Re: [pygame] peer-to-peer networked games

[Toni Alatalo]

Kris Schnee kirjoitti:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
The Croquet Project seems to be similar to that. The indie game 
Minecraft is apparently going to have servers linked so that a 
character can walk from one server's world to another.


Yep Croquet is p2p, has Squeak roots (I'm sure that rings some bells on 
this list). The protocol is called Tea Time iirc :)


Didn't know that about Minecraft, interesting.

A question that Croquet brings up is how to spread out the computation 
between computers. There's a project called OpenSimulator that sets up 
independent servers for the game Second Life, but I believe that works 
on a more standard client/server arrangement. Croquet is set up so 


Yep Opensimulator is a traditional server, or at least currently only 
used like that. It is somewhat a generic framework for making 3d apps, 
but is now used as a server for clients talking the SL protocol.


that the calculation is done on every machine, which is inefficient 
but ensures every machine does the same thing... at the cost of the 
system being as slow as the slowest PC, if I understand right. At the 
other end of the scale, with Minecraft it'd probably be possible for 
one server to let players easily get hoards of valuable items, then 
try to walk onto a higher-difficulty server with items intact. So for 
a game you'd have to think about which machine enforces the rules 
against cheaters, and the more centralized it is, the more it's like 
the client/server setup.


Yah reportedly Croquet runs at the FPS of the slowest participant. I 
haven't tested it personally yet, have just been happy to see cool 
videos if their smalltalky stuff .. like being able to right-click any 
object in the scene and start editing it's code in some funky embedded 
editor, save changes, and have the environment recompile(?) and run the 
modified version .. of the simple 3d object which you just touched.


If someone wants to test out building a Python P2P gaming system, 
don't assume it has to be for real-time 3D games! Why not try making a 
P2P text MU?


Indeed, though also in MUDs the action is very fast, so is the prob much 
different? ;)


We are working on a project called realXtend, which originally started 
as a prototype with a modified second life (tm) viewer and opensim 
server, adding some new packets to the protocol to support features like 
meshes .. we use ogre for rendering. We have now written a new 
implementation of it from scratch, called Naali, where can use the same 
code as client and server, and for the app code the protocol used is 
somewhat invisible. Are currently using traditional client-server setup, 
but somewhat interested in p2p and perhaps will test something with that 
at some point .. not in near future (coming months) though. BTW Naali 
embeds py and js so you can write games and new protocol implementations 
in e.g. python :) . This work is why I know opensim(ulator) (we use it 
as the server, when not using Naali itself as a small light alternative) 
and should study Croquet more too..


~Toni

Re: [pygame] PATCH: OTF fonts in windows/linux

[Ian Katz]

I changed initsysfonts_unix() and verified that it was able to render
fonts from .OTF files in Ubuntu Lucid.

I didn't change anything in the OSX section of get_fonts()
[initsysfonts_darwin()], because the way they are scanned has nothing
to do with the extension of the font file.

I changed initsysfonts_win32() but did not test it; I expect the same
positive result as I got in linux.

-Ian

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Nirav Patel  wrote:
> Looks good to me.  Has this been tested on OS X as well?
>
> Nirav
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Ian Katz  wrote:
>> Even though freetype supports OTF fonts, it looks like they are
>> rejected by pygame because of their extension.  This patch enables
>> .otf fonts in pygame.font.get_fonts().
>>
>> It's minimally tested (i.e., the enabled OTF fonts render properly),
>> but seems to work.
>>
>> -Ian
>>
>> --
>> Ian Katz
>> Research Engineer, MIT Sea Grant AUV Laboratory
>> i...@mit.edu / 617 253 9312
>>
>



-- 
Ian Katz
Research Engineer, MIT Sea Grant AUV Laboratory
i...@mit.edu / 617 253 9312

Re: [pygame] peer-to-peer networked games

[RB[0]]

Rendering engine is irrelevant...
You could use pygame, OpenGL, PySoy or even Direct3D if you wanted.
The trick is writing the network part, the gfx just has to represent that...

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Miriam English wrote:

> Interesting. Thank you Gumm.
>
> I haven't tried ODE physics library for a while. It worked fine under
> MSWindows, but I had tremendous problems compiling it under Linux. I should
> have another look at it. I wonder why they don't use Bullet like Blender
> does. Hmmm.
>
> While it seems pysoy isn't specifically aimed at peer-to-peer, there are
> hints that it could be used that way. Otherwise it seems to use a
> cloud-based server and ordinary clients, so would still end up with the same
> old bottlenecks and limitations, I think.
>
> Thanks for the pointer,
>
>- Miriam
>
> B W wrote:
>
>> If you can work with OpenGL, might keep your eye on PySoy.
>>
>> http://www.pysoy.org/
>>
>> Gumm
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Miriam English 
>> > m...@miriam-english.org>> wrote:
>>
>>Wow! Thanks Kris.
>>
>>I hadn't heard of this one. Croquet sounds very interesting. I
>>didn't understand it all in my first quick read-through, but I'll
>>look much more carefully at it after I've finished my story. I've
>>built virtual worlds before and this seems like a great environment
>>to work in. Fancy being able to edit source and have the
>>modifications appear in realtime without stopping and reloading!
>>Neat. Pity it's not python though. :)
>>
>>Yes, I've had a look at Minecraft and was very impressed with its
>>cuteness, even though it looks very basic. I had no idea it was
>>intended to let servers to share data like that. That's nearly p2p
>>right there. All it takes is for every client machine to also be a
>>server. (Well, not quite, but almost...)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>   - Miriam
>>
>>
>>Kris Schnee wrote:
>>
>>On 2010.11.5 8:09 PM, Miriam English wrote:
>>
>>Okay, I've found some stuff that I hadn't heard of before
>>that some of
>>you folks might be interested in:
>>
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
>>The Croquet Project seems to be similar to that. The indie game
>>Minecraft is apparently going to have servers linked so that a
>>character can walk from one server's world to another.
>>
>>A question that Croquet brings up is how to spread out the
>>computation between computers. There's a project called
>>OpenSimulator that sets up independent servers for the game
>>Second Life, but I believe that works on a more standard
>>client/server arrangement. Croquet is set up so that the
>>calculation is done on every machine, which is inefficient but
>>ensures every machine does the same thing... at the cost of the
>>system being as slow as the slowest PC, if I understand right.
>>At the other end of the scale, with Minecraft it'd probably be
>>possible for one server to let players easily get hoards of
>>valuable items, then try to walk onto a higher-difficulty server
>>with items intact. So for a game you'd have to think about which
>>machine enforces the rules against cheaters, and the more
>>centralized it is, the more it's like the client/server setup.
>>
>>If someone wants to test out building a Python P2P gaming
>>system, don't assume it has to be for real-time 3D games! Why
>>not try making a P2P text MU?
>>
>>
>>
>>-- If you don't have any failures then you're not trying hard
>> enough.
>> - Dr. Charles Elachi, director of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>>-
>>Website: http://miriam-english.org
>>Blog: http://miriam_e.livejournal.com
>>
>>
>>
> --
> If you don't have any failures then you're not trying hard enough.
>  - Dr. Charles Elachi, director of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> -
> Website: http://miriam-english.org
> Blog: http://miriam_e.livejournal.com
>

Re: [pygame] peer-to-peer networked games

[Miriam English]

Interesting. Thank you Gumm.

I haven't tried ODE physics library for a while. It worked fine under 
MSWindows, but I had tremendous problems compiling it under Linux. I 
should have another look at it. I wonder why they don't use Bullet like 
Blender does. Hmmm.


While it seems pysoy isn't specifically aimed at peer-to-peer, there are 
hints that it could be used that way. Otherwise it seems to use a 
cloud-based server and ordinary clients, so would still end up with the 
same old bottlenecks and limitations, I think.


Thanks for the pointer,

- Miriam

B W wrote:

If you can work with OpenGL, might keep your eye on PySoy.

http://www.pysoy.org/

Gumm

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Miriam English > wrote:


Wow! Thanks Kris.

I hadn't heard of this one. Croquet sounds very interesting. I
didn't understand it all in my first quick read-through, but I'll
look much more carefully at it after I've finished my story. I've
built virtual worlds before and this seems like a great environment
to work in. Fancy being able to edit source and have the
modifications appear in realtime without stopping and reloading!
Neat. Pity it's not python though. :)

Yes, I've had a look at Minecraft and was very impressed with its
cuteness, even though it looks very basic. I had no idea it was
intended to let servers to share data like that. That's nearly p2p
right there. All it takes is for every client machine to also be a
server. (Well, not quite, but almost...)

Cheers,

   - Miriam


Kris Schnee wrote:

On 2010.11.5 8:09 PM, Miriam English wrote:

Okay, I've found some stuff that I hadn't heard of before
that some of
you folks might be interested in:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
The Croquet Project seems to be similar to that. The indie game
Minecraft is apparently going to have servers linked so that a
character can walk from one server's world to another.

A question that Croquet brings up is how to spread out the
computation between computers. There's a project called
OpenSimulator that sets up independent servers for the game
Second Life, but I believe that works on a more standard
client/server arrangement. Croquet is set up so that the
calculation is done on every machine, which is inefficient but
ensures every machine does the same thing... at the cost of the
system being as slow as the slowest PC, if I understand right.
At the other end of the scale, with Minecraft it'd probably be
possible for one server to let players easily get hoards of
valuable items, then try to walk onto a higher-difficulty server
with items intact. So for a game you'd have to think about which
machine enforces the rules against cheaters, and the more
centralized it is, the more it's like the client/server setup.

If someone wants to test out building a Python P2P gaming
system, don't assume it has to be for real-time 3D games! Why
not try making a P2P text MU?



-- 
If you don't have any failures then you're not trying hard enough.

 - Dr. Charles Elachi, director of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
-
Website: http://miriam-english.org
Blog: http://miriam_e.livejournal.com




--
If you don't have any failures then you're not trying hard enough.
 - Dr. Charles Elachi, director of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
-
Website: http://miriam-english.org
Blog: http://miriam_e.livejournal.com