[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Mark Roseman]

Mark Roseman added the comment:

Ned, is there anything that I might be able to help with here? While I'm not a 
Mac installer guru, it doesn't look like we'd need anything too fancy here.

Installing an 8.6 variant (via the frameworks approach I mentioned in my 
previous message) would seem to have a less likely chance of stomping on things 
than previously, and hopefully shorten the time we have to live with 8.4 and 
buggy 8.5 releases.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Mark Roseman]

Mark Roseman added the comment:

I'd like to revisit this, particularly in the context of some of the 
discussions regarding future improvements of IDLE.

Assume we have a barebones Tcl/Tk framework build of e.g. 8.6.4 as part of the 
installer (core Tcl/Tk, not like e.g. ActiveTcl).

Would something like this work?

1. if just system Tcl/Tk already installed (/System/Library/Frameworks), 
install new /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework and 
/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework

2. if /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework is installed, but doesn't have 8.6.x 
(e.g. may have Versions/8.4), add the new version into the existing framework, 
so we'd then have a 8.4.x and a 8.6.4 installed

3. if there's already /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6 and it's a 
lower version (e.g. 8.6.1) we could simply nag them in the installer to 
consider upgrading on their own (the theory being that if they've installed it 
once somehow they can most likely do it again with a newer version of whatever 
they have)

This way if there's any existing Tcl/Tk there that other things are linking 
against, it shouldn't get disturbed. Possible, or just wishful thinking?

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Kurt B. Kaiser]

Changes by Kurt B. Kaiser k...@shore.net:


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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset d666e8ee687d by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue #15663: Revert OS X installer built-in Tcl/Tk support for 3.4.0b1.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/d666e8ee687d

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset f9927dcc85cf by Ned Deily in branch '3.3':
Issue #15663: Revert OS X installer built-in Tcl/Tk support for 3.3.3.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/f9927dcc85cf

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset fc8f19b4b662 by Ned Deily in branch '2.7':
Issue #15663: Revert OS X installer built-in Tcl/Tk support for 2.7.6.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/fc8f19b4b662

New changeset 268dc81c2527 by Ned Deily in branch '3.3':
Issue #15663: Revert OS X installer built-in Tcl/Tk support for 3.3.3.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/268dc81c2527

New changeset f89beccd470c by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue #15663: merge build-installer.py changes
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/f89beccd470c

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ned Deily]

Ned Deily added the comment:

Due to incompatibilities with some key third-party projects as documented in 
Issue 19490 and the urgency of getting new maintenance releases out, the best 
course of action is to revert built-in Tcl/Tk support for 3.3.3 and 2.7.6.  
With the knowledge gained, I will try to implement a compatible solution for 
3.4.0b1.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ronald Oussoren]

Ronald Oussoren added the comment:

I don't think you can provide a solution that's compatible with existing 
3th-party extensions that use Tk and includes a private copy of Tcl/Tk. 

IMHO the best solution would be to provide the Tcl/Tk headers in the Python 
framework as well, to make it possible to link 3th party extension with the Tk 
that's provided with the Python installer.  

That should be an acceptable solution for 3.4 because that's a new feature 
release. 

A possible pain-point are 3th-party extensions that use the limited ABI, link 
with Tk and are used with Tkinter.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset ba31940588b6 by Ned Deily in branch '2.7':
Issue #15663: Revert OS X installer built-in Tcl/Tk support for 2.7.6.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/ba31940588b6

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset db5a50959dc9 by Ned Deily in branch '2.7':
Issue #15663: OS X installer builtin Tcl/Tk support
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/db5a50959dc9

New changeset 150242784de0 by Ned Deily in branch '3.3':
Issue #15663: OS X installer builtin Tcl/Tk support
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/150242784de0

New changeset b599584ff1e3 by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue #15663: OS X installer builtin Tcl/Tk support
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/b599584ff1e3

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset 0bf4cf62f14c by Ned Deily in branch '3.3':
Issue #15663: Force IDLE.app to run the GUI process in 32-bit mode.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/0bf4cf62f14c

New changeset b6a1a78818fe by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue Issue #15663: merge from 3.3
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/b6a1a78818fe

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset 19b512bfc8d2 by Ned Deily in branch '2.7':
Issue #15663: Tcl/Tk 8.5.15 is now included with the OS X 10.6+
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/19b512bfc8d2

New changeset 5ff4f0100a40 by Ned Deily in branch '3.3':
Issue #15663: Tcl/Tk 8.5.15 is now included with the OS X 10.6+
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/5ff4f0100a40

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Georg Brandl]

Georg Brandl added the comment:

Yep (should there be a policy about this somewhere)?

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger added the comment:

We should advertise in the docs that we have a policy of upgrading the Tcl/Tk 
versions as necessary to improve stability.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ned Deily]

Ned Deily added the comment:

I guess the one remaining question about this issue is whether it should be 
backported to 2.7.x and/or 3.3.x. The implementation depends on the build 
changes implemented in Issue1584 to provide options to override default search 
paths for Tcl and Tk so that would have to be back ported as well.  IMO, the 
entire set of changes are fairly well isolated and should be low risk: 
basically, they are all build-related changes and mostly isolated to OS X.  The 
primary argument for backporting is that Tk support on current releases of OS X 
(from 10.6 Snow Leopard on) has been a major pain for our users, such that we 
have to keep recommending that they install a newer third-party Tcl/Tk to use 
IDLE or anything else Tkinter-based.  So that goes against the 
batteries-included mission of the python.org installer, especially since the 
third-party version (ActiveTcl) is not totally free and open source (although 
it is free as in beer for most uses).  On the other hand, one can argue that 
this is a 
 new feature and thus prohibited in maintenance releases.  On the other other 
hand, one can argue that this is a change driven by changes (or lack thereof) 
in the underlying OS platform and *essentially* only changes the building of 
the python.org OS X installer, so it is similar in concept to any other 
third-party distributor of Python changing an underlying system library.  I 
would be OK with backporting or not but the decision needs to be made by the 
release managers.  Benjamin?  Georg?

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Benjamin Peterson]

Benjamin Peterson added the comment:

We've upgraded the versions of other embedded libraries in 2.7 bugfix releases, 
so I'm okay with this for 2.7.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset 7f69f4fadfd8 by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue #15663: Update OS X installer to use Tcl/Tk 8.5.15.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/7f69f4fadfd8

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Roundup Robot]

Roundup Robot added the comment:

New changeset 985384cd6365 by Ned Deily in branch 'default':
Issue #15663: Tcl/Tk 8.5.14 is now included with the OS X 10.6+
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/985384cd6365

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ned Deily]

Changes by Ned Deily n...@acm.org:


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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ronald Oussoren]

Ronald Oussoren added the comment:

Great work. Thanks.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Samuel John]

Samuel John added the comment:

Sounds reasonable, but please put the libs not in a place that might conflict 
with a Tk installed by other means (e.g. homebrew's Tk is a `/usr/local`).

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ed Campbell]

Changes by Ed Campbell drescampb...@gmail.com:


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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ronald Oussoren]

Ronald Oussoren added the comment:

The logical location for installing and embedded Tcl/Tk is either in 
{sys.prefix}/lib (for a unix install of Tk) or in 
Python.framework/Versions/X.Y/Frameworks (for a Tcl/Tk framework install).

In either case Tcl/Tk would be installed *inside* Python.framework and hence 
couldn't conflict with other installations of Tcl/Tk (system, activate-state, 
homebrew, ...).

Note that this would also make it harder for end users to upgrade Tcl/Tk, 
currently they can use the ActiveState installer to install a better Tk release 
and that would no longer be necessary.

That would be a small cost relative to the large gain of having a working Tk 
release.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ned Deily]

New submission from Ned Deily:

The current situation with Tcl/Tk on OS X is less than ideal.  The 
Apple-supplied versions of the Cocoa-based Aqua Tk 8.5 on 10.6 was unusable 
with IDLE and most Tkinter applications.  The 10.7 and 10.8 versions are better 
but still have serious crashers that have been more recently fixed.  python.org 
installers currently also support using ActiveTcl release but that is also not 
ideal as there are license restrictions for some users and a separate download 
and install is required.  We should be able to provide a better out-of-the-box 
experience if python.org installers included its own copies of up-to-date 
Tcl/Tk libraries (as is the case with the Windows installers).  It would be 
good to still give users the option to use ActiveTcl for any of its additional 
features or to use system Python.  Also we could also look at providing Tcl/Tk 
8.5 for 10.5 users (possibly only Intel ones) which we currently do not.

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assignee: ned.deily
components: Build, Installation, Macintosh
messages: 168269
nosy: ned.deily, ronaldoussoren
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.4

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ronald Oussoren]

Ronald Oussoren added the comment:

A major reason for why the current installers don't install Tk as well is that 
this would significantly increase the size of the installer.

There's also the question of what bits of Tcl/Tk should be bundled, although I 
guess we should ship a minimal install of Tk that still supports everything 
that is wrapped by the python std lib. Alternatively we could ship the same 
subset as the Windows installer.

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[issue15663] Investigate providing Tcl/Tk 8.5 with OS X installers

[Ned Deily]

Ned Deily added the comment:

Yes, it would have to be a subset since some of the stuff in the ActiveTcl 
releases is unavailable anyway. But the current ActiveTcl installer dmgs are 
around 24Mb while the 3.3.0 installers are a little less than 20Mb.  Even if it 
were to double the size, 40Mb still seems pretty small by today's standards.  
And following the Windows installer lead would be a good starting point.

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