Re: [pygame] New pygame.org website
hi, The download page can be updated with the same admin interface that someone managed to post news with. There's currently 6 users able to edit it... so I guess one of those did it. I added Paul and yourself now as well. See this issue on 'the website needs updates': https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/204/ Updating news, and community management is definitely a role which is useful, and needs to be shared amongst a few people. I'll track the 'make document of admin people' work in that issue. The open issue on the topic of dynamically generating the downloads page: https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/152 This needs a jinja2 template, and a script which iterates over the 'downloads' repo. I'd suggest basing the html on the existing html. Whilst there are better layout options, that would be pretty easy to do for now, and is familiar for existing pygame downloads page users. There are more details to consider of course (like making an actual downloads repo and moving existing files in... and meta data for the files). There's been a couple of efforts to move the wiki into version control. There's even a wiki in the bitbucket version control, and scripts to convert the html into markup formats that bitbucket supports. (there's an issue open on this topic). However, in practice, way less people updated it without a gui (Yes, even markdown and rst is a turn off for quick edits). Pointing them to the bitbucket interface also meant very few edits. I think it was 5-10x less edits. Furthermore even requiring a login means 5-10x less edits (100x if you include the deluge of spam). When those numbers are multiplied together... it meant a tiny amount of wiki edits were happening. Then the bitbucket wiki started getting spammed to hell, but we didn't have tools to moderate it. Along with the edits dropping close to zero, I moved things back to the website wiki. But now there are pretty good web gui tools for markdown. Here's the issue on the wiki topic... but it needs a lot more thought on the topics of spam and ease of use. https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/153/wiki-website-generation-from-wiki-repo Burn out for the website admins, and website defacement because of spam means that a workable solution for spam prevention needs to be in place first for any wiki replacement. Keeping the existing game data for me, and a lot of project authors is very important. For me the main purpose of the website should be to help people making games have a community of makers. Showing your work is often one of the only rewards for making these projects in the first place. Seeing people upload their game to a website for the first time, I always see a grin on their face. On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > On 25 December 2016 at 03:30, René Dudfield wrote: > >> I've been non contactable for a few weeks due to personal issues. Which I >> guess was frustrating to Thomas, which has led to this latest effort to >> make a new website. >> > > I'm glad to see you back; I was a bit worried that something had happened > to you. I hope things are OK. > > Truth be told, the website has been frustrating me for quite a long time, > but your absence really highlighted the need for something that doesn't > depend on a single person maintaining it, and I have seen on the mailing > list that there's a lot of talent and enthusiasm that could be harnessed if > the website was a more collaborative project. > >> >>- most parts of the website can be updated (by wiki, bitbucket, >>stackoverflow, etc) >> >> This is a good point, and I should update the 'Getting Started' page on > the wiki. I cannot, however, see a way to update the all-important Download > page. > >> >>- we need to document who has access to which admin things (there are >>a few people who have access to everything, but I guess not everyone knows >>each other, and some people go inactive some times) >> >> +1. For instance, you mentioned that users jmm0 and TheSheep also have > admin access to Disqus, but those usernames don't obviously relate to > anyone I remember on the mailing list or on Bitbucket, so I'm not sure who > they are or how to contact them. > >> >>- moderation, respect and spam are issues we need to work on. >> >> +1. I hope you don't feel that our efforts to build a replacement site in > your absence were disrespectful :-) > >> Looking forward to moving forward on the new website! >> > How would you like to see the transition happen? Now that you're back we > can presumably make some updates to the current site, which reduces the > pressure to replace it. I'd still like to see things like the download page > generated from files in version control, so that people can update them > through pull requests. My inclination is to move the wiki content into > version control as well. > > For the game feed and the login system, how important do you think it is > to maintain the data from the old si
Re: [pygame] A quick 1.9.3 release
Hi, @Lenard, @Thomas, please let me know your pypi usernames? I fixed the permissions for Paul... so he should be able to also add users on pypi. I'm not sure why that mirror isn't updated... will look into it. I think the 'pygame' organisation on github should be used for the mirror (and other pygame things). One more thing for the 'how to release pygame' document... The website downloads page needs to be updated. It's still pointing people to the 1.9.1 release. It uses the same admin interface as the news. best, On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > On 25 December 2016 at 21:32, René Dudfield wrote: > >> I think we should rotate who does the release... so more people can get >> the hang of it, and so we can better document it as we go. >> > > +1. I see two keys pieces that we need to streamline for this to work: > > 1. PyPI access. At the moment, only you (René) and Paul Craven can upload > releases, and only you can add new people. Please can you add some more > uploaders, e.g. Peter Shinners, Lenard Lindstrom or myself. And can you > give at least one other person the 'owner' role, which allows them to add > other uploaders in the future? > > 2. Github mirroring. You had an automatically updating mirror under your > username, but it stop updating some time ago. I've been manually updating > my own mirror to build the OSX wheels. I'd like to have a mirror under the > new pygame-org Github org I created, and have the automatic updates running > somewhere where multiple people can fix it if it goes wrong. > > >> Any volunteers to be the next release manager? We can guide whoever it is >> through the processes (and document the bits that aren't documented) > > > I'm happy to do it in principle, but I'm checking email quite sporadically > over the next couple of weeks because of Christmas and New Year's > celebrations. So if somebody else can spend more time working on it, it's > probably best for them to do this release. > > Thanks, > Thomas > >
Re: [pygame] A quick 1.9.3 release
A very positive and productive email by Thomas Kluyver. Good things happening in the Python / Pygame world.. after many moons :) On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Thomas Kluyver wrote: > On 25 December 2016 at 21:32, René Dudfield wrote: > >> I think we should rotate who does the release... so more people can get >> the hang of it, and so we can better document it as we go. >> > > +1. I see two keys pieces that we need to streamline for this to work: > > 1. PyPI access. At the moment, only you (René) and Paul Craven can upload > releases, and only you can add new people. Please can you add some more > uploaders, e.g. Peter Shinners, Lenard Lindstrom or myself. And can you > give at least one other person the 'owner' role, which allows them to add > other uploaders in the future? > > 2. Github mirroring. You had an automatically updating mirror under your > username, but it stop updating some time ago. I've been manually updating > my own mirror to build the OSX wheels. I'd like to have a mirror under the > new pygame-org Github org I created, and have the automatic updates running > somewhere where multiple people can fix it if it goes wrong. > > >> Any volunteers to be the next release manager? We can guide whoever it is >> through the processes (and document the bits that aren't documented) > > > I'm happy to do it in principle, but I'm checking email quite sporadically > over the next couple of weeks because of Christmas and New Year's > celebrations. So if somebody else can spend more time working on it, it's > probably best for them to do this release. > > Thanks, > Thomas > > -- Kalasuri Diliup Gabadamudalige https://dahamgatalu.wordpress.com/ http://soft.diliupg.com/ http://www.diliupg.com ** This e-mail is confidential. It may also be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or have received it in error, please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Any unauthorized reading, reproducing, printing or further dissemination of this e-mail or its contents is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely, secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions. **
Re: [pygame] Promoting cheeseshop/pypi for game releases?
My tldr: PyPI and pip are the wrong tools for game distribution, there are better places to focus effort. If the instructions to get your game say 'pip install yourgame', you're limiting your audience to people who have Python installed and are comfortable with the command line. Even among those people, you may find yourself having to explain about using pip3 on some systems, or about why running 'sudo pip ...' is a bad idea. PyPI and pip exist primarily to distribute Python libraries. We use them secondarily to distribute command-line tools, because it's a quick and easy alternative to building packages for different platforms, and the kind of people who use a tool like 'nosetests' know how to install it with pip. They're not a good fit for GUI applications where the user shouldn't need to know that Python is in use. So, where do I think we should focus effort? - Tools to package up Python *applications* into convenient installable bundles - Shameless plug: Pynsist is a tool I made to build Windows installers. - I'd particularly like to see work around the new Linux application packaging formats, Flatpak and Snappy. Can we make a tool that takes some form of description and builds both kinds of package? - The BeeWare projec (http://pybee.org/ ) is doing some interesting work on packaging for mobile platforms. - Stretch goal: can we start with a single application description and build packages for various platforms? I'm sceptical, but it would be cool, even if the packages lacked some polish. - Guides on preparing & submitting games to various app marketplaces: - Platform owners: Microsoft, Apple, Google, Canonical... - Third party: Steam, Itch... - (Maybe) A better catalogue of non-professional games, for creators who may not want to put their games up on Steam or whatever. I'm still unsure if there's an actual gap to be filled here, though, and what shape it is if it exists. Thomas On 25 December 2016 at 00:52, René Dudfield wrote: > Hello, > > tldr; promote using pypi and pip for game releases? > > > With all the great work from lots of people pygame is often easily > installable via pip - the standard python packaging system. We still have > some issues, but it works quite well on major platforms. > > Now our games can be installed with pip too! > > *pip install yourgame* > > Since many people enter the python world via games, it makes sense that > they get used to publishing python packages as well. I've sat in python > groups, and still 75% of the room has never published a python package > despite many of them working with python every day. > > As a game developer why should I use pip? Firstly, there is a very large > audience of people who can install python games. You don't need to worry > about the platform issues of binaries so much. If they have pip on their > platform, then they can install your game. Other benefits of publishing on > pypi include syndication, since many people tweet and copy all the releases > on pypi. Another benefit is all the infrastructure work that goes into > pypi, CDN networks and such. > > I suggest efforts should be applied to: > >- updating tutorials, and spreading the idea of publishing python >games to the cheeseshop (pyweek, pygame.org tutorials, external >tutorials, books, youtube videos) >- base code for a pygame game in a standard structure (skellington, >cookiecutter etc) >- contacting other python game communities to suggest pypi should be a >priority >- making the cheeseshop/pypi itself a better platform for game >publishing needs > > What pypi doesn't do currently? It doesn't do many things that a good game > release system would do. Video/youtube links, and even screenshots aren't > available. Discussion has been disabled (they found it way too hard to > moderate). Even ratings are not on there (which can help for > discover-ability). Another issue is that closed source things aren't really > looked apon nicely there(but it is allowed). Finally, packaging in python > still isn't the easiest thing (it's definitely not as easily as uploading a > zip file, but it is waay nicer now than ever before). > > Any work that goes into making the packaging system for python better for > games helps out with other python game communities as well. We can perhaps > even gain allies from the other communities to help improve things for > games in general. > > Here are where the pypi projects live. > >- https://github.com/pypa >- (current pypi) - https://github.com/pypa/pypi-legacy >- (next gen pypi) - https://github.com/pypa/warehouse > > >
Re: [pygame] New pygame.org website
On 25 December 2016 at 03:30, René Dudfield wrote: > I've been non contactable for a few weeks due to personal issues. Which I > guess was frustrating to Thomas, which has led to this latest effort to > make a new website. > I'm glad to see you back; I was a bit worried that something had happened to you. I hope things are OK. Truth be told, the website has been frustrating me for quite a long time, but your absence really highlighted the need for something that doesn't depend on a single person maintaining it, and I have seen on the mailing list that there's a lot of talent and enthusiasm that could be harnessed if the website was a more collaborative project. > >- most parts of the website can be updated (by wiki, bitbucket, >stackoverflow, etc) > > This is a good point, and I should update the 'Getting Started' page on the wiki. I cannot, however, see a way to update the all-important Download page. > >- we need to document who has access to which admin things (there are >a few people who have access to everything, but I guess not everyone knows >each other, and some people go inactive some times) > > +1. For instance, you mentioned that users jmm0 and TheSheep also have admin access to Disqus, but those usernames don't obviously relate to anyone I remember on the mailing list or on Bitbucket, so I'm not sure who they are or how to contact them. > >- moderation, respect and spam are issues we need to work on. > > +1. I hope you don't feel that our efforts to build a replacement site in your absence were disrespectful :-) > Looking forward to moving forward on the new website! > How would you like to see the transition happen? Now that you're back we can presumably make some updates to the current site, which reduces the pressure to replace it. I'd still like to see things like the download page generated from files in version control, so that people can update them through pull requests. My inclination is to move the wiki content into version control as well. For the game feed and the login system, how important do you think it is to maintain the data from the old site? We could try to build a Python web application around the same database, and then switch over to it. That would be significantly more work than making a new system from scratch, but it means a smoother transition, and preserves the existing archive. Do you want to keep using the current server for dynamic parts of a new site, or move pygame away from it? Thanks, Thomas
Re: [pygame] A quick 1.9.3 release
On 25 December 2016 at 21:32, René Dudfield wrote: > I think we should rotate who does the release... so more people can get > the hang of it, and so we can better document it as we go. > +1. I see two keys pieces that we need to streamline for this to work: 1. PyPI access. At the moment, only you (René) and Paul Craven can upload releases, and only you can add new people. Please can you add some more uploaders, e.g. Peter Shinners, Lenard Lindstrom or myself. And can you give at least one other person the 'owner' role, which allows them to add other uploaders in the future? 2. Github mirroring. You had an automatically updating mirror under your username, but it stop updating some time ago. I've been manually updating my own mirror to build the OSX wheels. I'd like to have a mirror under the new pygame-org Github org I created, and have the automatic updates running somewhere where multiple people can fix it if it goes wrong. > Any volunteers to be the next release manager? We can guide whoever it is > through the processes (and document the bits that aren't documented) I'm happy to do it in principle, but I'm checking email quite sporadically over the next couple of weeks because of Christmas and New Year's celebrations. So if somebody else can spend more time working on it, it's probably best for them to do this release. Thanks, Thomas
