Re: [Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
On Sat, Dec 07, 2013 at 10:11:24AM +1300, xav wrote: On Fri, 2013-12-06 at 11:31 -0500, Jerald Sheets wrote: Please note that the exact same documentation is expected to be used for either and people spending crap-tons of money are expected to put up with the same issues. This is not a licensed/open source argument. This is a do a better job of documentation argument. I shouldn't have to go hunt down other admins in my town to learn things with/from because none of us can make sense of the documentation...or its wrong... or it ignores systems or development best practices, or whatever your particular gripe may be. Puppet is the best there is, but it (and its docs) can be better. This feels like it's a very negative discussion and I wanted to highlight my own experiences with Puppetlabs. Puppetlabs make their money in part from their excellent additions to the open source version (which makes deployment a bunch easier), but also from paid support engagements - if someone wants to pay them to update the docs for the open source parts, they will. If not then we either wait for them to get the time to do so, or we submit a pull request. We're not talking about a company the size of Google here, Puppetlabs doesn't have large bunches of cash to throw around, and my overall experience of the Puppet documentation has been excellent. The particular page in the bug report was extremely helpful when I started out with Puppet. I'd be keen to see more examples and helpful tutorials, but that's not core product documentation - the actual reference documentation on the puppetlabs site is bang up to date, complete, and way beyond the level of documentation available for many other products that sell for big money. And even better, if that's not enough the source is very readable and well commented. There are several areas in the documentation where gaps exist, and I commend Puppetlabs for highlighting these and over time filling them in. The product is still in active development and over time just gets better and better. Exactly my thoughts on the subject. Basically if you don't like the documentation you can research the problem(in this case custom providers) and then just populate the missing gaps in the documentation. This is how most of the open source projects out there improve their documentation. If for some reason your pull request is REJECTED then this is a different topic and is one I will be mad about(if at all possible) The fact is that the puppet project has one of the best documentations I have seen out there. Maybe it's just me but I find my around REALLY FAST these days. -- Nikola -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/1386364284.6023.33.camel%40debian.my.home. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/20131212170232.GD17003%40nikolavp-desktop. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
Hi xav, very good reply, and I'd like to second the notion that puppet is indeed an impressive example of open source software, especially wrt. the quality of its documentation. On 12/06/2013 10:11 PM, xav wrote: I'd be keen to see more examples and helpful tutorials, but that's not core product documentation - the actual reference documentation on the puppetlabs site is bang up to date, complete, and way beyond the level of documentation available for many other products that sell for big money. And even better, if that's not enough the source is very readable and well commented. Again, good point, but I have to differ on the last bit. Close to the core (the type/provider subsystem being a good example), it can become daunting to grasp the ideas from reading only code and comments - for me at least. That being said, the team has been and is making a valiant effort to improve the in-code documentation and the progress there is outstanding as well. Cheers, Felix -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/52A5E211.1060807%40alumni.tu-berlin.de. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
(inline) On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 05:35:13PM -0800, Philip Brown wrote: https://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/14368#change-101086 Summary: (We dont need to improve our public documentation, because people can go BUY documentation for puppet) I can understand changing it to low priority or something. But *Rejecting* this issue? For a supposedly free, open source project? Really? I think we've tripped over the distinction between libre and gratis, wikipedia having a useful summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre Possibly consider all the work you've put into implementing puppet on your own systems, and consequently how obtaining puppet gratis doesn't mean that it's free of cost. This does not motivate me to continue advocating for use of puppet, let alone developing for it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit [1]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/83b76366-d703-469f-a3fe-4b1fe8d28b58%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit [2]https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. References Visible links 1. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/83b76366-d703-469f-a3fe-4b1fe8d28b58%40googlegroups.com 2. https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/20131206161806.GA19589%40iniquitous.heresiarch.ca. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
Possibly consider all the work you've put into implementing puppet on your own systems, and consequently how obtaining puppet gratis doesn't mean that it's free of cost. Please note that the exact same documentation is expected to be used for either and people spending crap-tons of money are expected to put up with the same issues. This is not a licensed/open source argument. This is a do a better job of documentation argument. I shouldn't have to go hunt down other admins in my town to learn things with/from because none of us can make sense of the documentation...or its wrong... or it ignores systems or development best practices, or whatever your particular gripe may be. Puppet is the best there is, but it (and its docs) can be better. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/CAAE6QHx57XDit4nnrWD6m7nFN6F1GBhfmJpAH5%2B9m5mei2s0Bw%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
On Fri, 2013-12-06 at 11:31 -0500, Jerald Sheets wrote: Please note that the exact same documentation is expected to be used for either and people spending crap-tons of money are expected to put up with the same issues. This is not a licensed/open source argument. This is a do a better job of documentation argument. I shouldn't have to go hunt down other admins in my town to learn things with/from because none of us can make sense of the documentation...or its wrong... or it ignores systems or development best practices, or whatever your particular gripe may be. Puppet is the best there is, but it (and its docs) can be better. This feels like it's a very negative discussion and I wanted to highlight my own experiences with Puppetlabs. Puppetlabs make their money in part from their excellent additions to the open source version (which makes deployment a bunch easier), but also from paid support engagements - if someone wants to pay them to update the docs for the open source parts, they will. If not then we either wait for them to get the time to do so, or we submit a pull request. We're not talking about a company the size of Google here, Puppetlabs doesn't have large bunches of cash to throw around, and my overall experience of the Puppet documentation has been excellent. The particular page in the bug report was extremely helpful when I started out with Puppet. I'd be keen to see more examples and helpful tutorials, but that's not core product documentation - the actual reference documentation on the puppetlabs site is bang up to date, complete, and way beyond the level of documentation available for many other products that sell for big money. And even better, if that's not enough the source is very readable and well commented. There are several areas in the documentation where gaps exist, and I commend Puppetlabs for highlighting these and over time filling them in. The product is still in active development and over time just gets better and better. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/1386364284.6023.33.camel%40debian.my.home. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[Puppet Users] Unpleasant puppetlabs experience
https://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/14368#change-101086 Summary: (We dont need to improve our public documentation, because people can go BUY documentation for puppet) I can understand changing it to low priority or something. But *Rejecting* this issue? For a supposedly free, open source project? Really? This does not motivate me to continue advocating for use of puppet, let alone developing for it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Puppet Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to puppet-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-users/83b76366-d703-469f-a3fe-4b1fe8d28b58%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
