[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

I close the issue. Thanks for the constructive discussion and I hope that more 
and more downstream patches will be merged in Python upstream ;-)

--
resolution:  -> not a bug
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

Gaige B Paulsen offered to set up a SmartOS (Illumos-derived) buildbot:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-buildb...@python.org/thread/7HGPHD3WZG6V6NVP6EGQO6NHZ3DAPPXN/

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

This issue title is "Drop Solaris support". I no longer plan to drop Solaris 
support. I suggest to open new issues and continue the discussion there.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

Copy of my email sent to python-dev.

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/message/46UUJ4J5YLCWF2JQMC5L7OIYG6PNQLRL/

Since I created the issue and the PR, and sent this email to
python-dev (one week ago), many Solaris and Solaris-like (ex: Illumos)
users replied that the operating system is definitively alive. I
didn't know that Oracle still ships new Solaris updates every month:
that's a good thing!

But this is not enough to support a platform. We would need proactive
contributors to fix known Solaris issues, but also fix new Solaris
issues (either regressions, or bugs newly discovered). We would also
need a buildbot to run the Python test suite on Solaris (or again, a
Solaris-like OS).

The good news is that Jakub Kulik started to fix some Solaris issues.
I understood that Solaris and Solaris-like operating systems do have
downstream patches on Python to fix a bunch of bugs. It seems like
some people want to push these fixes to Python upstream which is also
a good sign.

The other problem that I wanted to discuss is that fixing Solaris
issues require core devs (who merge PRs) accessing Solaris. If
contributors send patches and some core devs are fine with merging
fixes without being able to test them manually, I'm also fine with
that.

My first intent was to remove support for a definitely dead operating
system, but it seems like I was completely wrong (it's alive!). Thanks
to people starting to fix Solaris issues, I close my PR and I no
longer plan to drop Solaris support. I prefer to leave bpo-42173 open
for now, since people decide to use it as a place to collaborate on
fixing Solaris issues.

Once most tests will pass on the master branch, I also hope that
someone will set up a buildbot *and* fix issues discovered by this
buildbot. Sorry but just setting up a buildbot doesn't solve any
problem, it only increases the maintenance burden for people who
maintain the buildbot fleet. For example, we have two AIX buildbots, I
report bugs on bugs.python.org, but it seems like nobody is available
to fix them...

Overall, I'm quite happy with what is happening with Solaris! More
collaboration, issues being fixed in Python upstream. I just hope that
this work will continue next months. ;-)

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jakub Stasiak]

Change by Jakub Stasiak :


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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

Victor, are you going to close the PR?

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

People interested in helping Solaris issues should see my post above, msg380006.

Issue #35455, about thread time on Solaris, with a simple but non-trivial 
patch, was just closed as fixed after reviews from 2 coredevs and a 3rd person.

I presume Victor will close his proposed PR when there is a buildbot and 
additional action on issues.  We have gotten new information that supports 
doing so.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Gordon Ross]

Gordon Ross  added the comment:

I can understand the frustrations around dealing with minority platforms, but 
please remember that the illumos project (www.illumos.org) is basically the 
inheritor of problems around "Build on Solaris" for 3rd party software like 
Python.  There are several OS distributions based on illumos that would be 
impacted by removing the ability to (easily) build Python. I'm confident we can 
find some people to help maintain build-bots etc. if that's what it takes.  If 
you're still looking for such help, let me know and I'll ask on 
develop...@list.illumos.org for volunteers.

Thanks!  -GWR

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jakub Kulik]

Jakub Kulik  added the comment:

Thanks Andy, good to know we are seeing the same issue!

We tried to fix sendfile differences in Python code before as well, but as you 
said, it was never 100% solved. Recently we finally fixed it in C and it was 
accepted (https://bugs.python.org/issue41687) and backported to 3.9 so you 
might/should be ok without the patch as well.

CLOCK_THREAD_CPUTIME_ID was issue for us as well but before the patch was 
accepted upstream, Oracle Solaris implemented it so it was no longer necessary. 
But the issue is still open https://bugs.python.org/issue35455 and knowing that 
others will use it, I will dust it off and finish it.

Knowing that Oracle and Illumos are facing the same issues, I am much more 
confident that our patches won't break Illumos. I will start upstream more of 
them right away.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Andy Fiddaman]

Andy Fiddaman  added the comment:

Jakub's results looks very familiar to me, having been working on python 3.9 on 
illumos.

For OmniOS, we currently skip these tests via --ignorefile:

# wchar_t related failures
*.test_re.ReTests.test_locale_compiled
*.test_re.ReTests.test_locale_caching
# illumos does not support multiple SCM_RIGHTS messages in a packet
*FDPassSeparate*
# These tests fail on illumos and the first consumes a significant
# amount of memory. Investigation required.
test.test_socket.SendfileUsingSendfileTest.testCount
test.test_socket.SendfileUsingSendfileTest.testWithTimeout
test.test_socket.SendfileUsingSendfileTest.testOffset
#
test.test_asyncio.test_sendfile.*
test.test_asyncio.test_subprocess.SubprocessMultiLoopWatcherTests.*


We are also carrying some local patches for the following. Several come from 
Solaris.

- Stop python detecting and using epoll() on illumos

- scheduling priorities can be < 0
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/mod-posix-sched_priority.patch

- differences in sendfile behaviour (improves the situation but is not complete)
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/mod-posix-sendfile.patch

- Enable sendfile for shutil.copy (mismatch between library and testsuite in 
terms of whether sendfile() is enabled on illumos)
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/mod-shutil-sendfile.patch

- Fixes for building the socket module (_XOPEN_SOURCE=600)
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/mod-socket-xpg6.patch

- Emulate clock_gettime(CLOCK_THREAD_CPUTIME_ID)
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/mod-time-threadtime.patch

- PTY patch
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/blob/python39/build/python39/patches/pty.patch

and a few others, not all of which are suitable for upstream.
https://github.com/citrus-it/omnios-build/tree/python39/build/python39/patches


With all of this in place, the headline test stats for OmniOS Python 3.9 are:

401 tests OK.

24 tests skipped:
test_dbm_gnu test_epoll test_gdb test_idle test_kqueue test_msilib
test_ossaudiodev test_smtpnet test_socketserver test_startfile
test_tcl test_timeout test_tix test_tk test_ttk_guionly
test_ttk_textonly test_turtle test_urllib2net test_urllibnet
test_winconsoleio test_winreg test_winsound test_xmlrpc_net
test_zipfile64

Tests result: SUCCESS

and, additionally, the dtrace tests succeed (we test them separately as they 
require elevated privileges).

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[John Gardner]

John Gardner  added the comment:

Don't remove, it is still actively used by so many people. If the maintance 
overhead of 700 lines is a large burdern, then I'm happy to take on whatever 
work is required for it.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jakub Kulik]

Jakub Kulik  added the comment:

I ran the test and the results are attached (the first one is a complete test 
and the other one failed tests in verbose mode).

I checked the failing tests and divided them into several groups:

issues already reported:
  test_asyncio - reported and being solved here: 
https://bugs.python.org/issue38323
  test_posix - problem with return values, reported here: 
https://bugs.python.org/issue41839
  test_shutil - sendfile for Solaris was disabled in the library, but not in 
the test suite, which leads to the issues (I asked about reenabling here: 
https://bugs.python.org/issue41843; that would solve the issue)

these failures are probably related to our internal network settings (false 
positives):
  test_ssl, test_urllib, test_urllib2, test_urllib2_localnet

other:
  test_float - locale related *
  test_locale - locale related *
  test_re - most likely locale related *
  test_socket - known issues not yet reported upstream (not ready for 
acceptable PR)
  test_time - one locale related * and other not yet known
  test_tcl - yet to investigate

*) Locale related failures are due to wchar_t differences between the Linux 
world and ours. It's something we resolved very recently and have yet to rework 
it into an upstreamable form and report it.

It would be interesting to see Illumos results as well, because while also 
Solaris, there might be differences due to almost ten years of spit development.

--
Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file49558/Oracle_Solaris_full_test.txt

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jakub Kulik]

Change by Jakub Kulik :


Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file49559/Oracle_Solaris_detailed_test.txt

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Marcel Hofstetter]

Change by Marcel Hofstetter :


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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Apostolos Syropoulos]

Apostolos Syropoulos  added the comment:

I think this is really a bad idea. I am using OpenIndiana in my classrooms and 
I teach Python! So if your drop Solaris support, it means I have to install a 
new supported OS on my many systems, to learn and teach many things, etc, This 
will make my life extremely difficult.

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

Jakub: Would you mind to build the master branch of Python, run the test suite 
and post the tests results? In short:

git clone https://github.com/python/cpython.git
cd cpython
./configure
./python -m test -j0 -r

If possible, try to install dependencies (readline, lzma, etc.).

If there are failures, please copy them into a file, and attach the file to 
this issue.

It is to have an idea if it would be worth it to add a Python buildbot running 
on Solaris. If there are too many failures, it would be better to fix first 
most failures before considering to add a buildbot.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

Dear Solaris Python fans (about 20 so far here): Here is the situation.  There 
are 1000s of open issues on this tracker and at least 100s of open cpython PRs, 
and only 20-30 core developers, mostly volunteers, actively (depending on 
definition) merging PRs and maybe another 10 triagers helping to manage issues.

You all can help on issues by checking whether reported bugs still exist with 
current Python (3.8+) on current 'Solaris' (which includes what?).  Searching 
open issues for 'Solaris' in 'All text' just returned 114 hits.  About half 
were last touched over two years ago, and sometimes the last touch was 
inconsequential (a version or nosy change).  I suspect many of the 114 are 
obsolete.  For example, the last comment, five years ago, on #1471934, says the 
problem was fixed in Solaris 11.2.  Does this mean the issue should be closed?

The bottleneck for merging PRs is reviewing PRs.  We coredevs cannot do enough 
reviews ourselves.  But any competent user can  help.  Reviewing has two 
components.  First, does the patch fix the problem?  Testing this requires a 
Github account and a local clone and ability to build a test binary.  See 
devguide.python.org for more.  Second, does the patch meet our standards of 
code quality.  Solaris-specific patches likely change the C part of cpython, so 
C competence and understanding of PEP 7 is needed here.

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Pablo Galindo Salgado  added the comment:

Discussions are happening in this thread, including the requirements for 
supported platforms going forward:

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/thread/VDD7NMEDFXMOP4S74GEYJUHJRJPK2UR3/

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

I think the PR needs to be withdrawn.  Users have spoken.  There is zero need 
to cut them off.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jakub Kulik]

Jakub Kulik  added the comment:

Hi, here I am passing on several notes from the Oracle Solaris team:

- Oracle continues to develop and advance Oracle Solaris technology, and have 
committed to doing so for years to come. We release a new update (so called 
SRU) every month 
(https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/oracle-solaris%3a-update-to-the-continuous-delivery-model).
- Python is essential for Oracle Solaris and actively worked on. In fact, we 
recently finished migration to Python 3.7 and integrated Python 3.9, which will 
be released to customers soon.
- Internally, we are performing daily testing for each Python version from 3.7+ 
and reporting any issues that are found* (fortunately, there are not many of 
them because Python works very well!).
- Python 3 is running for more than a year now on any machine running Oracle 
Solaris 11.4.
- Looking at six download statistics is very misleading because we are 
packaging Python and its modules in Solaris packages. This package is essential 
(meaning that every Oracle Solaris machine will have it installed). Also, we 
are caching archives internally, so unless customers download a newer version 
into a virtual environment, you won't see more than a few downloads from Oracle 
Solaris (which are then distributed onto thousands of machines running Oracle 
Solaris).
- We are looking at how to provide build bots running on Oracle Solaris.
- We are trying to be part of the Python community and also put back Solaris 
specific fixes (we provide patches for many of those issues reported).
- It is certainly much better (hopefully for everyone) to resolve any specific 
Solaris issues and help with the maintenance within the Python community than 
do this just internally as part of Oracle Solaris development.

*) everything reported by me are Solaris related issues

Jakub

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[cyrus torros]

cyrus torros  added the comment:

Why?? I use python on solaris in my every day toolchain and at work. 

There is no harm in keeping it supported, it's not hard. 

Please do not drop support.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

> But it's not enough, please call for help:

Please *read* my call for help

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Gaige Paulsen]

Gaige Paulsen  added the comment:

Let me add my voice to those who ask to keep Solaris support in Python going 
forward. We use SmartOS which is an Illumos and thus Solaris derivative.

We use Ansible extensively to automate our SmartOS deployments. We have a 
couple hundred VMs and 2 part-time volunteers on staff. We are extremely 
reliant on Ansible, and thus Python.

I have multiple blogs and a couple of django-based web sites that are running 
on SmartOS and we run a wide variety of tools that use Python as part of their 
mix.

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

It seems like two Python core developers (Ronald Oussoren and Jesús Cea Avión) 
are volunteer to maintain the Solaris support. Moreover, it seems like some 
people would like to provide a Solaris server to run a buildbot server. In this 
case, I would be fine to keep the Solaris code.

But it's not enough, please call for help:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/message/NYWF4DUPFYZSKUUZ3ZHOSBQCWAF4IIQO/

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jan Poctavek]

Jan Poctavek  added the comment:

I'm speaking officially for Danube Cloud, an advanced project which is 
open-source virtualization platform similar to Proxmox, XCP-NG, oVirt, Joyent 
Triton, etc. Our base platform is SmartOS and we have everything written in 
Python.

If you drop support for "Solaris", it will hurt our project a lot. Python has 
become heart of many projects and it should not limit itself to support just 
the mainstream platforms and OSes.

Thank you for everything you've done so far and I hope we can continue together.

Jan Poctavek

Danube Cloud
https://github.com/erigones/esdc-ce

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Mike La Spina]

Mike La Spina  added the comment:

I suspect the download stats are not a full indication of usage on “SunOS” 
based on download stats. The bits are preinstalled. I do use it frequently via 
Illumos. Please support the platform.

Regards,
Mike

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Juraj Lutter]

Juraj Lutter  added the comment:

We, in danubecloud (https://github.com/erigones/esdc-ce) are relying on Python, 
too. Keep up the good work, folks :-)

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Olaf Bohlen]

Olaf Bohlen  added the comment:

Also, let me join in here. 
OpenIndiana hipster and all other illumos distributions will suffer if you drop 
the "Solaris" support. Just to get an idea which packages in a nearly default 
install depend on python:
pkg uninstall: Unable to remove 'runtime/python-35@3.5.9-2020.0.1.1' due to the 
following packages that depend on it:

  communication/im/pidgin@2.13.0-2020.0.1.4
  desktop/compiz/ccsm@0.8.16-2020.0.1.0
  desktop/time-slider@0.2.101-2020.0.1.116
  desktop/xdg/menu-editor/mozo@1.24.0-2020.0.1.0
  developer/build/onbld@0.5.11-2020.0.1.20038
  developer/clang-80@8.0.1-2020.0.1.0
  developer/ui-designer/glade@3.22.2-2020.0.1.0
  developer/versioning/mercurial-35@5.3.2-2020.0.1.0
  diagnostic/ddu@1.3.1-2020.0.1.40
  gnome/config/gconf@2.32.4-2020.0.1.8
  install/distribution-constructor@0.5.11-2020.0.1.1052
  metapackages/build-essential@1.0-2020.0.1.21
  package/pkg@0.5.11-2020.0.1.5543
  package/pkg/system-repository@0.5.11-2020.0.1.5543
  print/cups/system-config-printer@2.30.0-2020.0.1.3
  print/filter/hplip@3.19.12-2020.0.1.0
  release/os-welcome@1.0-2020.0.1.23
  service/gnome/desktop-cache@0.2.2-2020.0.1.7
  service/network/samba@4.12.5-2020.0.1.0
  system/file-system/zfs@0.5.11-2020.0.1.20038
  system/input-method/imf-startup@0.5.11-2020.0.1.3
  system/install@0.5.11-2020.0.1.1052
  system/network/avahi@0.7-2020.0.1.3
  system/network/avahi/gui@0.7-2020.0.1.3
  system/zones/brand/ipkg@0.5.11-2020.0.1.5543
  text/texinfo@6.7-2020.0.1.1
  web/server/apache-24/module/apache-wsgi-35@4.5.22-2020.0.1.5

Actually the package manager itself, installer, ZFS helpers, cups, the illumos 
build-system and and and all depend on python.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jorge Schrauwen]

Jorge Schrauwen  added the comment:

I'm an illumos user too, mostly SmartOS and some OmniOS.

I'm a heavy user of salt and thus phyton too, slowly prepping to get my stuff 
moved from 2.7 to 3.8 atm.

As mentioned above parts of the illumos build also use python and are moving to 
wads 3.9.

As mentioned I rarely use pip at all to install packages, nearly everything I 
need is available via IPS or pkgsrc depending on the distro.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Predrag Zečević]

Predrag Zečević  added the comment:

Please, keep support!

--
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versions:  -Python 3.10

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[abarbu]

abarbu  added the comment:

Please don't drop Solaris support, we still use it to this day.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Paolo Marcheschi]

Paolo Marcheschi  added the comment:

Please continue support for Solaris/IllumOS!
This is very important for us.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Carsten Grzemba]

Carsten Grzemba  added the comment:

Please continue support for Solaris/IllumOS! For build resources on the most 
recent Solaris platforms you can contact opencsw.org.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jasper Siepkes]

Jasper Siepkes  added the comment:

I'm another Illumos user that has crawled from under a rock ;-) to request not 
to drop Illumos support.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Marius Pana]

Marius Pana  added the comment:

Please do not drop support for SunOS. 
We are happy to provide some hosting services on SmartOS/Illumos for building.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Tony Albers]

Tony Albers  added the comment:

No no no, please don't.

Apart from FreeBSD, illumos distros are the only really hard-core UNIX OS'es 
still freely available, the features taken into account. 
SMF, dtrace and several hypervisor types makes illumos really stand out.

I understand that there are resources that need to be assigned to maintaining 
Python on illumos/SunOS, but please reach out to their communities, maybe 
someone can help.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[jason matthews]

jason matthews  added the comment:

Please do not drop support. 

Python is widely used in the "Solaris" community with most people downloading 
packages from Openindiana/Hipster or Joyent/SmartOS repos. Most "Solaris" users 
are not using Solaris proper.

The download stats published in this ticket is not a good representation of 
usage. Similarly most (Free|Open|*)BSD users install from their respective 
versions of ports.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Robert D. French]

Robert D. French  added the comment:

Hello! I just want to lend my voice in favor of maintaining "Solarish" support 
as well, and offer what help I may for resolving issues.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[brett]

brett  added the comment:

Between SmartOS, Illumos, and mainline Solaris, there is ample interest and 
support for ensuring that SunOS derivatives remain 1st class python platforms.

Platform genocide is both unnecessary and unwarranted.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Alan Coopersmith]

Change by Alan Coopersmith :


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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Peter Firmstone]

Peter Firmstone  added the comment:

No, please continue supporting Illumos, I'm still using it.  Illumos is still 
relevant on servers.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[hajma]

hajma  added the comment:

Like OmniOS, Oracle Solaris provides the 'six' (and many other) module 
prepackaged.
You can review a clone of the development repository at
https://github.com/oracle/solaris-userland/tree/master/components/python/six

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Andy Fiddaman]

Andy Fiddaman  added the comment:

Re: Downloads

OmniOS makes modules like 'six' available through its own IPS packaging system 
(which is written in Python) so installations won't show up pypi stats.

six is a core module on the platform so it is installed on 1000s of OmniOS 
machines (and then large numbers of SmartOS, OpenIndiana and tribblix ones too 
- all using the SunOS tag). The numbers aren't going to be in the same league 
as other platforms but the downloads stats definitely don't represent the 
illumos installation base and dependency on Python.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Andy Fiddaman]

Andy Fiddaman  added the comment:

We at OmniOS (an illumos distribution) are in the process of upgrading to 
Python 3.9 and working on getting tests clean. We're in pretty good shape with 
a few local patches and only having to skip a few tests at the moment, and most 
of those patches should be suitable for integrating generally.

Some of the tests just need adjusting to be aware of the different platform 
(e.g. illumos does not support multiple SCM_RIGHTS messages in a single 
packet), some still need investigating to find the root cause, but the list is 
small.

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Joshua M. Clulow]

Joshua M. Clulow  added the comment:

Hi!  I'm a member of the illumos core team, and I'm also pretty keen for us to 
keep Python support!  Some of our core OS build and packaging tooling is 
written in Python, and certainly applications like Synapse (Matrix) and Review 
Board are important to myself.

We currently provide a virtual machine for builds to the Go project that is 
wired in to their official CI/CD.  I expect we can help out with a similar 
thing here!

I know some illumos distributions (OmniOS, OpenIndiana, anything with pkgsrc, 
etc) are maintaining some patches against the stock Python to fix failing 
tests, etc.  Hopefully we can figure out how to get those things upstreamed and 
increase our participation there.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jesús Cea Avión]

Jesús Cea Avión  added the comment:

I am using Python 3.8 installed via pkgsrc in SmartOS with some Zones running 
Python 3.9 self compiled code.

More about the downloads stats:

4% packages in windows: I am pretty sure that most windows programmers install 
packages via conda-like tools. Surely there is more that 4% of python 
programmers on windows, even more in machine learning and data science areas, 
where windows and MacOS X rule (apparently being only 7% of PIP downloads).

Even if the PIP download stats would reflect penetration, Solaris is ahead of 
NetBSD and OpenBSD together.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Jesús Cea Avión]

Jesús Cea Avión  added the comment:

I think Solaris Support is still important and I could invest more time on it.

About package downloads:

1. I routinely download packages in my laptop (Linux) and distribute them to a 
fleet of servers (Linux and Solaris) via ansible and similar. Many servers in 
intranets don't install packages directly via PIP.

2. Under OmniOS or SmartOS (Illumos distributions), many people use the system 
package manager to install Python packages, not "PIP". For instance, 
http://netbsd.2816.n7.nabble.com/WIP-commit-Upgrade-to-Mailman-2-1-34-td427426.html.

Buildbots: I used to manage a buildbot with OpenIndiana, but it didn't survived 
the GITHUB migration. I could provide now a SmartOS buildbot.

As a core developer, I do care about Solaris. I fully realize I have been quite 
inactive since the github migration. My fault. I could devote more time to the 
task.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Ondřej Súkup]

Ondřej Súkup  added the comment:

Oracle moved solaris 11.4 to +- rolling release mode, last SRU is 26 from 
20.10.2020 with month release cadence.

On another side, almost all informations are behind the Oracle paywall

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Sebastian Wiedenroth]

Sebastian Wiedenroth  added the comment:

> Which Python version do you use?

Myself currently mostly python 3.8 via pkgsrc on SmartOS (one of the illumos 
distributions).

OmniOS ships 3.7: 
https://github.com/omniosorg/omnios-build/tree/master/build/python37

OpenIndiana ships at least 2.7, 3.5, 3.7.

The illumos build process also depends on python and was updated to support 3.9 
two weeks ago: https://www.illumos.org/issues/13217

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

> We (illumos) share the same uname "SunOS" and depend on this support.

Which Python version do you use?

https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris mentions Python 
2.7 and 3.4.

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

I looked at PyPI download statistics of the "six" module over the last 180 days 
(6 months), grouped by operating system name:

* SunOS: 3,975 downloads
* TOTAL: 590,727,298 downloads

SunOS is 0.0007% of all six downloads.

For comparison, the top 4 is:

* Linux: 91% (535,804,817)
* Windows: 4% (21,053,173)
* : 3% (18,695,360)
* macOS (Darwin): 3% (14,776,993)

Raw data of the top 14:

num_downloads,system_name
535804817,Linux
21053173,Windows
18695360,
14776993,Darwin
347090,FreeBSD
9759,Qnx
5350,Java
3975,SunOS
3178,CYGWIN_NT-10.0-14393
3177,CYGWIN_NT-10.0-17763
2505,CYGWIN_NT-10.0-18363
2263,AIX
2061,NetBSD
1891,OpenBSD

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Sebastian Wiedenroth]

Sebastian Wiedenroth  added the comment:

Please don't.

Even if Oracle doesn't care anymore, the open source illumos community does.
We (illumos) share the same uname "SunOS" and depend on this support.

I have offered to host an illumos buildbot in the past and that offer is still 
valid.
At that time the testsuite did not pass and I could not figure out the fix yet.
If having this fixed is a requirement to keep illumos supported I will invest 
more time into this. I can also offer shell access to anyone interested in 
helping with this.

--
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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Yonatan Goldschmidt]

Change by Yonatan Goldschmidt :


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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +21917
stage:  -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23002

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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[Batuhan Taskaya]

Change by Batuhan Taskaya :


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[issue42173] Drop Solaris support

[STINNER Victor]

New submission from STINNER Victor :

In past years, very few Python core developers took care of the Solaris 
support. The latest significant Solaris enhancement was in 2018 with the 
addition of a new Solaris st_fstype attribute to os.stat(), in Python 3.7, by 
Jesús Cea Avión (bpo-32659).

Another recent Solaris-related change is bpo-41687: "Fix implementation of 
sendfile to be compatible with Solaris".

On the Oracle side, there was an article about Python on Solaris in 2019:
"Future of Python on Solaris" by  Darren Moffat 
https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/future-of-python-on-solaris

I now that Giampaolo Rodola cares of the Solaris support for his psutil project:
https://github.com/giampaolo/psutil/

It's unclear to me if Oracle still plans to maintain Solaris. The latest 
release was published 2 years ago. The Wikipedia article says: "While Oracle 
did have a large layoff of Solaris development engineering staff, development 
continues today of which Solaris 11.4 was released in 2018."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(operating_system)

There is currently 25 open issues which could be closed if we drop the Solaris 
support.

See also the PEP 11 for the process.

I asked asked 4 years ago (in 2016) if Solaris support should/can be removed:
"OpenIndiana and Solaris support"
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-...@python.org/message/NOT2RORSNX72ZLUHK2UUGBD4GTPNKBUS/

Python has no longer buildbot workers running on Solaris or a Solaris variant 
(OpenIndiana, Illumos, etc.).

I propose to drop the Solaris support in Python to reduce the maintenance 
burden.

Python has a few features specific to Solaris:

* st_fstype attribute of os.stat()
* select.devpoll and selectors.DevpollSelector
* time.CLOCK_HIGHRES constant
* stat.S_ISDOOR()
* tarfile: "Solaris extended header" (no need to remove this one)

Solaris has many names and variants:

* SunOS
* SRV4
* Solaris
* Illumos (still active in July 2020 at least)
* OpenSolaris: "On Friday, August 13, 2010, details started to emerge relating 
to the discontinuation of the OpenSolaris project and the pending release of a 
new closed-source, proprietary version of Solaris, Solaris 11." says Wikipedia
* OpenIndiana (latest release in 2020)

I'm not sure on how to process? Deprecate all Solaris-specific features in 
Python 3.10, make sure that Python 3.11 cannot be built on Solaris anymore, and 
drop the code in Python 3.12? Or drop everything as soon as possible in Python 
3.10?

The alternative is to leave the code unchanged and let the code slowly die, as 
we did for other platforms like HP-UX and IRIX.

See also my notes on platforms supported by Python:
https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/platforms.html

Attached draft PR gives an idea on how much code can be removed if Solaris 
support is removed. A coase estimation is the removal of 700 lines:

 Doc/c-api/init.rst   |   3 +-
 Doc/distutils/apiref.rst |   1 -
 Doc/library/gettext.rst  |  10 +-
 Doc/library/os.rst   |  12 +-
 Doc/library/platform.rst |   5 +-
 Doc/library/posix.rst|   8 +-
 Doc/library/sys.rst  |   3 +-
 Doc/library/sysconfig.rst|   1 -
 Doc/library/time.rst |  13 +-
 Doc/using/unix.rst   |   7 -
 Include/pyport.h |   5 -
 Lib/cgi.py   |   4 +-
 Lib/ctypes/test/test_byteswap.py |   2 +-
 Lib/ctypes/util.py   | 100 ++
 Lib/distutils/command/bdist.py   |   2 +-
 Lib/distutils/tests/support.py   |   2 +-
 Lib/distutils/tests/test_build_ext.py|  21 --
 Lib/distutils/util.py|  11 --
 Lib/gettext.py   |   3 -
 Lib/logging/handlers.py  |   2 -
 Lib/platform.py  |  27 +--
 Lib/sysconfig.py |  11 --
 Lib/test/fork_wait.py|   4 +-
 Lib/test/subprocessdata/fd_status.py |   3 -
 Lib/test/test__locale.py |  24 ---
 Lib/test/test_asyncio/test_sendfile.py   |   6 -
 Lib/test/test_asyncore.py|   2 -
 Lib/test/test_cmd_line.py|   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_curses.py  |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_fileio.py  |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_importlib/import_/test_path.py |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_locale.py  |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_os.py  |  14 +-
 Lib/test/test_posix.py   |   7 +-
 Lib/test/test_pty.py |   4 -
 Lib/test/test_selectors.py   |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_shutil.py  |   2 +-
 Lib/test/test_socket.py  |   4 -
 Lib/test/test_strftime.py|   3