[issue46385] Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[Steven D'Aprano]

Steven D'Aprano  added the comment:

Please don't reopen this issue.

If you really want to take it to the Python-Ideas mailing list, you can:

https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/

or to Discuss:

https://discuss.python.org/c/ideas/6

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status: open -> closed

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[issue46385] Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[Devin Harper]

Devin Harper <345t...@gmail.com> added the comment:

Couldn't find that mailing list sorry. There's only 1 for developers like you. 
Removing tuples would be backwards compatible. My plan would automatically 
convert tuples to lists. Just keep all the list code besides parenthetical 
symbols. Merge tuple and list code besides parenthetical symbols if you have 
to. You can hash 1 item lists.

I do believe in keeping commas to delineate items on a list. Commas are used in 
natural language lists not parenthetical symbols. Just because natural language 
programming languages don't have natural language perfected yet doesn't mean we 
shouldn't perfect it in python 1st. Of course natural language is easier to 
read and understand than this bug. Why did you say it's not easier? You didn't 
say yet. 

I already tested tuples to confirm your other concern applies to them but not 
lists. I said keep list code. The mitigation for that tuple confusion is 
probably in there. Because lists don't have that problem. I never said get rid 
of lists. I only said get rid of parenthetical symbol complaints. It will just 
work with hard science. Just test it.

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status: closed -> open

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[issue46385] Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[Steven D'Aprano]

Steven D'Aprano  added the comment:

Dennis beat me to it in saying that tuples cannot be replaced by lists.

But I also wanted to say that it is *not true* that removing bracket symbols 
would increase readability. Natural language allows parenthetical phrases -- 
which can be bracketed using dashes (or with parentheses [commonly called round 
brackets in the British commonwealth]) or even commas -- so even in natural 
language they are used.

Even programming languages which are much, much closer to natural language than 
Python, like Hypertalk and Inform-7, use parentheses and delimiters for various 
purposes, for example:

http://inform7.com/book/WI_21_3.html

Ultimately, we simply can't remove brackets (square, round or curly) from the 
language. It would make it impossible to tell whether

func(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

was a call to func() with 5 integer arguments, or a single 5-element list 
argument, or two 2-element lists and an integer, or three integers and a 
2-element list, etc.

So don't waste your time taking this proposal to Python-Ideas.

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nosy: +steven.daprano

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[issue46385] Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[Dennis Sweeney]

Dennis Sweeney  added the comment:

"Removing tuples" would be highly backwards-incompatible, as millions of 
programs rely on tuples, and we can't break them for no reason.

> Lists have everything tuples have and more.

Not true: tuples are hashable, so they can be used as keys in dicts and sets, 
while lists cannot.

The Python-Ideas mailing list, rather than this bug tracker, is probably a 
better location for these sorts of proposals, so I'll close this for now, but 
this ticket can be re-opened if you can arrive at some sort of consensus with 
others on that list.

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nosy: +Dennis Sweeney
resolution:  -> rejected
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue46385] Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp

[Devin Harper]

New submission from Devin Harper <345t...@gmail.com>:

Parenthetical symbols like ()[]{} are unneeded if you just remove the 
complaining in the compiler/interpreter/programming language. It will increase 
readability and natural language programming( NLP). Just treat the symbols as 
strings and optional even for lists removing tuples. Tuples are unneeded too. 
Lists have everything tuples have and more.

--
components: Tests
messages: 410616
nosy: 345trig
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Remove parenthetical symbols for readability and nlp
type: compile error

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