Re: [pygame][website] A different approach to a new website
Pygame is dead. Still a very capable library, but it isn't really going anywhere from what I can see, and I have little faith that the website will go anywhere no matter who tries to help out. You posted yourself all of the failed efforts in this area, what makes you think you will succeed? I recommend making a wider python-related game development website that does not focus only on pygame. There are many other options out there - pysdl2, pygame2, python-sfml, pyopengl, pyglet, and more that I have played with in the past but cannot remember right now. Having a project repository focused around python, and with information about various libraries, but NOT focused on a specific library would be the best approach forward in my opinion. A good example of what I would like to see is haxe.io. It highlights cool mostly game related things being done with haxe, and you can find out about new libraries. There are various good blogs in the python world that focus on web development, but not many that highlight games. And each python game library has it's own little corner (in pygame's case, a very old and broken corner that new visitors walk or run away from very quickly) without much crossover. On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 5:18 AM, DiliupG wrote: > Why don't you start working on the site and open it in a separate place > and call it pygame 2016 something? Else we will end up going round and > round with these long dialogs with nothing really happening. It could be > www.pygame2016.blogspot.com or something similar. > > Diliup Gabadamudalige > > On 21 Sep 2016 4:08 p.m., "Alex Z." wrote: > >> > These kinds of proposals would be much more successful if Alex were >> able to come to the mailing list with a fully functioning demo using live >> data that could be commented on and iterated on by the community. >> See this: > - a complete redesign that never got launched (11-2009): >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/pygame-mirror-on- >> google-groups/rUC5CrroA3U/TzWTWL5cFOUJ >> There was an approach like this. As the site maintainers didn't like the >> site, it never got launched, that's why I didn't come up with a solution. >> Although I might do some prototypical views. >> >> > Pygame needs a site where a community can form around and share our >> works (like right now!), and where new people can understand how to get >> going and discover Pygame at their speed, using the OS that happens to be >> in front of them. On that last point, I speak for kids who want to make >> games and who don’t get a choice of their OS, in contrast to us adult >> engineers. >> I agree, that's the main reason why I want a page redesign. Of course >> it's nice to have a good looking website, but what's *always *more >> important than appearance is content and ease of use. As an experienced dev >> you can handle poorly designed websites and still find what you are looking >> for (mostly), but a beginner (children / young students) will just be like: >> "screw it, then I'll just go back doing whatever". So I really feel the >> need to make the site "child-friendly" (why not just do a second site for >> that? --> read below). Nevertheless as a designer I got a fable for >> good-looking aesthetics. >> >> > leave the old pygame site alone and build any amount of new ones. We >> will all visit everyone according to our need. Aren't there hundreds of >> Python sites? >> Yes, there are hundreds of Python sites, but often they got different >> topics to talk about. We are talking about a website for (more-or-less) a >> Python-library. I think if we had many sites that (in the worst case) are >> fighting a tough SEO battle about who is the better site, it will lead to >> more confusion than we already got with the single site. Even worse if >> these two sites offer similar functionality. >> >> > My question to you is, why does the Pygame website have to be built >> from scratch as a custom solution? >> In the head description of the form I state: >> > Whether the old site is updated or we do a complete redesign, how hard >> it will be to port the old data and who will maintain it is not important >> in this first step. >> Sorry that I didn't mention this in my post, I don't think that it is >> impossible to gradually improve the old site, but to know if it's possible >> we need to know, what needs to be improved. After that, I can talk to the >> site owners if the desired features can be implemented by improvement, or >> if we need a completely new site. >> By the way: illumine stated (first link in my post): >> > The current website is made with PHP and some website technology made >> by Phil which he used to make dozens of websites professionaly. This is >> what Phil chose to use as the website maintainer in early 2005. >> > [..] This time we decided it would be better to do it in python, and >> also have a team of website maintainers. Since not so many pygame >> developers people know PHP, and that has meant that it's been a bit >> difficult for us
Re: [pygame][website] A different approach to a new website
It's been a while since I've looked at the state of Pygame, and although I'd say Pygame is dying, it's (Monty Python voice) "not dead yet." And I'm still not convinced the alternatives are much better than Pygame. But it really will take a committed person to take the lead on this. Unfortunately, without the Pygame name and pygame.org domain behind such new leadership, then Pygame will indeed slowly keep sinking. If you fork with a new name, it'll end up as just yet another Pygame alternative. I will say that the old pygame.org site wasn't perfect but is far better than the current site. The current site is a huge step backwards in usability. On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Patrick Mullen wrote: > Pygame is dead. Still a very capable library, but it isn't really going > anywhere from what I can see, and I have little faith that the website will > go anywhere no matter who tries to help out. You posted yourself all of the > failed efforts in this area, what makes you think you will succeed? I > recommend making a wider python-related game development website that does > not focus only on pygame. There are many other options out there - pysdl2, > pygame2, python-sfml, pyopengl, pyglet, and more that I have played with in > the past but cannot remember right now. Having a project repository focused > around python, and with information about various libraries, but NOT > focused on a specific library would be the best approach forward in my > opinion. A good example of what I would like to see is haxe.io. It > highlights cool mostly game related things being done with haxe, and you > can find out about new libraries. There are various good blogs in the > python world that focus on web development, but not many that highlight > games. And each python game library has it's own little corner (in pygame's > case, a very old and broken corner that new visitors walk or run away from > very quickly) without much crossover. > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 5:18 AM, DiliupG wrote: > >> Why don't you start working on the site and open it in a separate place >> and call it pygame 2016 something? Else we will end up going round and >> round with these long dialogs with nothing really happening. It could be >> www.pygame2016.blogspot.com or something similar. >> >> Diliup Gabadamudalige >> >> On 21 Sep 2016 4:08 p.m., "Alex Z." wrote: >> >>> > These kinds of proposals would be much more successful if Alex were >>> able to come to the mailing list with a fully functioning demo using live >>> data that could be commented on and iterated on by the community. >>> See this: > - a complete redesign that never got launched (11-2009): >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/pygame-mirror-on- >>> google-groups/rUC5CrroA3U/TzWTWL5cFOUJ >>> There was an approach like this. As the site maintainers didn't like the >>> site, it never got launched, that's why I didn't come up with a solution. >>> Although I might do some prototypical views. >>> >>> > Pygame needs a site where a community can form around and share our >>> works (like right now!), and where new people can understand how to get >>> going and discover Pygame at their speed, using the OS that happens to be >>> in front of them. On that last point, I speak for kids who want to make >>> games and who don’t get a choice of their OS, in contrast to us adult >>> engineers. >>> I agree, that's the main reason why I want a page redesign. Of course >>> it's nice to have a good looking website, but what's *always *more >>> important than appearance is content and ease of use. As an experienced dev >>> you can handle poorly designed websites and still find what you are looking >>> for (mostly), but a beginner (children / young students) will just be like: >>> "screw it, then I'll just go back doing whatever". So I really feel the >>> need to make the site "child-friendly" (why not just do a second site for >>> that? --> read below). Nevertheless as a designer I got a fable for >>> good-looking aesthetics. >>> >>> > leave the old pygame site alone and build any amount of new ones. We >>> will all visit everyone according to our need. Aren't there hundreds of >>> Python sites? >>> Yes, there are hundreds of Python sites, but often they got different >>> topics to talk about. We are talking about a website for (more-or-less) a >>> Python-library. I think if we had many sites that (in the worst case) are >>> fighting a tough SEO battle about who is the better site, it will lead to >>> more confusion than we already got with the single site. Even worse if >>> these two sites offer similar functionality. >>> >>> > My question to you is, why does the Pygame website have to be built >>> from scratch as a custom solution? >>> In the head description of the form I state: >>> > Whether the old site is updated or we do a complete redesign, how hard >>> it will be to port the old data and who will maintain it is not important >>> in this first step. >>> Sorry that I didn't mention this in my post,
Re: [pygame][website] A different approach to a new website
There's a really frustrating disconnect over pygame, and especially the website: there are lots of people who are clearly have the time and ability to improve things, but they are not the ones with access to the website. The people who do have access evidently have very little time to devote to either working on it themselves, or to facilitate other people working on it. The domain name does matter - you can launch alternative sites, but as long as pygame.org exists, we're going to care about what's on it. I have been trying to persuade René to publish the code of the existing website ( https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/263/make-pygame-website-codes-public ) so other people can work on it, but so far the only bit available are some database models, which we can't do much with. I think it's fallen into the classic trap of "I'll release this when I've cleaned it up", meaning it never gets released at all. I think the new 'hifi' front page is an interesting experiment in novel site layout, but as things stand I think it is less fit for purpose than the conventional if antiquated site it replaced. With a lot of thought and effort, I think it could be the basis of something good, but it seems unlikely that it will get that reworking in the near future. René, if you're reading this: what would it take to connect the website with the people with time and enthusiasm to work on it? If you're willing to give me SSH access to the server it's on - or even just send me a tarball of the directory it runs from now - I'll try to figure out how it fits together and how we can allow people to make changes. Thanks, Thomas On 27 September 2016 at 19:58, Al Sweigart wrote: > It's been a while since I've looked at the state of Pygame, and although > I'd say Pygame is dying, it's (Monty Python voice) "not dead yet." And I'm > still not convinced the alternatives are much better than Pygame. > > But it really will take a committed person to take the lead on this. > Unfortunately, without the Pygame name and pygame.org domain behind such > new leadership, then Pygame will indeed slowly keep sinking. If you fork > with a new name, it'll end up as just yet another Pygame alternative. > > I will say that the old pygame.org site wasn't perfect but is far better > than the current site. The current site is a huge step backwards in > usability. > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Patrick Mullen > wrote: > >> Pygame is dead. Still a very capable library, but it isn't really going >> anywhere from what I can see, and I have little faith that the website will >> go anywhere no matter who tries to help out. You posted yourself all of the >> failed efforts in this area, what makes you think you will succeed? I >> recommend making a wider python-related game development website that does >> not focus only on pygame. There are many other options out there - pysdl2, >> pygame2, python-sfml, pyopengl, pyglet, and more that I have played with in >> the past but cannot remember right now. Having a project repository focused >> around python, and with information about various libraries, but NOT >> focused on a specific library would be the best approach forward in my >> opinion. A good example of what I would like to see is haxe.io. It >> highlights cool mostly game related things being done with haxe, and you >> can find out about new libraries. There are various good blogs in the >> python world that focus on web development, but not many that highlight >> games. And each python game library has it's own little corner (in pygame's >> case, a very old and broken corner that new visitors walk or run away from >> very quickly) without much crossover. >> >> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 5:18 AM, DiliupG wrote: >> >>> Why don't you start working on the site and open it in a separate place >>> and call it pygame 2016 something? Else we will end up going round and >>> round with these long dialogs with nothing really happening. It could be >>> www.pygame2016.blogspot.com or something similar. >>> >>> Diliup Gabadamudalige >>> >>> On 21 Sep 2016 4:08 p.m., "Alex Z." wrote: >>> > These kinds of proposals would be much more successful if Alex were able to come to the mailing list with a fully functioning demo using live data that could be commented on and iterated on by the community. See this: > - a complete redesign that never got launched (11-2009): https://groups.google.com/d/msg/pygame-mirror-on- google-groups/rUC5CrroA3U/TzWTWL5cFOUJ There was an approach like this. As the site maintainers didn't like the site, it never got launched, that's why I didn't come up with a solution. Although I might do some prototypical views. > Pygame needs a site where a community can form around and share our works (like right now!), and where new people can understand how to get going and discover Pygame at their speed, using the OS that happens to be in front of them. On that l
Re: [pygame][website] A different approach to a new website
Patrick's idea sounds appealing. There are lots of Python projects with Pygame's size that don't have much more than a wiki on github or docs published on readthedocs.org. Perhaps a lib agnostic, python game hacking community website would be the right thing. Based on what Patrick said, and the problem that Thomas described, the best solution might be to do some combination of the following: 1. Strip the pygame.org website down to a barebones website that just hosts documentation. 2. Build a new python oriented community site as an aggregate of existing technologies 1. Start with something like Drupal or Wordpress 2. Move community discussion to a sub-reddit on reddit.com. ( reddit.com/r/pygame 3. Require projects to be committed to github, bitbucket or similar to be indexed on the community site (no need to host and pay for bandwidth to serve project files) 3. Add appropriate links on the homepage of the new, simplified pygame.org website to redirect to the community portals on reddit and the new community project index website Some benefits you gain from doing this: 1. You alleviate the pygame.org maintainers from doing any further web dev work. 99% of the site is generated when pygame is built and its documentation is generated. 2. Since the pygame.org website no longer aims to own the concept of the pygame community, the pressure from the community to have the ability to change the site is greatly reduced, or entirely eliminated. 3. There will never be a reason for pygame maintainers to respond to a user request for account creation. 4. No additional work would have to be done to build features on the pygame.org or new community website to accommodate user discussion. There already is a pygame subreddit that is moderated and full of user. This is also a more familiar technology for newer users than old-fashioned mailing lists so I would suspect greater adoption. 5. You avoid building a new, from-scratch website that requires heavy development and maintenance. 6. The only features that need to be built on the new site are features that are specific to the community website. This is just a seed for a plan. I'm probably missing some requirements here, but hopefully this spurs more conversation. Regards, Kevin Manire On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:27 PM Thomas Kluyver wrote: > There's a really frustrating disconnect over pygame, and especially the > website: there are lots of people who are clearly have the time and ability > to improve things, but they are not the ones with access to the website. > The people who do have access evidently have very little time to devote to > either working on it themselves, or to facilitate other people working on > it. The domain name does matter - you can launch alternative sites, but as > long as pygame.org exists, we're going to care about what's on it. > > I have been trying to persuade René to publish the code of the existing > website ( > https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/263/make-pygame-website-codes-public > ) so other people can work on it, but so far the only bit available are > some database models, which we can't do much with. I think it's fallen into > the classic trap of "I'll release this when I've cleaned it up", meaning it > never gets released at all. > > I think the new 'hifi' front page is an interesting experiment in novel > site layout, but as things stand I think it is less fit for purpose than > the conventional if antiquated site it replaced. With a lot of thought and > effort, I think it could be the basis of something good, but it seems > unlikely that it will get that reworking in the near future. > > René, if you're reading this: what would it take to connect the website > with the people with time and enthusiasm to work on it? If you're willing > to give me SSH access to the server it's on - or even just send me a > tarball of the directory it runs from now - I'll try to figure out how it > fits together and how we can allow people to make changes. > > Thanks, > Thomas > > On 27 September 2016 at 19:58, Al Sweigart > wrote: > >> It's been a while since I've looked at the state of Pygame, and although >> I'd say Pygame is dying, it's (Monty Python voice) "not dead yet." And I'm >> still not convinced the alternatives are much better than Pygame. >> >> But it really will take a committed person to take the lead on this. >> Unfortunately, without the Pygame name and pygame.org domain behind such >> new leadership, then Pygame will indeed slowly keep sinking. If you fork >> with a new name, it'll end up as just yet another Pygame alternative. >> >> I will say that the old pygame.org site wasn't perfect but is far better >> than the current site. The current site is a huge step backwards in >> usability. >> >> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Patrick Mullen >> wrote: >> >>> Pygame is dead. Still a very capable library, but
