RE: A thanks to Slau and others; Pro tools Levels.
Ok Chuck, those are some hard words to crack in light of the current way of thinking, but I may start reevaluating some of this information in order to become better informed about all of it. Thanks for sharing From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CHUCK REICHEL Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 11:40 AM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A thanks to Slau and others; Pro tools Levels. Hi Poppa, What you noticed from that vocal session is where I basically keep my levels, for the last 13 years using PT. I've gotten very good results keeping it up there. I will admit you half to be very diligent while running levels up there! Heres some further clarification of the level discussion from my design Engineer friend. From tom Graefe My ANALOG console has a dynamic range greater than any Protools system. The -20 dB standard by Sony I set for the SDDS system I designed. The -20 dB is a reference for a nominal sound pressure level when mixing motion pictures. It allows 20 dB of headroom for the loud passages and a nominal sound pressure level to be the same in all Theaters. If you gave this guy some real test equipment and show him how to run it he would be surprised how foolish he really is. I have a $20,000.00 Audio Precision test set. If you run an IMD (intermodulation Distortion, a 4 to one mix of 60Hz and 7KHz) at -1dBFS and then do the same at -18 dBFS the IMD can be up to an order of magnitude higher. Your Buddy has no idea about how Digital audio or A/D converters work. Later Tom http://GraefeDesigns.com/ End of reply; So in conclusion! You can record at any level you want, that will determine the LEVEL of quality you get! I always refer back to the Creator for the real story! Your Signal to noise ratio mileage will definitely vary! :) Chuck On May 9, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Poppa Bear wrote: Thanks for sharing this Chuck, I am a bit on the fence about this still. I do understand that many plugs such as the waves are calibrated for about minus 18 DB or so, but at the same time there are controls to adjust many aspects of levels as well as the way plugs respond to signals and such. I had a friend who recorded a session in my studio yesterday with a client and when I checked his session after they left the vocals were sitting at only minus 4DB on the track and minus 10DB on the vocal bus and it sounded really good. Given he doesn't use many plugs and he recorded with compression from a Universal audio peace and as I said, it sounded pretty good with only a touch of reverb. I also notice that I have some clients who are so dynamic that I need to go even lower and some who really know how to project their selves in a consistent way into the mic and I can be less conservative on signal levels. From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CHUCK REICHEL Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 11:57 AM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A thanks to Slau and others Hi Poppa, Just a couple of clarifications for you from my life time Friend tom Graefe who was on the Sony Oxford console design teem. :) Heres a couple of quick pointers to remember when tracking. First 24 bit is the resolution of the A/D converter. Yes theoretically the Dynamic range of 24 bits is 144 dB. The reality of usable range is substantially less. That 140+dB has nothing to do with volume or sound pressure level. You should always record to maximum level before clipping to get the maximum signal to noise ratio when recording individual tracks. As you get further away from 0dBFS you start showing up more of the non linearities of the A/D process. This is especially noticeable at very low levels. There is no need for headroom when recording Digital. This is not tape. The A/D is most linear and least artifacts just before 0 dBFS. When designing a system you measure the IMD, Signal to Noise etc. of an A/D at -1 dBFS. Sometimes at -0.5 dBFS. Check out Tom's latest designs here; http://GraefeDesigns.com/ HTH Chuck CHUCK REICHEL soundpicturerecord...@gmail.com www.SoundPictureRecording.com 954-742-0019 GUFFAWING :) In GOD I Trust On May 8, 2014, at 11:11 AM, Poppa Bear wrote: I missed the talk, but in general I record vocals and instruments at about minus 9 to minus 12DB. I do still get projects to mix from clients where vocals are pushed to 0DB and the instrument track is often clipping so your not alone in your experience. - Original Message - From: Slau Halatyn mailto:slauhala...@gmail.com To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: A thanks to Slau and others Common mistake. People think they need to record as hot as possible and that's not the case. Back when DAWs recorded in 16 bits, it was common practice but with 24 bits, it's absolutely unnecessary. Glad it helped. Slau On May 8, 2014,
Re: A thanks to Slau and others; Pro tools Levels.
Hi Poppa, What you noticed from that vocal session is where I basically keep my levels, for the last 13 years using PT. I've gotten very good results keeping it up there. I will admit you half to be very diligent while running levels up there! Heres some further clarification of the level discussion from my design Engineer friend. From tom Graefe My ANALOG console has a dynamic range greater than any Protools system. The -20 dB standard by Sony I set for the SDDS system I designed. The -20 dB is a reference for a nominal sound pressure level when mixing motion pictures. It allows 20 dB of headroom for the loud passages and a nominal sound pressure level to be the same in all Theaters. If you gave this guy some real test equipment and show him how to run it he would be surprised how foolish he really is. I have a $20,000.00 Audio Precision test set. If you run an IMD (intermodulation Distortion, a 4 to one mix of 60Hz and 7KHz) at -1dBFS and then do the same at -18 dBFS the IMD can be up to an order of magnitude higher. Your Buddy has no idea about how Digital audio or A/D converters work. Later Tom http://GraefeDesigns.com/ End of reply; So in conclusion! You can record at any level you want, that will determine the LEVEL of quality you get! I always refer back to the Creator for the real story! Your Signal to noise ratio mileage will definitely vary! :) Chuck On May 9, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Poppa Bear wrote: Thanks for sharing this Chuck, I am a bit on the fence about this still. I do understand that many plugs such as the waves are calibrated for about minus 18 DB or so, but at the same time there are controls to adjust many aspects of levels as well as the way plugs respond to signals and such. I had a friend who recorded a session in my studio yesterday with a client and when I checked his session after they left the vocals were sitting at only minus 4DB on the track and minus 10DB on the vocal bus and it sounded really good. Given he doesn't use many plugs and he recorded with compression from a Universal audio peace and as I said, it sounded pretty good with only a touch of reverb. I also notice that I have some clients who are so dynamic that I need to go even lower and some who really know how to project their selves in a consistent way into the mic and I can be less conservative on signal levels. From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CHUCK REICHEL Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 11:57 AM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A thanks to Slau and others Hi Poppa, Just a couple of clarifications for you from my life time Friend tom Graefe who was on the Sony Oxford console design teem. :) Heres a couple of quick pointers to remember when tracking. First 24 bit is the resolution of the A/D converter. Yes theoretically the Dynamic range of 24 bits is 144 dB. The reality of usable range is substantially less. That 140+dB has nothing to do with volume or sound pressure level. You should always record to maximum level before clipping to get the maximum signal to noise ratio when recording individual tracks. As you get further away from 0dBFS you start showing up more of the non linearities of the A/D process. This is especially noticeable at very low levels. There is no need for headroom when recording Digital. This is not tape. The A/D is most linear and least artifacts just before 0 dBFS. When designing a system you measure the IMD, Signal to Noise etc. of an A/D at -1 dBFS. Sometimes at -0.5 dBFS. Check out Tom's latest designs here; http://GraefeDesigns.com/ HTH Chuck CHUCK REICHEL soundpicturerecord...@gmail.com www.SoundPictureRecording.com 954-742-0019 GUFFAWING :) In GOD I Trust On May 8, 2014, at 11:11 AM, Poppa Bear wrote: I missed the talk, but in general I record vocals and instruments at about minus 9 to minus 12DB. I do still get projects to mix from clients where vocals are pushed to 0DB and the instrument track is often clipping so your not alone in your experience. - Original Message - From: Slau Halatyn To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 4:33 AM Subject: Re: A thanks to Slau and others Common mistake. People think they need to record as hot as possible and that's not the case. Back when DAWs recorded in 16 bits, it was common practice but with 24 bits, it's absolutely unnecessary. Glad it helped. Slau On May 8, 2014, at 7:05 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Just wanted to thank everyone for their help yesterday with my issue regarding clipping and how to better set levels. Slau, I used the techniques that you outlined. I'll admit, it's a bit out of my comfort zone. I'm not use to recording initially at such a low impedance, but man! I did a track that way, then I raised the volume through
