Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
On 1 December 2013 15:55, R. David Murray wrote: > You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I > think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin > will need to handle that one.) Thanks - I've now removed his User role access on the main tracker. > On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left > when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day > that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think > it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure), > so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation. We'll try "no roles assigned" for now. I don't expect Anatoly to be actively malicious about this - I still believe he's genuinely trying to help. Unfortunately, his getting obsessed with things that are either tedious to fix or just incredibly hard to change and then refusing to take "no" for an answer is so incredibly draining for other community members that it seemed necessary to send a much stronger "please stop trying to help, as you're doing more harm than good" message. It's a terrible thing to have to say to someone, but at this point I'm more worried about the effect on everyone else (including me) of his continued participation than I am about the impact explicit exclusion will have on him :( Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [email protected] | Brisbane, Australia ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
Quoting Ned Deily : You can't fix people, but you can prevent them from actually being harmful. The thing is it's a technical solution to a social problem. No, that's not true. The ban itself is a social reaction to a social problem. The technical reaction is only to actually enforce the ban. I have personally banned two people so far from "python-dev", and at least in one case, the ban wasn't actually enforced, but honored nevertheless. It *would* be a technical solution if the ban wasn't actually communicated, but only implemented (something which is quite common in RL, e.g. when people change the locks on their doors to lock out their former partners) the former tend to be all that effective for the latter. And I think reasonable people can disagree about the degree of harmfulness. I personally don't see his behavior, in and of itself, as all that harmful. I *do* see the negative reaction it provokes as being harmful. Clearly, it bothers people and that is disruptive. But it would be a whole lot less disruptive if we didn't let it be, e.g. by just letting it go and ignoring it. Since nobody mentioned it this time (or since I missed if somebody did), I'll mention the "poisonous people" talk from Collins-Sussman/Fitzpatrick): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52kFL8zVoM I said this several years ago, and I still believe that anatoly is a poisonous person, in the sense of this talk. Several strategies just don't work here, e.g. trying to win an argument with anatoly. A strategy that I believe that *also* doesn't work is to let "the community" ignore him. In a free software project, fluctuation is just too high to make this work. It takes several years (for some of us) to recognize that ignoring him entirely is the only reasonable personal reaction. If we wanted to effectively make it work, we would have to educate every single contributor "don't talk to anatoly, and don't respond if he is talking to you". This can't work in the large scale. If python-list is a troll magnet, that's a pity, but how is that relevant to the *development community*? It's relevant because python-list is yet another forum hosted by the PSF via python.org mailing lists and is viewed as part of the broader Python community as a whole. If we propose to ban someone from python-list, along with other lists, that raises the question of what standards are being used. I don't think anybody should be banned from python-list; I think talk is just about "python-dev" (including all core cpython infrastructure). It is a problem. And choosing to not participate is a perfectly rational and legitimate response. But it doesn't necessarily follow that banning someone is a better response. I think it is. Based on past experience, it would be temporarily anyway, and it may buy us a year or so of mental peace. Regards, Martin ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
Quoting "R. David Murray" :
On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left
when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day
that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think
it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure),
so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation.
I just experimented with this a bit. Removing the User role will also mean
that you lose the ability to log in ("You are not allowed to login");
I think it might be better to give the "Anonymous" role (meaning that
it makes no difference whether you are logged in or not).
Regards,
Martin
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Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 18:11:47 +0100, [email protected] wrote: > > Quoting "R. David Murray" : > > > On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left > > when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day > > that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think > > it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure), > > so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation. > > I just experimented with this a bit. Removing the User role will also mean > that you lose the ability to log in ("You are not allowed to login"); > I think it might be better to give the "Anonymous" role (meaning that > it makes no difference whether you are logged in or not). That makes sense to me. Done. --David ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
Quoting "R. David Murray" : You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin will need to handle that one.) I've restricted anatoly's access there; I've also given you the Admin role on that tracker. Regards, Martin ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
On Nov 30, 2013, at 23:52 , Georg Brandl wrote: > Am 01.12.2013 03:12, schrieb Nick Coghlan: >> OK, I've sent the notification to Anatoly. I cc'ed Guido and Ezio >> (since I included their offer to mediate tracker access) and also >> bcc'ed the list admins for the three currently affected lists (so they >> know why his posts start appearing in the moderation queue). > Thanks! I'm sorry to have spawned such a long and draining discussion, > but I'm convinced it had to be done at some point. And I'm sorry to have prolonged the discussion although I do appreciate the comments on what I wrote. While it has been painful, I think the way this decision was reached is praiseworthy. The discussion was open, serious, deeply-felt, yet respectful to all - in other words, in the best traditions of the Python community. Thank you all and a particular thank you to Nick. --Ned -- Ned Deily [email protected] -- [] ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
On 11/30/2013 04:16 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: For python-ideas, if someone wants to allow Anatoly's posts through then I will happily make them an admin of the list, but I have to just admit I can't be trusted to do it objectively and I don't want Anatoly to receive unjust treatment; there's just too much history after I tried to point out how he was being rude years ago and ended up with him attacking the PSF which I took personally. I'll ask Titus if he thinks he's up for it but I don't want to force him to shoulder the entire burden if doesn't think he can do it objectively either. I can do it. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:29:25 +0100, [email protected] wrote: > > Quoting "R. David Murray" : > > > You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I > > think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin > > will need to handle that one.) > > I've restricted anatoly's access there; I've also given you the > Admin role on that tracker. Thanks. --David ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Re: [python-committers] Anatoly has been warned about his behaviour potentially leading to his loss of tracker privileges
Thanks, Nick. Your time and energy are appreciated. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
