Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On 10/18/2011 04:06 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote: Le mardi 18 octobre 2011 16:35:59 David Henningsson, vous avez écrit : Btw, as for recording microphone, that does seem adequate to me, e g if somebody records things like "Now look what happens when I press this button". Fair enough, but a PulseAudio client cannot cleanly ask PulseAudio to mix a microphone and a monitor, or can it? Hmm...not "cleanly", I think. I think that would require some loading of module-combine, -loopback or -null stuff, but other people here would know that stuff better than I. -- David Henningsson, Canonical Ltd. http://launchpad.net/~diwic ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Le mardi 18 octobre 2011 16:35:59 David Henningsson, vous avez écrit : > Btw, as for recording microphone, that does seem adequate to me, e g if > somebody records things like "Now look what happens when I press this > button". Fair enough, but a PulseAudio client cannot cleanly ask PulseAudio to mix a microphone and a monitor, or can it? -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ http://fi.linkedin.com/in/remidenis ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 15:31 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: > > Not true. If you select the fallback recording stream before you start > > recording, that's what VLC will get as the source. Also, if you select a > > source for VLC, it will "stick" thanks to module-*-restore, so after > > setting it once, you'll get that until you change it again. Or other > > things happen, like external headsets connected and stuff. There was a > > lengthy post about routing (and its future) from Colin Guthrie, but I > > can't find it now... Interwebs, help, please? > > Restoring assumes that one application always want the same source/sink. > If the application has only one profile, that's just fine. > > Precisely my problem is, VLC captures different things. And there is no > application other than VLC itself to take care of them: > * camera (V4L2): > Audio should come from the microphone unless otherwise stated. > * screen (X11): > Audio should come from the monitor of the default-or-whatever sink > unless otherwise stated. > * analog TV (V4L2 with frequency tuning): > Audio _must_ come from the ALSA card matching the V4L2 device node. > * digital TV (DVB): > Audio is (de)muxed. > > While restoring makes sense for each of the first two profile, it does not > make much sense (IMHO) across them. And the audio input of the ATV profile > should definitely not be saved, then restored in the camera or screen > profile. So the only real case is ATV, since DVB doesn't go through PA. And that's a special case that needs to be taken care of differently. But the user won't have to select anything here. > It all depends on whether the application has/needs a dialog. If it anyway > needs a dialog to setup the capture, be it select the video source, define > the encoding parameters or the destination, then relying on a separate > dialog in another application just for audio input is backward. > > I would actually like to avoid selecting the audio input. But that's why > I'm trying to find a way to select the correct one, with regards to the > selected capture type. I really don't care if the logic has to be in > PulseAudio or in VLC. But it does not seem that PulseAudio has enough at > this point :( Yup, a selector for media roles (or even better - automagically selecting what makes most sense) would be my preference, too. > > So what's preventing you from listing all possible input sources in VLC? > > That's doable, but it is probably not as seamless as could be. It gets > worse if PulseAudio remembers the selection and restores it for some > unrelated purpose next time. > > FWIW for plain audio capture, user can choose the input or let PA decide > already. I don't think with that we can get anything better, the user might want to record from any source available and no role selection will help. > > Show me one modern media player that has output devices choice list. Or > > video conferencing, where it would make even more sense (hint: neither > > Skype nor Empathy allow you to select sinks/sources). Volume control in > > e.g. banshee is just a proxy to PA. > > So? Volume control and output device selection in VLC 1.2 is just a proxy > to PA too. It still is useful. Like if I'm watching a video fullscreen, I'd > much rather adjust the volume on the VLC fullscreen controller than go back > to windowed mode and open KMix. Especially if my keyboard lacks multimedia > keys. I agree that a music player needs a volume slider, but a device selector - no. > Similarly, if the user has multiple audio outputs, say stereo and > surround, (s)he might want to change them. I admit I don't use this feature > myself, but there is ample evidence that a number of our users do, be they > based on PulseAudio or not. Not a device selector again. You should be able to select between some of stereo / (analog) surround / digital / passthrough, but not the device you want to use. > > Another thing I could imagine is a media role (are those even > > implemented for sources?) of "desktop-recorder" or similar, that will > > choose the monitor of the active sink for you. That's as far as I'd go, > > TBH, to handling this case. > > Yeah that would be good. But I reckon it's not there (yet) which is why > I'm asking what's the correct path. It seems the only solution is to list > all inputs then :/ (or extend PulseAudio but my free time is not > extensible.) Depends on what you want to spend your time on. Cheers, -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 14:22 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: > So where in pavucontrol do I select the VIDEO source? Duh? As stated in my previous email - there isn't a video mixer. Yet. > > Even Skype does that now. > > The drop-downs in Skype's sound preferences only contain "Pulseaudio" > > here. > > Skype is a voice call and videoconferencing tool. Using the default > PulseAudio source makes perfect sense there. First time, it will get the > default microphone. Next time, it will get the source that it had the > previous time if available. All is good for Skype. Nope, it doesn't work like that. Every time it will get the source that is most suitable for a VoIP app. Be it the only microphone, a USB headset, BT headset or whatever makes most sense. Not until you manually set a different source will PA restore the selected source for Skype. Or, actually, for all VoIP apps, in that case. > If the user selects desktop recording, this does not work. So the consensus seems to be that the best solution would be a new 'screencasting' media role, as both me and David pointed out in other posts. That should, IMO, as David wrote, include default microphone, too. You could mute it, of course, but I don't think a separate 'screencasting+mic' role would make sense. Turn that into a feature request on PA trac, please, would you? Cheers, -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On 10/18/2011 12:26 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote: Hello, One regularly requested feature addition for VLC media player is the ability to record desktop audio in sync with screen capture. This is theoretically feasible with a PulseAudio sink monitor source. But but, I am a it puzzled as how to record the correct source. In this case, the default source is obviously inadequate, as it would typically be the microphone. In particular, what to do if there are more than one sink, and thus more than one monitor?? Hmm. For your use case, it looks like we might need a new "media role" in PulseAudio for screencast recording, which would default to "the default sink's monitor", but that the user can change. Btw, as for recording microphone, that does seem adequate to me, e g if somebody records things like "Now look what happens when I press this button". -- David Henningsson, Canonical Ltd. http://launchpad.net/~diwic ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:05:31 +0200, Michał Sawicz wrote: >> The "volume control" tool would have two problems: >> - It only works after the record stream is started, so that the source >> output exists. For recording purpose, you'd want to select the source >> before you start the recording. > Not true. If you select the fallback recording stream before you start > recording, that's what VLC will get as the source. Also, if you select a > source for VLC, it will "stick" thanks to module-*-restore, so after > setting it once, you'll get that until you change it again. Or other > things happen, like external headsets connected and stuff. There was a > lengthy post about routing (and its future) from Colin Guthrie, but I > can't find it now... Interwebs, help, please? Restoring assumes that one application always want the same source/sink. If the application has only one profile, that's just fine. Precisely my problem is, VLC captures different things. And there is no application other than VLC itself to take care of them: * camera (V4L2): Audio should come from the microphone unless otherwise stated. * screen (X11): Audio should come from the monitor of the default-or-whatever sink unless otherwise stated. * analog TV (V4L2 with frequency tuning): Audio _must_ come from the ALSA card matching the V4L2 device node. * digital TV (DVB): Audio is (de)muxed. While restoring makes sense for each of the first two profile, it does not make much sense (IMHO) across them. And the audio input of the ATV profile should definitely not be saved, then restored in the camera or screen profile. >> - It has poor usability. The user would have to configure the >> application, >> including all parameters except the audio source and amplification. For >> those, it would have to open a separate application. > Depends on the definition of usability. Having different dialogs in > every single application dealing with audio source selection might be > poor usability to some. It all depends on whether the application has/needs a dialog. If it anyway needs a dialog to setup the capture, be it select the video source, define the encoding parameters or the destination, then relying on a separate dialog in another application just for audio input is backward. I would actually like to avoid selecting the audio input. But that's why I'm trying to find a way to select the correct one, with regards to the selected capture type. I really don't care if the logic has to be in PulseAudio or in VLC. But it does not seem that PulseAudio has enough at this point :( >> So I think it's fair for recording/streaming applications to act as their >> own "volume control tool". Of course, they should play good citizens with >> the other volume control tool(s) in the system, and in particular not >> actively fight changes initiated by the PulseAudio daemon or another >> PulseAudio client. > So what's preventing you from listing all possible input sources in VLC? That's doable, but it is probably not as seamless as could be. It gets worse if PulseAudio remembers the selection and restores it for some unrelated purpose next time. FWIW for plain audio capture, user can choose the input or let PA decide already. >> And in fact, the same applies partly to output (playback/streaming). Any >> reasonable media player has a volume control, and possibly a balance and >> an >> output devices choice list. So long as it lets PulseAudio set the initial >> values and does not prevent other tools from moving or tuning the sink >> input, I must say I don't see a problem. > Show me one modern media player that has output devices choice list. Or > video conferencing, where it would make even more sense (hint: neither > Skype nor Empathy allow you to select sinks/sources). Volume control in > e.g. banshee is just a proxy to PA. So? Volume control and output device selection in VLC 1.2 is just a proxy to PA too. It still is useful. Like if I'm watching a video fullscreen, I'd much rather adjust the volume on the VLC fullscreen controller than go back to windowed mode and open KMix. Especially if my keyboard lacks multimedia keys. Similarly, if the user has multiple audio outputs, say stereo and surround, (s)he might want to change them. I admit I don't use this feature myself, but there is ample evidence that a number of our users do, be they based on PulseAudio or not. > That's just how it was designed, and on purpose. I can imagine a common > (just as printing is now - you generally > always should get a printing dialog you know well) dialog for advanced > applications to choose sinks and sources for a particular app / role on > demand. But I'm not sure that's necessary and I haven't seen anyone step > up and write it. > > Another thing I could imagine is a media role (are those even > implemented for sources?) of "desktop-recorder" or similar, that will > choose the monitor of the active sink for you. That's as far as I'd go, > TBH, to handling this c
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 14:19 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: --8<-- > Video applications need to provide a choice of video sources (webcams, > desktop capture...). For this, there is no video mixer applications. In > terms of usability, I would expect to choose the audio source at the same > time as the video source. As you said - there is no video mixer application. Yet. > The "volume control" tool would have two problems: > - It only works after the record stream is started, so that the source > output exists. For recording purpose, you'd want to select the source > before you start the recording. Not true. If you select the fallback recording stream before you start recording, that's what VLC will get as the source. Also, if you select a source for VLC, it will "stick" thanks to module-*-restore, so after setting it once, you'll get that until you change it again. Or other things happen, like external headsets connected and stuff. There was a lengthy post about routing (and its future) from Colin Guthrie, but I can't find it now... Interwebs, help, please? > - It has poor usability. The user would have to configure the application, > including all parameters except the audio source and amplification. For > those, it would have to open a separate application. Depends on the definition of usability. Having different dialogs in every single application dealing with audio source selection might be poor usability to some. > So I think it's fair for recording/streaming applications to act as their > own "volume control tool". Of course, they should play good citizens with > the other volume control tool(s) in the system, and in particular not > actively fight changes initiated by the PulseAudio daemon or another > PulseAudio client. So what's preventing you from listing all possible input sources in VLC? > And in fact, the same applies partly to output (playback/streaming). Any > reasonable media player has a volume control, and possibly a balance and an > output devices choice list. So long as it lets PulseAudio set the initial > values and does not prevent other tools from moving or tuning the sink > input, I must say I don't see a problem. Show me one modern media player that has output devices choice list. Or video conferencing, where it would make even more sense (hint: neither Skype nor Empathy allow you to select sinks/sources). Volume control in e.g. banshee is just a proxy to PA. That's just how it was designed, and on purpose. I can imagine a common (just as printing is now - you generally always should get a printing dialog you know well) dialog for advanced applications to choose sinks and sources for a particular app / role on demand. But I'm not sure that's necessary and I haven't seen anyone step up and write it. Another thing I could imagine is a media role (are those even implemented for sources?) of "desktop-recorder" or similar, that will choose the monitor of the active sink for you. That's as far as I'd go, TBH, to handling this case. Cheers, -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:15:13 +0200, Michał Sawicz wrote: > Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 14:03 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: >> If the user has selected "I want to record (or stream) my desktop", >> how does the application get hold of the desktop audio? In other words >> how should it select "a" sink monitor source? > "It" as in "the application" should not, at all. Oh really? > The user should select > that monitor in his volume-control of choice. So where in pavucontrol do I select the VIDEO source? Duh? > Even Skype does that now. > The drop-downs in Skype's sound preferences only contain "Pulseaudio" > here. Skype is a voice call and videoconferencing tool. Using the default PulseAudio source makes perfect sense there. First time, it will get the default microphone. Next time, it will get the source that it had the previous time if available. All is good for Skype. If the user selects desktop recording, this does not work. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:38:39 +0200, Michał Sawicz wrote: > Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 13:33 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: >> Eh? The user doing the recording typically wants to hear the sound >> while recording. So I don't see what null sink has to do here. > As long as you only want to record your speakers, then just record the > monitor of the output sink. The null / loopbacks can help if you want to > record microphone, too. > >> > Obviously that's not relevant to VLC itself, it's through >> > pactl/pacmd (sorry) and pavucontrol that you need to select the >> > appropriate recording source. >> >> So that's not an answer to the problem. > Yes it is. VLC isn't the place to choose recording inputs. Volume > control tools are the place to do so. That's a different topic. But while this looks like a popular conception among PulseAudio developers, I have to partly disagree. Video applications need to provide a choice of video sources (webcams, desktop capture...). For this, there is no video mixer applications. In terms of usability, I would expect to choose the audio source at the same time as the video source. The "volume control" tool would have two problems: - It only works after the record stream is started, so that the source output exists. For recording purpose, you'd want to select the source before you start the recording. - It has poor usability. The user would have to configure the application, including all parameters except the audio source and amplification. For those, it would have to open a separate application. So I think it's fair for recording/streaming applications to act as their own "volume control tool". Of course, they should play good citizens with the other volume control tool(s) in the system, and in particular not actively fight changes initiated by the PulseAudio daemon or another PulseAudio client. And in fact, the same applies partly to output (playback/streaming). Any reasonable media player has a volume control, and possibly a balance and an output devices choice list. So long as it lets PulseAudio set the initial values and does not prevent other tools from moving or tuning the sink input, I must say I don't see a problem. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 14:03 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: > If the user has selected "I want to record (or stream) my desktop", > how does the application get hold of the desktop audio? In other words > how should it select "a" sink monitor source? "It" as in "the application" should not, at all. The user should select that monitor in his volume-control of choice. Even Skype does that now. The drop-downs in Skype's sound preferences only contain "Pulseaudio" here. -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:38:39 +0200, Michał Sawicz wrote: > Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 13:33 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: >> Eh? The user doing the recording typically wants to hear the sound >> while recording. So I don't see what null sink has to do here. > As long as you only want to record your speakers, then just record the > monitor of the output sink. The null / loopbacks can help if you want to > record microphone, too. > >> > Obviously that's not relevant to VLC itself, it's through >> > pactl/pacmd (sorry) and pavucontrol that you need to select the >> > appropriate recording source. >> >> So that's not an answer to the problem. > Yes it is. VLC isn't the place to choose recording inputs. Volume > control tools are the place to do so. > Can you describe your complete usecase? 'Cause I fail to see the actual > issue at hand. If the user has selected "I want to record (or stream) my desktop", how does the application get hold of the desktop audio? In other words how should it select "a" sink monitor source? -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 13:33 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: > Eh? The user doing the recording typically wants to hear the sound > while recording. So I don't see what null sink has to do here. As long as you only want to record your speakers, then just record the monitor of the output sink. The null / loopbacks can help if you want to record microphone, too. > > Obviously that's not relevant to VLC itself, it's through > > pactl/pacmd (sorry) and pavucontrol that you need to select the > > appropriate recording source. > > So that's not an answer to the problem. Yes it is. VLC isn't the place to choose recording inputs. Volume control tools are the place to do so. Can you describe your complete usecase? 'Cause I fail to see the actual issue at hand. Regards, -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:55:13 +0200, Michał Sawicz wrote: > Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 12:26 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: >> One regularly requested feature addition for VLC media player is the >> ability to record desktop audio in sync with screen capture. >> This is theoretically feasible with a PulseAudio sink monitor source. >> But but, I am a it puzzled as how to record the correct source. In >> this case, the default source is obviously inadequate, as it would >> typically be the microphone. In particular, what to do if there are >> more than one sink, and thus more than one monitor?? > > See http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/Modules and read about > module-null-sink and module-loopback. You can obviously only record from > one source (for screencasting - probably a monitor), but you can also > loop back any number of sources to the sink whose monitor you're > recording. That can be a null sink, too, so that you don't get feedback > through your speakers. Eh? The user doing the recording typically wants to hear the sound while recording. So I don't see what null sink has to do here. > Obviously that's not relevant to VLC itself, it's through pactl/pacmd > (sorry) and pavucontrol that you need to select the appropriate > recording source. So that's not an answer to the problem. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Dnia 2011-10-18, wto o godzinie 12:26 +0200, Rémi Denis-Courmont pisze: > One regularly requested feature addition for VLC media player is the > ability to record desktop audio in sync with screen capture. > This is theoretically feasible with a PulseAudio sink monitor source. > But but, I am a it puzzled as how to record the correct source. In > this case, the default source is obviously inadequate, as it would > typically be the microphone. In particular, what to do if there are > more than one sink, and thus more than one monitor?? See http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/Modules and read about module-null-sink and module-loopback. You can obviously only record from one source (for screencasting - probably a monitor), but you can also loop back any number of sources to the sink whose monitor you're recording. That can be a null sink, too, so that you don't get feedback through your speakers. Obviously that's not relevant to VLC itself, it's through pactl/pacmd (sorry) and pavucontrol that you need to select the appropriate recording source. Cheers, -- Michał (Saviq) Sawicz signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
[pulseaudio-discuss] Screen casting with PulseAudio
Hello, One regularly requested feature addition for VLC media player is the ability to record desktop audio in sync with screen capture. This is theoretically feasible with a PulseAudio sink monitor source. But but, I am a it puzzled as how to record the correct source. In this case, the default source is obviously inadequate, as it would typically be the microphone. In particular, what to do if there are more than one sink, and thus more than one monitor?? -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
