Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Donald Stufft]

Yea to be clear. I just used csv and those fields as an example. I think TOML 
is a better choice, and we can add whatever fields are useful. 

Part of the devguide build step could be turning that into a nice human facing 
list (does that satisfy what Marc-Andre is looking for?). We could also have a 
cronjob that syncs github permissions with that list. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 4, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 21:59 Donald Stufft,  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft  wrote:
 We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer 
 is, and all other systems pull from that.
>>> 
>>> Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs 
>>> definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit 
>>> privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not 
>>> sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone 
>>> historically happened to be a core developer.
>> 
>> We have that I am aware of right now:
>> 
>> - GitHub
>> - bugs.p.o
>> - python-committers
>> 
>> And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:
>> 
>> - A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the technical 
>> status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a GitHub 
>> account).
>> 
>> 
>> There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is 
>> anything still in hg.python.org? I dunno).
> 
> 
> For us, hg.python.org only has the b.p.o code.
> 
>> 
>> As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has 
>> historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit 
>> things.
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
>> Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the 
>> ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it harder 
>> for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone who knew 
>> they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory sucks so 
>> sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).
> 
> 
> Yes, us old-timers aren't perfect.  If someone couldn't remember we would 
> probably go into the mailing list archives.
> 
> 
>> 
>> So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central location 
>> that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer, that isn’t 
>> tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be using today. 
>> Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc) are then 
>> modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth. This could 
>> be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository somewhere that 
>> lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts that will 
>> synchronize access from that to the relevant places.
> 
> 
> It would probably sit in the devguide. The question is how to potentially 
> display this in a readable format? Or maybe we don't care as long as we use a 
> format that makes both humans and computers happy? Otherwise we would have to 
> add a build step to the site. (Personally I say we do it in TOML since it's 
> readable and can still be writable through the GitHub web UI since I am 
> typically the person adding new folks ; we can then just link to it for 
> people to peruse.)
> 
>> 
>> So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:
>> 
>> Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username
> 
> 
> I would toss into the year joined. I know over in the GitHub issue about this 
> topic that people also don't want to lose mentor/voucher/proposer and any 
> notes about why the person got their commit privileges.
> 
>> 
>> And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the 
>> permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed 
>> there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has 
>> been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get 
>> access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public 
>> facing list could as well.
>> 
>> Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing is 
>> that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one particular 
>> service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to managing this 
>> list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list of people to 
>> the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular system, then 
>> our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems (and some % 
>> of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).
>> 
>>> 
>>> Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the 
>>> "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across 
>>> systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list 
>>> useful for 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 21:59 Donald Stufft,  wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft  wrote:
>
>> We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core
>> developer is, and all other systems pull from that.
>>
>
> Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs
> definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit
> privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not
> sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone
> historically happened to be a core developer.
>
>
> We have that I am aware of right now:
>
> - GitHub
> - bugs.p.o
> - python-committers
>
> And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:
>
> - A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the
> technical status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a
> GitHub account).
>
>
> There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is
> anything still in hg.python.org? I dunno).
>

For us, hg.python.org only has the b.p.o code.


> As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has
> historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit
> things.
>

Yep.

Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the
> ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it
> harder for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone
> who knew they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory
> sucks so sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).
>

Yes, us old-timers aren't perfect.  If someone couldn't remember we would
probably go into the mailing list archives.



> So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central
> location that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer,
> that isn’t tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be
> using today. Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc)
> are then modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth.
> This could be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository
> somewhere that lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts
> that will synchronize access from that to the relevant places.
>

It would probably sit in the devguide. The question is how to potentially
display this in a readable format? Or maybe we don't care as long as we use
a format that makes both humans and computers happy? Otherwise we would
have to add a build step to the site. (Personally I say we do it in TOML
since it's readable and can still be writable through the GitHub web UI
since I am typically the person adding new folks ; we can then just link
to it for people to peruse.)


> So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:
>
> Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username
>

I would toss into the year joined. I know over in the GitHub issue about
this topic that people also don't want to lose mentor/voucher/proposer and
any notes about why the person got their commit privileges.


> And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the
> permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed
> there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has
> been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get
> access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public
> facing list could as well.
>
> Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing
> is that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one
> particular service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to
> managing this list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list
> of people to the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular
> system, then our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems
> (and some % of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).
>
>
> Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the
> "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across
> systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list
> useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table
> instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames
> if people wanted to go that route.
>
>
>>
>> > On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> >
>> > Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
>> > one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.
>> >
>> > This is about having a record of the core developer status available
>> > to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
>> > government agencies, etc.
>> >
>> > Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
>> > use 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Donald Stufft]

> On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft  > wrote:
> We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer 
> is, and all other systems pull from that.
> 
> Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs 
> definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit 
> privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not 
> sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone 
> historically happened to be a core developer.

We have that I am aware of right now:

- GitHub
- bugs.p.o
- python-committers

And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:

- A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the technical 
status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a GitHub 
account).


There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is 
anything still in hg.python.org ? I dunno).

As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has 
historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit 
things. Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the 
ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it harder 
for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone who knew 
they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory sucks so 
sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).

So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central location 
that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer, that isn’t tied 
to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be using today. Ideally 
these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc) are then modified to pull 
from this thing as the singular source of truth. This could be as simple as a 
CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository somewhere that lists all of the 
developers, their status etc, plus scripts that will synchronize access from 
that to the relevant places.

So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:

Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username

And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the permissions 
of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed there has been 
added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has been removed, to 
ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get access). Likewise 
bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public facing list could as 
well.

Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing is 
that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one particular 
service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to managing this 
list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list of people to the 
technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular system, then our 
list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems (and some % of 
people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).

> 
> Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the 
> "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across 
> systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list 
> useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table 
> instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames if 
> people wanted to go that route.
>  
> 
> > On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  > > wrote:
> > 
> > Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
> > one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.
> > 
> > This is about having a record of the core developer status available
> > to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
> > government agencies, etc.
> > 
> > Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
> > use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group
> > is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already
> > serve that purpose.
> > 
> > 
> > On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer  >> >
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>  addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>  
> >>> 
> >>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
> >>> necessary email addresses.
> >>> 
> >>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for
> >> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a
> >> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft  wrote:

> We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer
> is, and all other systems pull from that.
>

Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs
definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit
privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not
sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone
historically happened to be a core developer.

Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the
"lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across
systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list
useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table
instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames
if people wanted to go that route.


>
> > On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> >
> > Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
> > one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.
> >
> > This is about having a record of the core developer status available
> > to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
> > government agencies, etc.
> >
> > Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
> > use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group
> > is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already
> > serve that purpose.
> >
> >
> > On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer <
> stefan.richtho...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>  addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
> 
> >>>
> >>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing
> the
> >>> necessary email addresses.
> >>>
> >>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails
> for
> >> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email
> from a
> >> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
> >>
> >>
> >>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it
> is
> >>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which
> AFAIK
> >>> requires a confirmed email address.
> >>>
> >> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
> >>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a
> >>> mandatory email field
> >>>
> >>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
> >> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too
> >> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we
> will
> >> need a place to send ballots.
> >>
> >> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition
> of it
> >> being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing
> list
> >> is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay
> with
> >> long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally
> >> fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit
> >> privileges then that's a separate challenge.
> >>
> >> -Brett
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :
> >>>
>  On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> 
> > On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> >>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> >>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> >>> Stackless, etc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
> >>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate
> Python
> >>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website?
> They
> >>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
> >>> right?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
> >> developers.
> >>
> >
> > I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
> > problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
> > this in one place.
> >
> 
>  I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs,
> or
>  more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we
> moved to
>  github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or
> not) for
>  all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
> 
>  I agree that we could probably come up 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Donald Stufft]

We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer is, 
and all other systems pull from that.

> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
> Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
> one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.
> 
> This is about having a record of the core developer status available
> to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
> government agencies, etc.
> 
> Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
> use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group
> is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already
> serve that purpose.
> 
> 
> On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
 addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
 
>>> 
>>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
>>> necessary email addresses.
>>> 
>>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
>>> 
>> 
>> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for
>> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a
>> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
>> 
>> 
>>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is
>>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK
>>> requires a confirmed email address.
>>> 
>> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
>>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a
>>> mandatory email field
>>> 
>>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
>>> 
>> 
>> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
>> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too
>> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will
>> need a place to send ballots.
>> 
>> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it
>> being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list
>> is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with
>> long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally
>> fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit
>> privileges then that's a separate challenge.
>> 
>> -Brett
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :
>>> 
 On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
 
> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
> 
>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>> 
>>> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>>> Stackless, etc
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
>>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
>>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
>>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
>>> right?
>>> 
>> 
>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
>> developers.
>> 
> 
> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
> this in one place.
> 
 
 I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or
 more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to
 github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for
 all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
 
 I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people
 who have been given the "core dev" status.
 
 For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
>> enough.
>> 
> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
> 
 
 Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
 addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
 
 Eric
 
 ___
 python-committers mailing list
 python-committers@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
 Code of Conduct: 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.

This is about having a record of the core developer status available
to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
government agencies, etc.

Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group
is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already
serve that purpose.


On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer 
> wrote:
> 
>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>>
>>
>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
>> necessary email addresses.
>>
>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
>>
> 
> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for
> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a
> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
> 
> 
>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is
>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK
>> requires a confirmed email address.
>>
> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a
>> mandatory email field
>>
>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
>>
> 
> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too
> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will
> need a place to send ballots.
> 
> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it
> being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list
> is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with
> long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally
> fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit
> privileges then that's a separate challenge.
> 
> -Brett
> 
> 
>>
>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :
>>
>>> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>>
 On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>
>>  I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>>  of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>>  separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>>  Stackless, etc
>>
>>
>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
>> right?
>>
>
> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
> developers.
>

 I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
 problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
 this in one place.

>>>
>>> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or
>>> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to
>>> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for
>>> all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
>>>
>>> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people
>>> who have been given the "core dev" status.
>>>
>>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
> enough.
>
 As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
 gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
 commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

>>>
>>> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
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>>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 02.08.2018 23:16, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 00:32 M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
 I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
 of other Python implementations in such a document, in
 separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
 Stackless, etc


 Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
 keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
 implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
 have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
 right?
>>>
>>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
>>> developers.
>>
>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
>> this in one place.
>>
>> Other projects will, of course, have their own websites, but since
>> Python is more than just CPython, it would be great to include those
>> other developers in an official list as well. It would be up for
>> for the other teams to maintain their lists.
>>
>> That said, this part is lower priority than the CPython core
>> developer listing.
>>
>>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
>>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
>>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
>>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
>>> enough.
>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
>>
> 
>> What I am after, is a list of core developers, not a list of
>> people with their keys on github (or where ever we move in the
>> future), since this list is not about a technical status, but rather
>> a social one.
>>
> 
> Then the issue I created which Mariatta linked to I think covers this
> desire to have a historical record of people who have been core developers
> along with when they have had commit privileges.

Yes, it does, but it's not a replacement, it's an additional
simple to query reference for 3rd parties.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 02.08.2018 23:07, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 14:44 M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
>> On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>>> See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
>>> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
>>>
>>> Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
>>> core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>>
>> I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
>> purpose.
>>
> 
> What is the purpose? I don't remember why we started to keep the developer
> log in that format as I have never felt the need to go back and see who
> vouched for someone or who granted the commit rights in the end.

It's good to know in which context someone received the commit
bit and who was driving it. This is part of our history and
we should maintain it as documentation of the process we have
in place for becoming a core developer.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

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   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Stefan Richthofer]

> as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not
voting (which I'm personally fine with)

That sounds reasonable. Maintaining contact info is everyone's own
responsibility and not a too hard requirement.
And I see that for the vote it's necessary to sort out emails more
carefully. Because of the duplicates
issue, votes should probably better be counted based on names rather than
emails though.
Anyway, it appears to me that the emails issue is orthogonal to the dev
list issue.

2018-08-02 23:25 GMT+02:00 Brett Cannon :

>
>
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer 
> wrote:
>
>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>>
>>
>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
>> necessary email addresses.
>>
>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
>>
>
> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for
> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a
> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
>
>
>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is
>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK
>> requires a confirmed email address.
>>
> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a
>> mandatory email field
>>
>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
>>
>
> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too
> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will
> need a place to send ballots.
>
> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of
> it being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing
> list is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay
> with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm
> personally fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with
> commit privileges then that's a separate challenge.
>
> -Brett
>
>
>>
>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :
>>
>>> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>>
 On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>
>>  I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>>  of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>>  separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>>  Stackless, etc
>>
>>
>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
>> right?
>>
>
> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
> developers.
>

 I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
 problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
 this in one place.

>>>
>>> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or
>>> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to
>>> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for
>>> all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
>>>
>>> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people
>>> who have been given the "core dev" status.
>>>
>>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
> enough.
>
 As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
 gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
 commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

>>>
>>> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting
>>> email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> ___
>>> python-committers mailing list
>>> python-committers@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>>
>>
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>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer 
wrote:

> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>
>
> I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
> necessary email addresses.
>
> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
>

The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for
people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a
personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).


> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is
> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK
> requires a confirmed email address.
>
* Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a
> mandatory email field
>
> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
>

Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too
many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will
need a place to send ballots.

Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it
being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list
is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with
long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally
fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit
privileges then that's a separate challenge.

-Brett


>
> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :
>
>> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>
>>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>>>
 On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

>  I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>  of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>  separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>  Stackless, etc
>
>
> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
> right?
>

 Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
 developers.

>>>
>>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
>>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
>>> this in one place.
>>>
>>
>> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or
>> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to
>> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for
>> all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
>>
>> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people
>> who have been given the "core dev" status.
>>
>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
 those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
 eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
 github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
 enough.

>>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
>>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
>>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 14:29 Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
>
> Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>

Ethan said he would reach out to the folks on bugs.python.org who don't
have a GitHub usernames listed, but I don't know if he was going to get to
this before the dev sprints.

-Brett


>
> Mariatta
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>
>> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
>> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
>> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
>> core developers.
>>
>> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
>> but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
>> to maintain.
>>
>> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
>> list:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
>> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
>> require such a list.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>> ___
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>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 00:32 M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
> > On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> >> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> >> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> >> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> >> Stackless, etc
> >>
> >>
> >> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
> >> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
> >> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
> >> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
> >> right?
> >
> > Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
> > developers.
>
> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
> this in one place.
>
> Other projects will, of course, have their own websites, but since
> Python is more than just CPython, it would be great to include those
> other developers in an official list as well. It would be up for
> for the other teams to maintain their lists.
>
> That said, this part is lower priority than the CPython core
> developer listing.
>
> > For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
> > those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
> > eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
> > github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
> > enough.
> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
>

> What I am after, is a list of core developers, not a list of
> people with their keys on github (or where ever we move in the
> future), since this list is not about a technical status, but rather
> a social one.
>

Then the issue I created which Mariatta linked to I think covers this
desire to have a historical record of people who have been core developers
along with when they have had commit privileges.
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 14:44 M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> > See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> > https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
> >
> > Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> > core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>
> I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
> purpose.
>

What is the purpose? I don't remember why we started to keep the developer
log in that format as I have never felt the need to go back and see who
vouched for someone or who granted the commit rights in the end.

-Brett


>
> The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.
>
> Resources we already have:
>
> * https://devguide.python.org/developers/
> *
>
> https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
> * python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only
>   for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available
>   to list members ?!)
> * https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
> * for the early days:
>
>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/HISTORY
>   in combination with
>
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/ACKS
>   (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo
>   and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)
>
> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> Stackless, etc.
>
>
> > Mariatta
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> >
> >> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
> >> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
> >> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
> >> core developers.
> >>
> >> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
> >> but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
> >> to maintain.
> >>
> >> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
> >> list:
> >>
> >> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
> >>
> >> Thoughts ?
> >>
> >> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
> >> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
> >> require such a list.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --
> >> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> >> eGenix.com
> >>
> >> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
> > Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> > Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> > Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> >> 
> >>
> >> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
> >>
> >>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> >> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
> >>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
> >>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
> >>   http://www.malemburg.com/
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> python-committers@python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 13:02 Jack Jansen  wrote:

>
> > On Aug 1, 2018, at 23:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> Le 01/08/2018 à 23:31, Jack Diederich a écrit :
> >> https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
> >
> > Probably outdated, for example Pablo Salingo Salgado doesn't seem there.
>
> And historically incomplete: I seem to be missing from that list, even
> though github say I have commit rights. Interestingly, Sjoerd Mullender
> _is_ on the list (and who of us two is the second committee to python and
> who is the third is a matter of discussion:-)
>

That file is auto-generated based on SSH keys for accessing hg.python.org,
so it became outdated as of the git migration.
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Jack Jansen]

> On Aug 1, 2018, at 23:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 01/08/2018 à 23:31, Jack Diederich a écrit :
>> https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
> 
> Probably outdated, for example Pablo Salingo Salgado doesn't seem there.

And historically incomplete: I seem to be missing from that list, even though 
github say I have commit rights. Interestingly, Sjoerd Mullender _is_ on the 
list (and who of us two is the second committee to python and who is the third 
is a matter of discussion:-)

Jack
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Eric V. Smith]

On 8/2/2018 7:53 AM, Stefan Richthofer wrote:

Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.


I always thought there were already at least three places containing the 
necessary email addresses.


* python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
* according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is 
mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which 
AFAIK requires a confirmed email address.
* Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement 
https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ wich also contains a 
mandatory email field


So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?


I don't recall, exactly. It was at an early Language Summit, and we were 
looking for ways to contact everyone and to associate people with email 
addresses. It might have involved the mercurial migration. Maybe it's 
not still required. My point is that it's hard to come up with a list of 
core devs and match them with email addresses. If that's not the 
requirement here, then great!


I know I've had several addresses over the years, some of which are 
non-obviously associated with me, and some of which I no longer have 
access to.


Eric




2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith >:


On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

  I think it would also be a good idea to include
core developers
  of other Python implementations in such a document, in
  separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
  Stackless, etc


Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython)
responsibility to
keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of
alternate Python
implementations. Don't they have their own community /
website? They
have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and
everything,
right?


Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
developers.


I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
this in one place.


I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core
devs, or more specifically a way to send them email. In the past,
before we moved to github, I took it upon myself to find email
addresses (current or not) for all core devs, and I gave up without
much success.

I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for
people who have been given the "core dev" status.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core
devs are
those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
eliminate some people who have been core developers and
never moved to
github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add
them easily
enough.

As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.


Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting
email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

Eric

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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Stefan Richthofer]

>
> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>

I always thought there were already at least three places containing the
necessary email addresses.

* python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
* according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is
mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK
requires a confirmed email address.
* Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ wich also contains a
mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith :

> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>
>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>>>
  I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
  of other Python implementations in such a document, in
  separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
  Stackless, etc


 Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
 keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
 implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
 have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
 right?

>>>
>>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
>>> developers.
>>>
>>
>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
>> this in one place.
>>
>
> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or
> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to
> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for
> all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
>
> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people who
> have been given the "core dev" status.
>
> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
>>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
>>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
>>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
>>> enough.
>>>
>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
>>
>
> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>
> Eric
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Eric V. Smith]

On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

     I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
     of other Python implementations in such a document, in
     separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
     Stackless, etc


Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
right?


Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
developers.


I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
this in one place.


I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or 
more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved 
to github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or 
not) for all core devs, and I gave up without much success.


I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people 
who have been given the "core dev" status.



For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
enough.

As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.


Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting 
email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.


Eric
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>>     I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>>     of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>>     separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>>     Stackless, etc
>>
>>
>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They
>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything,
>> right?
> 
> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
> developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
this in one place.

Other projects will, of course, have their own websites, but since
Python is more than just CPython, it would be great to include those
other developers in an official list as well. It would be up for
for the other teams to maintain their lists.

That said, this part is lower priority than the CPython core
developer listing.

> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to
> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily
> enough.
As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

What I am after, is a list of core developers, not a list of
people with their keys on github (or where ever we move in the
future), since this list is not about a technical status, but rather
a social one.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 02 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Stefan Richthofer]

> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep
> track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have
> their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?
>

Core developers of Python implementations under PSF ownership were
traditionally listed in committers.txt and developer log.
This includes at least PyPy, Jython and IronPython. If you want to propose
to change this, that should be a distinct discussion
I suppose. I don't know the reason why it was originally decided to
maintain this together, but I guess that the named lists are
more a PSF thing than a CPython thing.
If you intend to change this suddenly, the communities should get at least
some transition time. I only know the situation of Jython,
where no committers list is available. Currently it relies on the lists
named above to identify committers.


Stefan


2018-08-02 2:32 GMT+02:00 Mariatta Wijaya :

> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>> Stackless, etc
>
>
> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep
> track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have
> their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?
>
> Mariatta
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:54 PM Eric Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:44 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> > On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>> > > See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
>> > > https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
>> > >
>> > > Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the
>> dormant
>> > > core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>> >
>> > I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
>> > purpose.
>> >
>> > The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.
>> >
>> > Resources we already have:
>> >
>> > * https://devguide.python.org/developers/
>> > *
>> > https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search=1;
>> %40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
>> > * python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only
>> >   for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available
>> >   to list members ?!)
>> > * https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
>> > * for the early days:
>> >
>> > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/
>> e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/HISTORY
>> >   in combination with
>> >
>> > https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344
>> 642170aa2b/Misc/ACKS
>> >   (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo
>> >   and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)
>>
>> There's also:
>>
>> * the members of the github team
>> * folks marked as committers as BPO
>>
>> I don't recall if these are exposed via public lists though.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> > I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
>> > of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>> > separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>> > Stackless, etc.
>>
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Eric V. Smith]

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
of other Python implementations in such a document, in
separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
Stackless, etc


Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep 
track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python 
implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They 
have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?


Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are 
those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will 
eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to 
github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily 
enough.


Eric
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Mariatta Wijaya]

>
> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> Stackless, etc


Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep
track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python
implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have
their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Mariatta

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:54 PM Eric Snow 
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:44 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> > On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> > > See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> > > https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
> > >
> > > Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> > > core devs, but now I can't find that email.
> >
> > I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
> > purpose.
> >
> > The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.
> >
> > Resources we already have:
> >
> > * https://devguide.python.org/developers/
> > *
> >
> https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
> > * python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only
> >   for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available
> >   to list members ?!)
> > * https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
> > * for the early days:
> >
> >
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/HISTORY
> >   in combination with
> >
> >
> https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/ACKS
> >   (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo
> >   and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)
>
> There's also:
>
> * the members of the github team
> * folks marked as committers as BPO
>
> I don't recall if these are exposed via public lists though.
>
> -eric
>
> > I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> > of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> > separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> > Stackless, etc.
>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Eric Snow]

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:44 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> > See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> > https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
> >
> > Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> > core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>
> I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
> purpose.
>
> The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.
>
> Resources we already have:
>
> * https://devguide.python.org/developers/
> *
> https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
> * python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only
>   for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available
>   to list members ?!)
> * https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
> * for the early days:
>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/HISTORY
>   in combination with
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/ACKS
>   (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo
>   and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)

There's also:

* the members of the github team
* folks marked as committers as BPO

I don't recall if these are exposed via public lists though.

-eric

> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
> Stackless, etc.
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
> See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
> 
> Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> core devs, but now I can't find that email.

I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different
purpose.

The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.

Resources we already have:

* https://devguide.python.org/developers/
*
https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
* python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only
  for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available
  to list members ?!)
* https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
* for the early days:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/HISTORY
  in combination with

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170aa2b/Misc/ACKS
  (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo
  and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
of other Python implementations in such a document, in
separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
Stackless, etc.


> Mariatta
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
>> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
>> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
>> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
>> core developers.
>>
>> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
>> but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
>> to maintain.
>>
>> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
>> list:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
>> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
>> require such a list.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Antoine Pitrou]

Le 01/08/2018 à 23:31, Jack Diederich a écrit :
> https://hg.python.org/committers.txt

Probably outdated, for example Pablo Salingo Salgado doesn't seem there.

Regards

Antoine.

> 
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Mariatta Wijaya
> mailto:mariatta.wij...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
> 
> 
> Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the
> dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.
> 
> Mariatta
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  > wrote:
> 
> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
> core developers.
> 
> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
> but we could also use a page on www.python.org
> , if that's easier
> to maintain.
> 
> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
> list:
> 
> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
> 
> 
> Thoughts ?
> 
> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
> require such a list.
> 
> Thanks,
> -- 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug
> 01 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... 
> http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...         
>  http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...         
>  http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
> 
> 
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and
> costs :::
> 
>    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>     D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>            Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>                http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
> 
>                       http://www.malemburg.com/
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
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> 
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Jack Diederich]

https://hg.python.org/committers.txt

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
>
> Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
> core devs, but now I can't find that email.
>
> Mariatta
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>
>> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
>> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
>> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
>> core developers.
>>
>> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
>> but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
>> to maintain.
>>
>> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
>> list:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
>> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
>> require such a list.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
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>
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Re: [python-committers] List of all core developers

[Mariatta Wijaya]

See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant
core devs, but now I can't find that email.

Mariatta


On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
> developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
> which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
> core developers.
>
> I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
> but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
> to maintain.
>
> Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
> list:
>
> https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
> The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
> require such a list.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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[python-committers] List of all core developers

[M.-A. Lemburg]

It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
core developers.

I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier
to maintain.

Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
list:

https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows

Thoughts ?

Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
require such a list.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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