[proletar] Re: kesimpulannya ... luxenberg dan mingana tukang ngibul
jadi memang sulit dibantah kalau luxenberg dan mingana adalah tukang kibul .. heuheuheu .. some quotes: Robert Hoyland : the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some have claimed. John Burton: What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al quran.. bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa ngepost email di kampung petar ... --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > luxenberg merupakan pengekor dari mingana ... > jadi begini, mingana bilang > If all the signs do not mislead us, very few oracular sentences, if > any, were written in the time of the Prophet. The kind of life he led, > and the rudimentary character of reading and writing in that part of > the world in which he appeared, are sufficient witnesses in favour of > this view. Our ignorance of the Arabic language in its early period of > its evolution is such that we can not even know with certainty whether > it had any writing of its own in Maccah and Madinah. If a kind of > writing existed in these two localities it must have been something > very similar to Estrangelo [i.e., Syriac] or the Hebrew character. > > sebagai seorang yg mengaku ilmuwan dia tidak jujur krn mengabaikan > nilai2 kultur sosial-budaya arab.. > > The opinions of Arab authors, on this point, are too worthless to be > quoted... If we may advance an opinion of our own, we think that a > complete and systematic treatise on these vowels was not elaborated > till the latter half of the VIIIth century, and we believe that such > an attempt could have been successfully made only the under the > influence of the school of Baghdâd, at its very beginning. > > dia bilang juga : > The foundation of the Arabic vowels is based on the vowels of > Aramaeans. The names given to these vowels is an irrefragable proof of > the veracity of this assertion. > > When the Koran was composed, Arabic did not exist as a written > language; thus it seemed evident to me that it was necessary to take > into consideration, above all, Aramaic, which at the time, between the > 4th and 7th centuries, was not only the language of written > communication, but also the lingua franca of that area of Western Asia. > > ... padahal > sudah ditemukan skrip arabik yang menunjukkan bahwa alfabet sudah > terbangun dgn baik sebelum sejarah nabi muhammad dimulai .. > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jimal.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/usays.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html > sebagian prasasti2 ditemukan di bukit sal' dekat madinah tsb, bukti2 > tsb diidentifikasi berasal dari tahun 4 AH > > prasasti2 ini membuktikan bajwa artikulatik alfabet arab sudah > terbangun dgn baik cukup utk bs menolak premis spekulatif mingana dan > luxenberg. lebih jauh bellamy memberi komentar thd prasasti dr jabal > ramm, umm al-jimal dan harran : > Anyone who takes a close look at these inscriptions and compares them > with the sample of Koran... will discern a great many letterforms that > have not been changed at all, or very little, in the sixteen hundred > years that have elapsed since the earliest one was written. > nabia abbott pun terang2an menolak opini sembrono dr mingana dgn > menggunakan temuan papyrus arabik yg ditemukan di mesir .. > If written Arabic was so primitive and rare in its own homeland at the > time of Muhammad's death, how do we account for its practical use in > Egypt only a short dozen years after that event? > > selain abbot jg ada kees versteegh and beatrice gruendler. > gruendler bilang .. > The diacritic system had completed its development in the first half > of the first Islamic century, ... > > dan healey bilang ... > ... we may suspect that the concept of diacritics came to the Arabs > with the Nabataean script, ... > > yang lucu luxenberg menggunakan pendapat Grohmann di dalam arabische > paläographie sbg sumber untuk mendukung argumen skrip syro-aramäische > > padahal dalam bukunya grohmann sebaliknya menolak argumen bhw asal > mula skrip arab berasal dari skrip syria.. > > di sisi lain .. > luxenberg menggunakan teknik trial-error thd sab`at ahruf dan > menghubungkannya dgn 7 tanda vokal dari syriac.. tabari [d. 310 ah / > 923 ce] mengungkapkan bhw "a tradition which says that there were five > readings (i.e., khamsah ahruf) of the qur'an", yg mana luxenberg > secara sembrono mengaitkannya dgn 5 vokal dari siria barat.. > > untuk vokal arabik diketahui b
[proletar] Re: kesimpulannya ... luxenberg dan mingana tukang ngibul
Ngaco. Yang bertanggung jawab atas pendapat Mingana adalah Mingana. --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > jadi memang sulit dibantah kalau luxenberg dan mingana adalah tukang > kibul .. > > heuheuheu .. > > some quotes: > > Robert Hoyland : > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > have claimed. > > John Burton: > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al quran.. > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > luxenberg merupakan pengekor dari mingana ... > > jadi begini, mingana bilang > > If all the signs do not mislead us, very few oracular sentences, if > > any, were written in the time of the Prophet. The kind of life he led, > > and the rudimentary character of reading and writing in that part of > > the world in which he appeared, are sufficient witnesses in favour of > > this view. Our ignorance of the Arabic language in its early period of > > its evolution is such that we can not even know with certainty whether > > it had any writing of its own in Maccah and Madinah. If a kind of > > writing existed in these two localities it must have been something > > very similar to Estrangelo [i.e., Syriac] or the Hebrew character. > > > > sebagai seorang yg mengaku ilmuwan dia tidak jujur krn mengabaikan > > nilai2 kultur sosial-budaya arab.. > > > > The opinions of Arab authors, on this point, are too worthless to be > > quoted... If we may advance an opinion of our own, we think that a > > complete and systematic treatise on these vowels was not elaborated > > till the latter half of the VIIIth century, and we believe that such > > an attempt could have been successfully made only the under the > > influence of the school of Baghdâd, at its very beginning. > > > > dia bilang juga : > > The foundation of the Arabic vowels is based on the vowels of > > Aramaeans. The names given to these vowels is an irrefragable proof of > > the veracity of this assertion. > > > > When the Koran was composed, Arabic did not exist as a written > > language; thus it seemed evident to me that it was necessary to take > > into consideration, above all, Aramaic, which at the time, between the > > 4th and 7th centuries, was not only the language of written > > communication, but also the lingua franca of that area of Western Asia. > > > > ... padahal > > sudah ditemukan skrip arabik yang menunjukkan bahwa alfabet sudah > > terbangun dgn baik sebelum sejarah nabi muhammad dimulai .. > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jimal.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/usays.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html > > sebagian prasasti2 ditemukan di bukit sal' dekat madinah tsb, bukti2 > > tsb diidentifikasi berasal dari tahun 4 AH > > > > prasasti2 ini membuktikan bajwa artikulatik alfabet arab sudah > > terbangun dgn baik cukup utk bs menolak premis spekulatif mingana dan > > luxenberg. lebih jauh bellamy memberi komentar thd prasasti dr jabal > > ramm, umm al-jimal dan harran : > > Anyone who takes a close look at these inscriptions and compares them > > with the sample of Koran... will discern a great many letterforms that > > have not been changed at all, or very little, in the sixteen hundred > > years that have elapsed since the earliest one was written. > > nabia abbott pun terang2an menolak opini sembrono dr mingana dgn > > menggunakan temuan papyrus arabik yg ditemukan di mesir .. > > If written Arabic was so primitive and rare in its own homeland at the > > time of Muhammad's death, how do we account for its practical use in > > Egypt only a short dozen years after that event? > > > > selain abbot jg ada kees versteegh and beatrice gruendler. > > gruendler bilang .. > > The diacritic system had completed its development in the first half > > of the first Islamic century, ... > > > > dan healey bilang ... > > ... we may suspect that the concept of diacritics came to the Arabs > > with the Nabataean script, ... > > > > yang lucu luxenberg menggunakan pendapat Grohmann di dalam arabische > > paläographie sbg sumber untuk mendukung argumen skrip syro-aramäische > > > > padahal dalam bukunya grohmann sebaliknya menolak argumen bhw asal > > mula skrip arab berasal dari skrip syria.. > > > > di sisi lain .. > > luxenberg menggunakan teknik trial-error thd sab
[proletar] Re: kesimpulannya ... luxenberg dan mingana tukang ngibul
tapi jusfiq dgn bangganya bawain dagangan mingana seolah sudah confirmed .. hehehe Robert Hoyland : the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some have claimed. John Burton: What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al quran.. al quran itu solid, dan tidak diragukan lagi bahwa itu kalam Ilahi.. bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa ngepost email di kampung petar ... --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadjar_wish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ngaco. > > Yang bertanggung jawab atas pendapat Mingana adalah Mingana. > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > jadi memang sulit dibantah kalau luxenberg dan mingana adalah tukang > > kibul .. > > > > heuheuheu .. > > > > some quotes: > > > > Robert Hoyland : > > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > > have claimed. > > > > John Burton: > > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al > quran.. > > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > > > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > > > luxenberg merupakan pengekor dari mingana ... > > > jadi begini, mingana bilang > > > If all the signs do not mislead us, very few oracular sentences, if > > > any, were written in the time of the Prophet. The kind of life he led, > > > and the rudimentary character of reading and writing in that part of > > > the world in which he appeared, are sufficient witnesses in favour of > > > this view. Our ignorance of the Arabic language in its early period of > > > its evolution is such that we can not even know with certainty whether > > > it had any writing of its own in Maccah and Madinah. If a kind of > > > writing existed in these two localities it must have been something > > > very similar to Estrangelo [i.e., Syriac] or the Hebrew character. > > > > > > sebagai seorang yg mengaku ilmuwan dia tidak jujur krn mengabaikan > > > nilai2 kultur sosial-budaya arab.. > > > > > > The opinions of Arab authors, on this point, are too worthless to be > > > quoted... If we may advance an opinion of our own, we think that a > > > complete and systematic treatise on these vowels was not elaborated > > > till the latter half of the VIIIth century, and we believe that such > > > an attempt could have been successfully made only the under the > > > influence of the school of Baghdâd, at its very beginning. > > > > > > dia bilang juga : > > > The foundation of the Arabic vowels is based on the vowels of > > > Aramaeans. The names given to these vowels is an irrefragable proof of > > > the veracity of this assertion. > > > > > > When the Koran was composed, Arabic did not exist as a written > > > language; thus it seemed evident to me that it was necessary to take > > > into consideration, above all, Aramaic, which at the time, between the > > > 4th and 7th centuries, was not only the language of written > > > communication, but also the lingua franca of that area of Western > Asia. > > > > > > ... padahal > > > sudah ditemukan skrip arabik yang menunjukkan bahwa alfabet sudah > > > terbangun dgn baik sebelum sejarah nabi muhammad dimulai .. > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jimal.html > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/usays.html > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html > > > sebagian prasasti2 ditemukan di bukit sal' dekat madinah tsb, bukti2 > > > tsb diidentifikasi berasal dari tahun 4 AH > > > > > > prasasti2 ini membuktikan bajwa artikulatik alfabet arab sudah > > > terbangun dgn baik cukup utk bs menolak premis spekulatif mingana dan > > > luxenberg. lebih jauh bellamy memberi komentar thd prasasti dr jabal > > > ramm, umm al-jimal dan harran : > > > Anyone who takes a close look at these inscriptions and compares them > > > with the sample of Koran... will discern a great many letterforms that > > > have not been changed at all, or very little, in the sixteen hundred > > > years that have elapsed since the earliest one was written. > > > nabia abbott pun terang2an menolak opini sembrono dr mingana dgn > > > menggunakan temuan papyrus arabik yg ditemukan di mesir .. > > > If written Arabic was so primitive and rare in its own homeland at the > > > time of Muhammad's death, how do we account for its practical u
[proletar] Re: kesimpulannya ... luxenberg dan mingana tukang ngibul
Orang Islam tipikal seperti "hadingrh" ini tiap kali dia kedadapan kehabisan argbumen lalu pakai dusta. Dia bilang saya "dgn bangganya bawain dagangan mingana seolah sudah confirmed " Ini jelas dusta. --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > tapi jusfiq dgn bangganya bawain dagangan mingana seolah sudah > confirmed .. hehehe > > Robert Hoyland : > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > have claimed. > > John Burton: > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al > quran.. al quran itu solid, dan tidak diragukan lagi bahwa itu kalam > Ilahi.. > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadjar_wish" wrote: > > > > Ngaco. > > > > Yang bertanggung jawab atas pendapat Mingana adalah Mingana. > > > > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > > > jadi memang sulit dibantah kalau luxenberg dan mingana adalah tukang > > > kibul .. > > > > > > heuheuheu .. > > > > > > some quotes: > > > > > > Robert Hoyland : > > > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > > > have claimed. > > > > > > John Burton: > > > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > > > > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al > > quran.. > > > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > > > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > > > > > > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > > > > > luxenberg merupakan pengekor dari mingana ... > > > > jadi begini, mingana bilang > > > > If all the signs do not mislead us, very few oracular sentences, if > > > > any, were written in the time of the Prophet. The kind of life > he led, > > > > and the rudimentary character of reading and writing in that part of > > > > the world in which he appeared, are sufficient witnesses in > favour of > > > > this view. Our ignorance of the Arabic language in its early > period of > > > > its evolution is such that we can not even know with certainty > whether > > > > it had any writing of its own in Maccah and Madinah. If a kind of > > > > writing existed in these two localities it must have been something > > > > very similar to Estrangelo [i.e., Syriac] or the Hebrew character. > > > > > > > > sebagai seorang yg mengaku ilmuwan dia tidak jujur krn mengabaikan > > > > nilai2 kultur sosial-budaya arab.. > > > > > > > > The opinions of Arab authors, on this point, are too worthless to be > > > > quoted... If we may advance an opinion of our own, we think that a > > > > complete and systematic treatise on these vowels was not elaborated > > > > till the latter half of the VIIIth century, and we believe that such > > > > an attempt could have been successfully made only the under the > > > > influence of the school of Baghdâd, at its very beginning. > > > > > > > > dia bilang juga : > > > > The foundation of the Arabic vowels is based on the vowels of > > > > Aramaeans. The names given to these vowels is an irrefragable > proof of > > > > the veracity of this assertion. > > > > > > > > When the Koran was composed, Arabic did not exist as a written > > > > language; thus it seemed evident to me that it was necessary to take > > > > into consideration, above all, Aramaic, which at the time, > between the > > > > 4th and 7th centuries, was not only the language of written > > > > communication, but also the lingua franca of that area of Western > > Asia. > > > > > > > > ... padahal > > > > sudah ditemukan skrip arabik yang menunjukkan bahwa alfabet sudah > > > > terbangun dgn baik sebelum sejarah nabi muhammad dimulai .. > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jimal.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/usays.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html > > > > sebagian prasasti2 ditemukan di bukit sal' dekat madinah tsb, bukti2 > > > > tsb diidentifikasi berasal dari tahun 4 AH > > > > > > > > prasasti2 ini membuktikan bajwa artikulatik alfabet arab sudah > > > > terbangun dgn baik cukup utk bs menolak premis spekulatif > mingana dan > > > > luxenberg. lebih jauh bellamy memberi komentar thd prasasti dr > jabal > > > > ramm, umm al-jimal dan harran : > > > > Anyone who takes a close look at these inscriptions and compares > them > >
Re: [proletar] Re: kesimpulannya ... luxenberg dan mingana tukang ngibul
lonte satu ini kalo berak di sembarang tempat 2007/5/4, hadingrh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > tapi jusfiq dgn bangganya bawain dagangan mingana seolah sudah > confirmed .. hehehe > > Robert Hoyland : > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > have claimed. > > John Burton: > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al > quran.. al quran itu solid, dan tidak diragukan lagi bahwa itu kalam > Ilahi.. > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > >--- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadjar_wish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Ngaco. > > > > Yang bertanggung jawab atas pendapat Mingana adalah Mingana. > > > > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > > > jadi memang sulit dibantah kalau luxenberg dan mingana adalah tukang > > > kibul .. > > > > > > heuheuheu .. > > > > > > some quotes: > > > > > > Robert Hoyland : > > > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > > > have claimed. > > > > > > John Burton: > > > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > > > > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi keotentikan al > > quran.. > > > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang dungu sudah bisa > > > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > > > > > > > > --- In proletar@yahoogroups.com, "hadingrh" wrote: > > > > > > > > luxenberg merupakan pengekor dari mingana ... > > > > jadi begini, mingana bilang > > > > If all the signs do not mislead us, very few oracular sentences, if > > > > any, were written in the time of the Prophet. The kind of life > he led, > > > > and the rudimentary character of reading and writing in that part of > > > > the world in which he appeared, are sufficient witnesses in > favour of > > > > this view. Our ignorance of the Arabic language in its early > period of > > > > its evolution is such that we can not even know with certainty > whether > > > > it had any writing of its own in Maccah and Madinah. If a kind of > > > > writing existed in these two localities it must have been something > > > > very similar to Estrangelo [i.e., Syriac] or the Hebrew character. > > > > > > > > sebagai seorang yg mengaku ilmuwan dia tidak jujur krn mengabaikan > > > > nilai2 kultur sosial-budaya arab.. > > > > > > > > The opinions of Arab authors, on this point, are too worthless to be > > > > quoted... If we may advance an opinion of our own, we think that a > > > > complete and systematic treatise on these vowels was not elaborated > > > > till the latter half of the VIIIth century, and we believe that such > > > > an attempt could have been successfully made only the under the > > > > influence of the school of Baghdâd, at its very beginning. > > > > > > > > dia bilang juga : > > > > The foundation of the Arabic vowels is based on the vowels of > > > > Aramaeans. The names given to these vowels is an irrefragable > proof of > > > > the veracity of this assertion. > > > > > > > > When the Koran was composed, Arabic did not exist as a written > > > > language; thus it seemed evident to me that it was necessary to take > > > > into consideration, above all, Aramaic, which at the time, > between the > > > > 4th and 7th centuries, was not only the language of written > > > > communication, but also the lingua franca of that area of Western > > Asia. > > > > > > > > ... padahal > > > > sudah ditemukan skrip arabik yang menunjukkan bahwa alfabet sudah > > > > terbangun dgn baik sebelum sejarah nabi muhammad dimulai .. > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jimal.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/usays.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html > > > > > > http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html > > > > sebagian prasasti2 ditemukan di bukit sal' dekat madinah tsb, bukti2 > > > > tsb diidentifikasi berasal dari tahun 4 AH > > > > > > > > prasasti2 ini membuktikan bajwa artikulatik alfabet arab sudah > > > > terbangun dgn baik cukup utk bs menolak premis spekulatif > mingana dan > > > > luxenberg. lebih jauh bellamy memberi komentar thd prasasti dr > jabal > > > > ramm, umm al-jimal dan harran : > > > > Anyone who takes a close look at these inscriptions and compares > them > > > > with the sample of Koran... will discern a great many > letterforms that > > > > have not been changed at all, or very little, in the sixteen hundred > > > > years that have elapsed since the
