[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

Al did post to python-ideas, with a link to a prototype.  I think a fair 
summary is that core-developers had at least the same reluctance to be involve 
with code translations as with doc translations.  We rejected doing the latter 
as part of cpython by pydev.  I am doing the same with respect to this specific 
implementation.

Looking at the prototype, I agreed with Al hard-coding translations is a 
"terrible way for a software module to implement internationalization,".  For 
one thing, mixing multiple languages does not scale.

On python-ideas, I urged Al to make this a pypi project.  I give below a 
different path that would also be mostly independent of cpython and this 
tracker.

The March 2017 pydev decision with respect to document translations, as 
described in the PEP, was that they should be a separate project with a 
separate team, team leaders, contributor agreement, infrastructure, and 
procedures. The pydev/cpython contribution was limited adding the language 
selection box and whatever html is needed to grab a translation.

Code translations should be handled the same way. One of the common issues, for 
instance, is trust.  Core developers are in no position to check that 
translations are not, for instance, 'adults-only'. The translation project 
leaders have worked out whatever procedure they have for vetting translators 
and translations.  For one thing, I believe they usually have more than one 
person per language team.

According to the PEP,  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/doc-sig
is used for discussion of document translations.  When I feel like revisiting 
the issue of translating IDLE's menus, I will discuss it with them.

I think anyone interested in turtle command translations should do the same.  
When there is something to hook to and therefore a need to modify turtle, a new 
issue can be opened.

--
resolution:  -> rejected
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Carol Willing]

Carol Willing  added the comment:

A good next step with this issue would be to look at the languages mentioned in 
the devguide experts page 
(https://devguide.python.org/experts/#documentation-translations) with people 
interested in translations

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nosy: +willingc

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

> discussion elsewhere
#24978, translate docs to Russian

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nosy: +terry.reedy

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

There is a discussion elsewhere about whether it is time to start formalizing 
translation efforts for the python docs (Sphinx supports it).  Unfortunately I 
don't remember where I saw it (probably another issue in the tracker.

I can see your argument about turtle being special in this regard.  There's no 
guarantee a patch would be accepted, though, so before you do much work on it 
I'd recommend posting to python-ideas about it.

Regardless of that, it would be a new feature and so can only go into 3.6, 
unless you can get some consensus for this being another exception to that rule 
like Idle is :)

--
nosy: +gregorlingl, r.david.murray
versions: +Python 3.6 -Python 2.7, Python 3.2, Python 3.3, Python 3.4, Python 
3.5

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Al Sweigart]

Al Sweigart added the comment:

Good idea. I'll bring it up on the python-ideas list.

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Al Sweigart]

Al Sweigart added the comment:

I volunteer to produce the patch.

I know Bryson's "Teach Your Kids to Code" book (which features Python's turtle 
module) hasn't been translated to other languages yet. It would be nice to get 
this committed sooner rather than later. I'm open to ideas for expanding 
documentation of turtle to other languages.

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[issue24990] Foreign language support in turtle module

[Al Sweigart]

New submission from Al Sweigart:

I'd like to propose adding foreign language names for the names in the turtle 
module. This would effectively take this code:

import turtle
t = turtle.Pen()
t.pencolor('green')
t.forward(100)

...and have this code in French be completely equivalent:

import turtle
t = turtle.Plume()
t.couleurplume('vert')
t.avant(100)

(Pardon my google-translate French.)

This would be built into the turtle module (the "turtle" name itself would be 
unchanged). They would be available no matter what the OS's localization 
settings were set to.

This, of course, is terrible way for a software module to implement 
internationalization, which usually does not apply to the source code names 
itself. But I'd like to explain why the turtle module is different.

The turtle module is not used for professional software development, but 
instead as a teaching tool for children. While professional developers are 
expected to obtain proficiency with English, the same does not apply to school 
kids who are just taking a small computer programming unit. Having the turtle 
module available in their native language would remove a large barrier and let 
them focus on the core programming concepts that turtle provides.

The popular Scratch tool has a similar internationalized setup and also has 
LOGO-style commands, so the translation work is already done.

Technically, it would be possible to mix multiple natural languages in the same 
program. This would be a bad practice, but I also don't see it as a common one.

The color strings (e.g. 'green') are tk-dependent, but this can be worked 
around in the turtle module without requiring changes to tk.

--
components: Library (Lib)
messages: 249586
nosy: Al.Sweigart
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Foreign language support in turtle module
type: enhancement
versions: Python 2.7, Python 3.2, Python 3.3, Python 3.4, Python 3.5

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