Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
Submitted for everyone's approval, I've written a draft of a pypy tutorial going over everything I learned in writing this example interpreter. https://bitbucket.org/brownan/pypy-tutorial/src See the main document at tutorial.rst https://bitbucket.org/brownan/pypy-tutorial/src/c0bebf4728a5/tutorial.rstI'd love some feedback on it. I've made an effort to keep things accurate yet simple, but if there are any inaccuracies, let me know. Or fork the repo and make the correction yourself =) -Andrew On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Alex Gaynor alex.gay...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Antonio Cuni anto.c...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/03/11 22:05, Andrew Brown wrote: python double-interpreted: 78m (did not finish) pypy-c (with jit) double-interpreted: 41m 34.528s this is interesting. We are beating cpython by more than 2x even in a worst case scenario, because interpreters in theory are not a very good target for tracing JITs. However, it's not the first time that we experience this, so it might be that this interpreter/tracing JIT thing is just a legend :-) Well the issue with tracing an interpreter is the large number of paths, a brainfuck interpreter has relatively few paths compared to something like a Python VM. translated interpreter no jit: 45s translated interpreter jit: 7.5s translated direct to C, gcc -O0 translate: 0.2s compile: 0.4s run: 18.5s translated direct to C, gcc -O1 translate: 0.2s compile: 0.85s run: 1.28s translated direct to C, gcc -O2 translate: 0.2s compile: 2.0s run: 1.34s these are cool as well. We are 3x faster than gcc -O0 and ~3x slower than -O1 and -O2. Pretty good, I'd say :-) ciao, anto ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev Alex -- I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire) The people's good is the highest law. -- Cicero ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On 04/04/2011 04:12 PM, Andrew Brown wrote: Submitted for everyone's approval, I've written a draft of a pypy tutorial going over everything I learned in writing this example interpreter. https://bitbucket.org/brownan/pypy-tutorial/src See the main document at tutorial.rst https://bitbucket.org/brownan/pypy-tutorial/src/c0bebf4728a5/tutorial.rstI'd love some feedback on it. I've made an effort to keep things accurate yet simple, but if there are any inaccuracies, let me know. Or fork the repo and make the correction yourself =) Looks very nice! Would you be up to making a guest post out of this on the PyPy blog? Carl Friedrich ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Carl Friedrich Bolz cfb...@gmx.de wrote: Looks very nice! Would you be up to making a guest post out of this on the PyPy blog? Sure! What needs to be done to turn it into a blog post and get it posted? I assume there are format considerations, but I'm also open to any content suggestions and feedback before it goes live. -Andrew ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On 04/04/2011 05:43 PM, Andrew Brown wrote: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Carl Friedrich Bolz cfb...@gmx.de mailto:cfb...@gmx.de wrote: Looks very nice! Would you be up to making a guest post out of this on the PyPy blog? Sure! What needs to be done to turn it into a blog post and get it posted? I assume there are format considerations, but I'm also open to any content suggestions and feedback before it goes live. I looked again, added two places that could use small fixes. And I updated two links, see my merge request. Apart from that, the blog post would not need many changes. It would need an introductionary line like: This is a guest post by Andrew Brown. It's a tutorial for how to write an interpreter with PyPy, generating a JIT. It is suitable for beginners and assumes very little knowledge of PyPy. Then we should link to the repo, and replace all file links with links to bitbucket. I can do all that, and post it (tomorrow), if you are fine with that. Carl Friedrich ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On 04/04/11 17:43, Andrew Brown wrote: Sure! What needs to be done to turn it into a blog post and get it posted? I assume there are format considerations, but I'm also open to any content suggestions and feedback before it goes live. Hello Andrew, thanks for the tutorial, it's really well written and easy to read. Two notes: 1) do you know about the existence of rlib.streamio? It's is part of the RPython standard library and it allows you to read/write files in a higher level way than file descriptors 2) Maybe the tutorial is a bit too long to fit in just one post; what about splitting it into two parts? (e.g., one until Adding JIT and one after). ciao, Anto ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
Thanks for the feedback. I'll clarify those parts, and I have a few touch-ups of my own. Also, I think I forgot to add my name =) I'm fine with you posting it as you described. An into line like that was just what I had in mind. I'd wait until tomorrow though to see if any other feedback surfaces. On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Carl Friedrich Bolz cfb...@gmx.de wrote: On 04/04/2011 05:43 PM, Andrew Brown wrote: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Carl Friedrich Bolz cfb...@gmx.de mailto:cfb...@gmx.de wrote: Looks very nice! Would you be up to making a guest post out of this on the PyPy blog? Sure! What needs to be done to turn it into a blog post and get it posted? I assume there are format considerations, but I'm also open to any content suggestions and feedback before it goes live. I looked again, added two places that could use small fixes. And I updated two links, see my merge request. Apart from that, the blog post would not need many changes. It would need an introductionary line like: This is a guest post by Andrew Brown. It's a tutorial for how to write an interpreter with PyPy, generating a JIT. It is suitable for beginners and assumes very little knowledge of PyPy. Then we should link to the repo, and replace all file links with links to bitbucket. I can do all that, and post it (tomorrow), if you are fine with that. Carl Friedrich ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Antonio Cuni anto.c...@gmail.com wrote: 1) do you know about the existence of rlib.streamio? It's is part of the RPython standard library and it allows you to read/write files in a higher level way than file descriptors No, I didn't. That's good to know. I don't think it's worth updating the examples though, so unless you disagree, I'll just add a note about this module's existence. 2) Maybe the tutorial is a bit too long to fit in just one post; what about splitting it into two parts? (e.g., one until Adding JIT and one after). Yes, it is quite long. Carl, feel free to break it up as necessary when you post it. Breaking it up at the Adding JIT section seems ideal, since both parts are useful on their own. -Andrew ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On 04/04/11 19:46, Andrew Brown wrote: 1) do you know about the existence of rlib.streamio? It's is part of the RPython standard library and it allows you to read/write files in a higher level way than file descriptors No, I didn't. That's good to know. I don't think it's worth updating the examples though, so unless you disagree, I'll just add a note about this module's existence. sure, I think that for this example, using fd is fine. Btw, in case you want to do more with pypy, having a look to rlib might be a good idea, there is useful stuff there :) ciao, Anto ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Antonio Cuni anto.c...@gmail.com wrote: sure, I think that for this example, using fd is fine. Btw, in case you want to do more with pypy, having a look to rlib might be a good idea, there is useful stuff there :) Definitely. In any case, I've made some changes, re-worded some things. Carl, I've addressed your suggestions, let me know what you think. I also re-worded a few things in the Adding JIT section to make it flow a bit better assuming it will be split up. It may still need some editing though. -Andrew ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] A Little Bit of Python Episode 17
An interview with Armin, recorded at the Leysin sprint: http://advocacy.python.org/podcasts/littlebit/2011-04-04.mp3 It turned out pretty well I think. All the best, Michael Foord -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] PyPy in the benchmarks game - yes or no?
Hi A simple yes / no question. Do you want PyPy to be shown in the benchmarks game or not? Please consider the question amongst yourselves and then let me know. Of course, I'll make up my own mind but at least I'll be able to take your wishes into account. best wishes, Isaac ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy in the benchmarks game - yes or no?
On 4 April 2011 17:23, Isaac Gouy igo...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi A simple yes / no question. Do you want PyPy to be shown in the benchmarks game or not? Please consider the question amongst yourselves and then let me know. Of course, I'll make up my own mind but at least I'll be able to take your wishes into account. best wishes, Isaac ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev I think it ought to be included, although I have big reservation about some of the benchmarks. Some work and/or discussion on benchmarks would be in order. my 2c. d. ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] minimum system requirements, build configuration
Hi - I've been looking at pypy as a possible application runtime in an ARM9 Linux based system. I understand that the in-progress ARM jit backend targets only ARMv7, but I'm still interested in characterizing a translated pypy-c interpreter on this system with regard to CPU and memory usage. Of course I look forward to possible ARMv5 support for the jit in the future, but if I've understood correctly, fully interpreted mode should be supported - please let me know if this is not correct! To that end, are there minimum recommended system requirements for pypy, specifically in terms of memory? As a reference, something like the Mono 'Small Footprint' wiki page applied to pypy would be what I'm looking for: http://www.mono-project.com/Small_footprint On a related note, most of the build config info I've come across seems to revolve around a scratchbox2 build environment targeting maemo - indeed it seems to be the main other 'platform' option in the pypy build script, other than 'host'. Is there any particularly tight coupling between maemo and pypy, or should I hope to be able to set up a generic sbox2 environment for my target and come away with a working build? Are there any other docs or config snippets that detail how to set up a generic cross compile environment for pypy? Thanks for any tips or relevant info! Liam ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy in the benchmarks game - yes or no?
On 5 April 2011 10:23, Isaac Gouy igo...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi A simple yes / no question. Do you want PyPy to be shown in the benchmarks game or not? Please consider the question amongst yourselves and then let me know. There seems to have been general confusion here about what the implementations of these benchmarks are supposed to represent. Are they to be representative of idiomatic code, or optimised for a particular implementation? Or something else entirely? Since pypy have generally tried to optimise for and encourage idiomatic python usage, those benchmark implementations that go to great length to use confusing and non-standard performance hacks represent neither the performance of real-world code, nor what one can do with a specific implementation. If the answer is that they are going to be tuned to a particular implementation and that implementation is not going to be ours, we probably *could* live with that: realistically, the sort of code people are applying pypy to occasionally contains performance hacks that are no longer relevant and possibly detrimental. But it does seem to change the meaning of the benchmark, and it would be useful to get some authoritative clarification on this before we consider it. -- William Leslie ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
