[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Steve Dower]

Steve Dower  added the comment:

Considering you've just been encountering issues with mismatched case, you're 
likely aware of how much harder that will make it to fix.

First you'll need a proposal on how to ensure deprecation warnings reach those 
who need them. I'd suggest for "Scripts"->"bin", you'll need to generate 
different stubs in "Scripts" that warn when they are called, but not the ones 
in "bin".

This alone affects enough of the ecosystem to need a PEP and a lot of 
coordination. It's not a simple change - sure you're ready for it?

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Darrel O'Pry]

Darrel O'Pry  added the comment:

steve,

I would be willing to champion this change. The process seems pretty 
straightforward. Create a release that creates the consistent layout on 
windows, symlinks the legacy paths, and adds some deprecation warnings.  Then 
in a later release remove the symlinks and deprecation warnings.. Any way you 
would be willing to guide me through the process?

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Jeff Moguillansky]

Jeff Moguillansky  added the comment:

Thanks for the feedback, I understand

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Paul Moore]

Paul Moore  added the comment:

Many tools hard code the "if windows then 'Scripts' else 'bin'" logic. They 
will simply fail to work with environments that don't have that layout. Yes, 
they probably should use sysconfig, but many don't (and sometimes for arguably 
good reasons, for example tools run using one Python interpreter that 
manipulate the environment of a different one).

It's something that *could* be changed, but the cost would be significant, the 
work needed to manage the transition is non-trivial, and the benefit isn't 
particularly obvious - "consistency" is never very compelling in isolation, and 
"works better with meson" is likely to be met with the argument that Python's 
layout has been around longer than meson, so it's on meson to accommodate 
Python, not the other way around.

I'm not actively against the idea, but neither do I particularly support it 
(I'm pretty sure it would require work for pip, for no benefit to pip's 
existing users, so it's a net loss for me personally).

If you're interested in pushing for this change go for it - I suspect that it 
would probably need a PEP, and at the very least it would need a community 
discussion - but be prepared for it to meet with a certain amount of resistance.

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Jeff Moguillansky]

Jeff Moguillansky  added the comment:

Maybe we can consider adding additional params and a new code path to python -m 
venv?  This way we don't break any existing functionality?

e.g. -includedir=... -libdir=... -bindir=...
?

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Steve Dower]

Steve Dower  added the comment:

> From the perspective of the overall system, I think it would simplify 
> integration and reduce complexity if we normalize folder structures across 
> platforms instead of having different folder structures.

I agree. But from the perspective of not breaking every existing system out 
there, it makes more sense to not suddenly change it.

If you'd like to champion the 2-3 year (a.k.a. 2-3 release) migration effort to 
get there, I'm more than happy to make sure you're taken seriously by the rest 
of the core team. I'm just not prepared to champion it myself :) I have other 
concerns to use my OSS time for.

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Jeff Moguillansky]

Jeff Moguillansky  added the comment:

To give more context regarding this issue:
I'm currently using meson build system to generate the pkg-config files, and it 
seems that the paths "include", "lib" are hardcoded.  

>From the perspective of the overall system, I think it would simplify 
>integration and reduce complexity if we normalize folder structures across 
>platforms instead of having different folder structures.

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Steve Dower]

Steve Dower  added the comment:

I'm afraid not, at least not without breaking everyone who has hardcoded the 
paths already. And I'm pretty sure that include directory is never used 
anymore, either (at least not by distutils, and not by default).

The sysconfig module provides the programmatic interface to the directory 
structure - I'd suggest using "sysconfig.get_paths()" to find the locations 
where files may be written to.

I'd also suggest building your native C library to a wheel and then installing 
that into the virtual environment, as that's the supported way of adding files. 
In that case, there's other tooling for specifying the destination for 
particular files, and it all already takes into account the layout on different 
platforms.

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[issue42863] Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows

[Jeff Moguillansky]

New submission from Jeff Moguillansky :

When creating a virtual environment on windows using venv, the folder 
structure: "Scripts", "Include", "Lib", is inconsistent with other platforms 
(e.g. "include", "lib", "bin", etc).  

This causes various integration issues.  

For example, suppose we want to build a native C library, and install it to the 
folder structure generated by the virtual environment.  
The pkg-config file assumes a folder structure of "include", "lib", "bin", and 
the generated pkg-config files are inconsistent with the python virtual 
environment folder structure.  

Can we have a consistent folder structure across platforms?

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components: Windows
messages: 384628
nosy: jmoguill2, paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Python venv inconsistent folder structure on windows
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.10, Python 3.6, Python 3.7, Python 3.8, Python 3.9

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