[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

Thanks.  This is helpful and got me started thinking.

I don't want to duplicate the reference doc too much, but a reference is just 
that, a reference.  The menu items are discussed in the order they appear, not 
the order a beginner might use the most common ones.

Judging from Stackoverflow questions, covering platform specifics is needed.  
People seem to miss the following: Python runs IDLE; IDLE hands user code to 
Python to execute.  Output and error messages come from Python, not IDLE.  If 
you want python to import 3rd party modules, one must install the module for 
the Python used to run IDLE.  (I have answered at least 3 variations of this 
question.) Anyway, I realize that I have a source of frequent beginner 
questions and problems.  If we have answers in a How-To, I can quote and 
suggest that people read it.

Amit, do you wish to continue with this?

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Cheryl Sabella]

Cheryl Sabella added the comment:

I think it's a good start, but may need some tweaking.  For example, the
Menu options should probably somehow stand out from the rest of the text.

I think it would be useful for a beginner, depending on how much of a
beginner they are and how they got to this page.  For example, if I wanted
to learn Python and had no prior programming experience, most likely I
would google 'learn python' (or maybe even just 'learn to program') and
check out those links.  Some results, like the Tutorial in the python.org
docs, focus on getting Python installed and using the interactive
interpreter.  There doesn't seem to be anything in the python.org docs
(except for the FAQ) that suggest using IDLE.  Although, the FAQ might be
one of the first places a beginner would look, so maybe a link from there
to the HOWTO would be helpful.  I think showing how to install IDLE and use
it is important, and that alone would make this page useful.  The current
IDLE doc page has the command line usage in the middle of the page, but
doesn't really just answer how do I install it and how do I run it?

So, assuming a beginner is following some tutorial, they get to a point
where they need an editor.  Following the instructions for installing any
program can be tricky.  Heck, even installing Python might have been
tricky, so good for them if they got this far.  But, without any
instructions for getting IDLE to run, they are left to googling for it.  It
would be great for the python docs can have a step by step installation
instruction and even troubleshooting.  Then, as this HOWTO does, explain
what opens up and how to use the editor, etc.  As I've recently experienced
with git, I find it frustrating to spend half a day trying to get something
to work when it should be easy.  This page could be a one page
introduction/reference so that someone doesn't have to cobble together
answers from all over the internet to questions they didn't even know to
ask.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

Cheryl, what do you think of the revised patch?  I imagine it needs some 
updating for *nix, but does it seem useful to a beginner?

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Al Sweigart]

Changes by Al Sweigart asweig...@gmail.com:


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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

(If someone else wants to take this before I get to it, feel free. But there 
seems to be enough support to add something eventually.)

It seems that Rietveld is able to ignore the binaries, but in the future, lets 
separate the text and images. If nothing else, the images should stay the same 
while the text gets updated patches.

Looking at http://docs.python.org/3/howto/index.html, I think the title should 
begin with Idle or IDLE, but if the latter, not include HOWTO as one SHOUT is 
enough. I think it should be in its alphabetical position after Functional 
Programming. I have no idea why argparse and ipaddress are out of order.

I think there should be a section on using the shell before using the editor.

From a command line (at least on Windows, when not in the directory containing 
idle.py) 'python -m idlelib' is the easiest way to start. Within a Python 
program, 'import idlelib.idle' starts it. I plan to add a new section to the 
docs for this, but it might be worth repeating.

I will look more closely at the text another time.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Hello, I just wanted to check if I should attach the image files separately and 
submit the text as a diff? 

Thanks.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

I have tried to incorporate most of the suggestions and made some other changes 
as well. Hope it looks better now.

I haven't yet split it into two separate versions.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Éric Araujo]

Éric Araujo added the comment:

This is a great idea, thank you.

FYI You can share text and images with a diff file: if you call “hg add 
path/to/images” and create the diff with the --git option, it will use an 
extended unified diff format which includes binary changes.  Our review system 
is not compatible with that format though, so you can simply attach the files 
here.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Hello Éric Araujo, thanks. Oh I thought it did support, and hence I created the 
diff in exactly the way you mention.

i also went ahead and tested it by 'hg import' -ing it into a cpython clone and 
i was all excited to see all my images there :-)

But, yeah I can certainly attach the images separately.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Ezio Melotti]

Ezio Melotti added the comment:

I added a few more comments.

To clarify, when I said two documents, I meant that there will be only a single 
HOWTO, but on 2.7 it will be specific to Python 2, whereas on 3.x it will be 
specific to Python 3.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Thanks Ezio. I am almost done with incorporating the changes suggested and will 
submit a patch sometime in the next day or so.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

Sorry about using the wrong word, I should of used HowTo not FAQ.  I really 
meant to suggest replacing guide with the word HowTo.  A HowTo would be 
perfect  Sorry about the confusion.  Thanks again.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Hi Todd, 

I just signed the Python contributor agreement electronically.

You probably missed the link to the rSt source in my original report. Here it 
is [1]. I would want this HOWTO to cover all aspects of IDLE from an user's 
perspective. 

I have some ideas about what to add, but I would like to hear from you as well.

Thanks.

[1] http://amitsaha.github.com/site/notes/_sources/articles/idle/article.txt

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

Yes I missed the link sorry.  Can you add the rst file to Doc/faq in the tip of 
the repository then do a hg diff and post the patch as an attachment to this 
issue?  At that point I will review and send any changes or edits with the 
review system.  Others can suggest changes as well.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Adding the patch here. I am not sure about how to add the screenshots, so I 
haven't done them. 

Just attached the document as a patch (note that I have placed in doc/howto).

Thanks for the comments.

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Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file29641/idle.patch

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Ezio Melotti]

Changes by Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com:


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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Ezio Melotti]

Ezio Melotti added the comment:

I left a few comments on rietveld.
I wonder if it's better to make two separate versions, one for py2 and one for 
py3, and avoid repeating things (like the name of the packages) twice.

You should also be able to include the images in the patch by using hg add 
locally.  This should include them when you do hg diff  idle.patch (if it 
doesn't work you might have to set git = on (see 
http://docs.python.org/devguide/committing.html#minimal-configuration)).

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Hi Ezio, thanks for your review comments. 

I will make the changes to the document, and also add the images in a later 
patch.

I do agree that repeating package names for Python 2 and Python 3 is perhaps 
not an ideal way. I am also trying to think of other ways to justify having two 
separate documents: may be the code samples? print 'Hello world' versus 
print('Hello World') ?

Thanks.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

Ezio,
   I left a few comments on rietveld.  This is a really nice start to a great 
FAQ.  Thanks for your contribution I think Python needs a nice FAQ on IDLE.  
You might want to add some detail about the right click menu which allows a 
user to cut, copy, paste, and set breakpoints.  I think a section on the 
debugger would be excellent.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

Amit Saha added the comment:

Hi Todd, thanks for your comments. I wanted to clarify that I intend to make 
this a HOWTO, not a FAQ.

I hope that's fine?

-Amit.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Amit Saha]

New submission from Amit Saha:

I would like to propose a new HOWTO discussing IDLE from a user's perspective. 
I feel that the current documentation at 
http://docs.python.org/3/library/idle.html is not sufficient to be pointed to a 
newbie programmer or someone who wants to teach his/her students to IDLE. For 
example, being an experienced person myself, I didn't know how to start IDLE on 
Linux! Whether it was a separate package, or whether it was already installed 
(That may be my own shortcoming, but never the less).

I started a document this morning which can be seen here [1]. The source is 
here[2]

[1] http://amitsaha.github.com/site/notes/articles/idle/article.html
[2] http://amitsaha.github.com/site/notes/_sources/articles/idle/article.txt

I am putting up my hand to write the HOWTO and maintain it for 2.7 and 3.3+. 

Comments?

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title: IDLE HOWTO
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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

I think it is a great idea.

The Python documentation is written with restructured text.  See the Python 
Developer's Guide here:
http://docs.python.org/devguide/documenting.html

Restructured text is not difficult please let me know if you need help I would 
be glad to assist.

What you have is a good start but it will have to be reformatted then submitted 
as a patch so it can be committed.  In addition you have to complete a Python 
Contributor Agreement.  Please spend a little time looking over the Python 
Developer's Guide.  Thanks.

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[issue17583] IDLE HOWTO

[Roger Serwy]

Roger Serwy added the comment:

I agree that improving IDLE's docs would make it easier to learn and use. There 
is a tangentially related issue: #16893.

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