwiki.co.nz
___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users

Re: [pmwiki-users] RFC: Indexing categories and links (suspended)

[Petko Yotov]

On Thursday 04 March 2010 10:03:12, Peter Bowers wrote :
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Petko Yotov <5...@5ko.fr> wrote:
> > I now see a problem of which I haven't thought before -- with other
> > parameters like name=!Name or group=!Name the "!" means "NOT Name" so
> > link=!Name may be confusing and a bad idea. :-(
> > Especially if at some point we change the link= parameter to accept
> > multiple page names like link=Page1,Page2,-Group3.* . Hmm...
...
> 
> What if we went with something like this:
>link=^!^mycat
> -or-
>link=(!)mycat
> -or-
>link=\!mycat   // kind of like escaping the !...?  [1]

This is exactly the thing I'd like to avoid -- if there is an inconsistent and 
un-intuitive implementation for a new feature request, we add more complex and 
un-intuitive markup to fix its problems. :-)

I feel that I was wrong about this -- I don't want to add a feature without 
enough thinking, and regret it later when it could prevent us to do a more 
important change. When I see that I'm wrong I change.:-) Good thing that it 
wasn't released.

While there are users from the community who want this feature, I'm not sure 
we have a consensus, ot even a majority. The implementation requires 
substantial changes to the core and I feel that what we have now is not really 
a good, globally logical solution. Also, a couple of bugs need to be fixed and 
released asap.

For these reasons, I'll suspend the feature request (PITS:00447) until we find 
a better way to deal with it.

Thanks,
Petko

___
pmwiki-users mailing list
pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
http://www.pmichaud.com/mailman/listinfo/pmwiki-users