Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
Hi, A colleague of mine used to produce artwork on film using a laser printer. The right sort of film was essential to ensure dimensional stability with the heat of the laser printer. This yielded black tracks on a transparent film. He then used a positive etch process to remove the photoresist which had been exposed to light. It was a very simple procedure. I always understood that this was the standard method, no need for negatives etc. I notice that products are available that improve the density and definition of a standard paper or film print using a contact method (Reprophane film). [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 15-Jun-2003 07:56cc: PM Subject: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork Please respond to Protel EDA Forum My son wants to build a board to learn how it's done. We've got schematic and PCB files ready to roll. I've got some old Kepro-clad kits (pre-sensitized copperclad); now all we need is a way to get the artwork onto a negative. I've done it before using viewgraph transparencies, but don't now have a handy way to turn the printout into a negative. I recall doing it eons ago by using Postscript output to a file, then directly monkeying with the Postscript header to invert the colors. Does anybody have a more modern way to invert black and white? I can print to a PDF, but that doesn't seem helpful. Neither was anything I could find in tinkering with the colors within Protel. Surely somebody else out there has already done this? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Steve Hednrix * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
At 16/06/2003 10:15, Robert Gillat wrote: Hi, A colleague of mine used to produce artwork on film using a laser printer. The right sort of film was essential to ensure dimensional stability with the heat of the laser printer. This yielded black tracks on a transparent film. He then used a positive etch process to remove the photoresist which had been exposed to light. It was a very simple procedure. I always understood that this was the standard method, no need for negatives etc. I notice that products are available that improve the density and definition of a standard paper or film print using a contact method (Reprophane film). That is EXACTLY the process I have been using for the past eight years for all (100+ boards) my hobby projects Works like a charm! Positive sensitive PCBs are readily available and inexpensive (at least in the Netherlands :-). Exposure is possible with a large number of UV sources (skin tanning devices, mercury vapour lamps or even direct sunlight); for small boards it is even possible to use a strong (at least 350 Watts) incandescent lamp at short range. Be sure to test the optimum exposure time for your setup (light source, film type and contrast, distance, photo resist type and age!). Good contact between the film and board is essential, especially with long exposure times. After exposure I develop in a solution of caustic soda (2 teaspoons in 1 liter water) at room temperature, rinse thoroughly and test with a drop of diluted etchant (FeCl3) to see if all unwanted photoresist is gone. That way you can always develop some more after rinsing. Hell, I even re-exposed and then re-developed some boards that came out under developed Etching can be done with what you have available: Ammoniumpersulphate, FeCl3, even nitric acid (20% or so). Be careful and wear appropriate protection, these are ALL really MEAN chemicals. For the hasty people: things go better when heated above room temperature. Etching a 10 by 16 cm eurocard in FeCl3 at 60 C takes less than three minutes in a fresh, strong solution (I lost two boards this way because of a telephone call: the stayed in too long and had no copper left at all). DO NOT heat FeCl3 above 80 Celsius for it will produce a non-soluble deposit that interferes with the etching process. DO NOT heat Ammoniumpersulphate above 60 Celsius for it will decompose. DO NOT heat nitric acid at all, it is plenty reactive at roomtemperature The biggest problem I always have is the drilling: few drill stands are stable enough to use 18 mil tungsten drillbits without breaking them. Good luck! Leo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
Hi Leo, To Avoid Drill bit Problem, Enable Show Holes Before taking Print, hope it will help you For me it works fine. Regards Nagaraj -Original Message- From: Leo Potjewijd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:56 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork At 16/06/2003 10:15, Robert Gillat wrote: >Hi, >A colleague of mine used to produce artwork on film using a laser printer. >The right sort of film was essential to ensure dimensional stability with >the heat of the laser printer. This yielded black tracks on a transparent >film. He then used a positive etch process to remove the photoresist which >had been exposed to light. It was a very simple procedure. I always >understood that this was the standard method, no need for negatives etc. I >notice that products are available that improve the density and definition >of a standard paper or film print using a contact method (Reprophane film). That is EXACTLY the process I have been using for the past eight years for all (100+ boards) my hobby projects Works like a charm! Positive sensitive PCBs are readily available and inexpensive (at least in the Netherlands :-). Exposure is possible with a large number of UV sources (skin tanning devices, mercury vapour lamps or even direct sunlight); for small boards it is even possible to use a strong (at least 350 Watts) incandescent lamp at short range. Be sure to test the optimum exposure time for your setup (light source, film type and contrast, distance, photo resist type and age!). Good contact between the film and board is essential, especially with long exposure times. After exposure I develop in a solution of caustic soda (2 teaspoons in 1 liter water) at room temperature, rinse thoroughly and test with a drop of diluted etchant (FeCl3) to see if all unwanted photoresist is gone. That way you can always develop some more after rinsing. Hell, I even re-exposed and then re-developed some boards that came out under developed Etching can be done with what you have available: Ammoniumpersulphate, FeCl3, even nitric acid (20% or so). Be careful and wear appropriate protection, these are ALL really MEAN chemicals. For the hasty people: things go better when heated above room temperature. Etching a 10 by 16 cm eurocard in FeCl3 at 60 C takes less than three minutes in a fresh, strong solution (I lost two boards this way because of a telephone call: the stayed in too long and had no copper left at all). DO NOT heat FeCl3 above 80 Celsius for it will produce a non-soluble deposit that interferes with the etching process. DO NOT heat Ammoniumpersulphate above 60 Celsius for it will decompose. DO NOT heat nitric acid at all, it is plenty reactive at roomtemperature The biggest problem I always have is the drilling: few drill stands are stable enough to use 18 mil tungsten drillbits without breaking them. Good luck! Leo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
Not to throw cold water on your or your son's PCB ambitions, but might it be cheaper and less trouble to have the boards made by one of the low cost proto houses that exist now? You can get proto boards done for less than $100. By the time you set up an exposure lamp, buy the chemicals, film, pcb blanks, figure out how to dispose of the used etchant, and drill the holes, you could be over the $100 and "lots of work" mark. Of course, if the idea is to explore the actual process of pcb manufacturing, equipment, materials and supplies procurement, and how to comply with all the environmental regulations of toxic waste disposal, then using a pcb fab house would be missing the point... I think it's great that your son has the curiosity about it though. I learned much about working with hand and power tools and auto repair from watching and helping my father when I was a kid. Although I ended up choosing a different branch of engineering than my father (I am electrical, my father is mechanical and nuclear), I attribute my interest in analysis, problem solving, and handyman's skills to the role model that is my father. Even though it's the day after Father's Day, I am still saying "Thanks, Dad!". Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork > My son wants to build a board to learn how it's done. We've got schematic and > PCB files ready to roll. I've got some old Kepro-clad kits (pre-sensitized > copperclad); now all we need is a way to get the artwork onto a negative. I've > done it before using viewgraph transparencies, but don't now have a handy way > to turn the printout into a negative. I recall doing it eons ago by using > Postscript output to a file, then directly monkeying with the Postscript header to > invert the colors. Does anybody have a more modern way to invert black and > white? I can print to a PDF, but that doesn't seem helpful. Neither was anything > I could find in tinkering with the colors within Protel. Surely somebody else > out there has already done this? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. > > Steve Hednrix * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Specctra 10.2 Interfaces with 99SE
Thank You, Steve. Do you mean Protel Router can't complete on Dense Board? Specctra gave us a very good price to upgrade from V7.1 to 10.2... Shuping -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 3:54 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Specctra 10.2 Interfaces with 99SE 13/06/2003 22:51:09, Shuping Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Have anybody use Protel99SE interfaces with Specctra 10.2? Yes - works fine. (Still the same old via hole size issues). I was forced to give Cadence a pile of money, since Specctra's autorouter still can't compete on dense boards :( Steve Wiseman * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
In a message dated 6/16/2003 2:50:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Not to throw cold water on your or your son's PCB ambitions, but might it > be > cheaper and less trouble to have the boards made by one of the low cost > proto houses that exist now? You can get proto boards done for less than > $100. By the time you set up an exposure lamp, buy the chemicals, film, pcb > blanks, figure out how to dispose of the used etchant, and drill the holes, > you could be over the $100 and "lots of work" mark. I already have virtually everything on hand. > > Of course, if the idea is to explore the actual process of pcb > manufacturing, equipment, materials and supplies procurement, and how to > comply with all the environmental regulations of toxic waste disposal, then > using a pcb fab house would be missing the point... Precisely! > > I think it's great that your son has the curiosity about it though. I > learned much about working with hand and power tools and auto repair from > watching and helping my father when I was a kid. Although I ended up > choosing a different branch of engineering than my father (I am electrical, > my father is mechanical and nuclear), I attribute my interest in analysis, > problem solving, and handyman's skills to the role model that is my father. > Even though it's the day after Father's Day, I am still saying "Thanks, > Dad!". > Right on! Wish I'd said that - my story is much the same Steve Hendrix * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
I doubt the idea is to compete with a modern board-house. This is a learning experience, and in all likelihood, and though not to get too moshy and screw up my image as a hard-nosed, cold-hearted prick, an attempt to create a father/son bonding experience. > -Original Message- > From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 10:23 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork > > > Not to throw cold water on your or your son's PCB ambitions, > but might it be > cheaper and less trouble to have the boards made by one of > the low cost > proto houses that exist now? You can get proto boards done > for less than > $100. By the time you set up an exposure lamp, buy the > chemicals, film, pcb > blanks, figure out how to dispose of the used etchant, and > drill the holes, > you could be over the $100 and "lots of work" mark. > > Of course, if the idea is to explore the actual process of pcb > manufacturing, equipment, materials and supplies procurement, > and how to > comply with all the environmental regulations of toxic waste > disposal, then > using a pcb fab house would be missing the point... > > I think it's great that your son has the curiosity about it though. I > learned much about working with hand and power tools and auto > repair from > watching and helping my father when I was a kid. Although I ended up > choosing a different branch of engineering than my father (I > am electrical, > my father is mechanical and nuclear), I attribute my interest > in analysis, > problem solving, and handyman's skills to the role model that > is my father. > Even though it's the day after Father's Day, I am still > saying "Thanks, > Dad!". > > Best regards, > Ivan Baggett > Bagotronix Inc. > website: www.bagotronix.com > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:56 PM > Subject: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork > > > > My son wants to build a board to learn how it's done. We've > got schematic > and > > PCB files ready to roll. I've got some old Kepro-clad kits > (pre-sensitized > > copperclad); now all we need is a way to get the artwork > onto a negative. > I've > > done it before using viewgraph transparencies, but don't > now have a handy > way > > to turn the printout into a negative. I recall doing it > eons ago by using > > Postscript output to a file, then directly monkeying with > the Postscript > header to > > invert the colors. Does anybody have a more modern way to > invert black and > > white? I can print to a PDF, but that doesn't seem helpful. > Neither was > anything > > I could find in tinkering with the colors within Protel. > Surely somebody > else > > out there has already done this? Thanks in advance for any > help you can > offer. > > > > Steve Hednrix > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Specctra 10.2 Interfaces with 99SE
16/06/2003 17:28:22, Shuping Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Thank You, Steve. > >Do you mean Protel Router can't complete on Dense Board? Yes -my reply to Dennis (who also spotted my mistake...) seems to have vanished, but here's the outline- Specctra 10.2 works well, and routes boards to completion that just cause Protel's autorouter to sit still, doing nothing, or route 10% of the tracks very badly, then sit still, doing nothing. Very disappointing - and the DXP router seems to be just as useless on dense boards. (both work OK on easy boards, but if a board's easy enough that Protel's router can complete it, my customers want it smaller / cheaper rules / more functionality / fewer layers (or all of the above)) > Specctra gave us a very good price to upgrade from V7.1 to 10.2... I'm not sure that 10.2 is a great improvement over 7.1 (or it wasn't vastly better than 8.x, I just needed some ore layers, which forced the upgrade) If you want to send me a .dsn and a .do, I'll throw it at 10.2 and you can see if it's worth the money. After all, no point in giving Cadence money that could be spent on beer :) Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Specctra 10.2 Interfaces with 99SE
After all, no point in giving Cadence money > that could be spent on beer Steve, Not to be a critic but that should have read " No use giving anyone money that could be spent on COLD beer" Joe - Original Message - From: "Steve Wiseman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Specctra 10.2 Interfaces with 99SE > 16/06/2003 17:28:22, Shuping Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Thank You, Steve. > > > >Do you mean Protel Router can't complete on Dense Board? > > Yes -my reply to Dennis (who also spotted my mistake...) seems to > have vanished, but here's the outline- > Specctra 10.2 works well, and routes boards to completion that just > cause Protel's autorouter to sit still, doing nothing, or route 10% of the > tracks very badly, then sit still, doing nothing. Very disappointing - and > the DXP router seems to be just as useless on dense boards. (both work > OK on easy boards, but if a board's easy enough that Protel's router can > complete it, my customers want it smaller / cheaper rules / more > functionality / fewer layers (or all of the above)) > > > Specctra gave us a very good price to upgrade from V7.1 to 10.2... > > I'm not sure that 10.2 is a great improvement over 7.1 (or it wasn't > vastly better than 8.x, I just needed some ore layers, which forced the > upgrade) > If you want to send me a .dsn and a .do, I'll throw it at 10.2 and you can > see if it's worth the money. After all, no point in giving Cadence money > that could be spent on beer :) > > Steve > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork
Here are a few helpful links for the home proto board maker.. I manufactured boards back in the early 1970's and we made all our own manufacturing equipment. Things are of course different now, EPA guidelines on handling chemicals etc... can be a hurdle. I like the machines they have out now that actually mill the copper off the surface. No chemicals needed. http://www.t-tech.com/products/quickcircuit/multilayer.asp But you have to be able to afford the machine. If you could afford a system like that you could produce small quantities reasonably. Here's some links...enjoy. http://emporium.turnpike.net/~Kepro/etchkit.htm http://www.elexp.com/pro-pcb.htm http://www.gatewayelex.com/printedcir.htm http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/products.shtml http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/pcbproto.htm http://www.computronics.com.au/kinsten/index.shtml http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/0makepcb.html http://www.steveonweb.com/pcb.php http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm some fun reading there... good luck! Bill Brooks, CID -Original Message- From: Nagaraj [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:09 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork Hi Leo, To Avoid Drill bit Problem, Enable Show Holes Before taking Print, hope it will help you For me it works fine. Regards Nagaraj -Original Message- From: Leo Potjewijd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:56 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Direct printing of artwork At 16/06/2003 10:15, Robert Gillat wrote: >Hi, >A colleague of mine used to produce artwork on film using a laser printer. >The right sort of film was essential to ensure dimensional stability with >the heat of the laser printer. This yielded black tracks on a transparent >film. He then used a positive etch process to remove the photoresist which >had been exposed to light. It was a very simple procedure. I always >understood that this was the standard method, no need for negatives etc. I >notice that products are available that improve the density and definition >of a standard paper or film print using a contact method (Reprophane film). That is EXACTLY the process I have been using for the past eight years for all (100+ boards) my hobby projects Works like a charm! Positive sensitive PCBs are readily available and inexpensive (at least in the Netherlands :-). Exposure is possible with a large number of UV sources (skin tanning devices, mercury vapour lamps or even direct sunlight); for small boards it is even possible to use a strong (at least 350 Watts) incandescent lamp at short range. Be sure to test the optimum exposure time for your setup (light source, film type and contrast, distance, photo resist type and age!). Good contact between the film and board is essential, especially with long exposure times. After exposure I develop in a solution of caustic soda (2 teaspoons in 1 liter water) at room temperature, rinse thoroughly and test with a drop of diluted etchant (FeCl3) to see if all unwanted photoresist is gone. That way you can always develop some more after rinsing. Hell, I even re-exposed and then re-developed some boards that came out under developed Etching can be done with what you have available: Ammoniumpersulphate, FeCl3, even nitric acid (20% or so). Be careful and wear appropriate protection, these are ALL really MEAN chemicals. For the hasty people: things go better when heated above room temperature. Etching a 10 by 16 cm eurocard in FeCl3 at 60 C takes less than three minutes in a fresh, strong solution (I lost two boards this way because of a telephone call: the stayed in too long and had no copper left at all). DO NOT heat FeCl3 above 80 Celsius for it will produce a non-soluble deposit that interferes with the etching process. DO NOT heat Ammoniumpersulphate above 60 Celsius for it will decompose. DO NOT heat nitric acid at all, it is plenty reactive at roomtemperature The biggest problem I always have is the drilling: few drill stands are stable enough to use 18 mil tungsten drillbits without breaking them. Good luck! Leo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
