Re: [Python-Dev] Sourceforge CVS down?

2005-08-10 Thread Thomas Heller
Tim Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> [Neil Schemenauer[
>> I've been getting:
>> 
>>  ssh: connect to host cvs.sourceforge.net port 22: Connection refused
>> 
>> for the past few hours.  Their "Site News" doesn't say anything
>> about downtime.
>
> A cvs update doesn't work for me either now.  I did finish one
> sometime before noon (EDT) today, though.

They've been upgrading the CVS server hardware.  See the 'site status'
page http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?group_id=1&docid=2352

Thomas

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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP: Migrating the Python CVS to Subversion

2005-08-10 Thread Fredrik Lundh
Nicholas Bastin wrote:

> It's a mature product.  I would hope that that would count for
> something.  I've had enough corrupted subversion repositories that I'm
> not crazy about the thought of using it in a production system.  I
> know I'm not the only person with this experience.

compared to Perforce, SVN is extremely fragile.  I've used both for
years, and I've never had Perforce repository break down on me.  our
SVN repositories are relatively stable these days, but the clients are
still buggy as hell (mostly along the "I don't feel like doing this today,
despite the fact that it worked yesterday, and I don't feel like telling
you what's wrong either" lines.  having to nuke workspaces from time
to time gets boring, quickly.)

in contrast, Perforce just runs and runs and runs.  the clients always
do what you tell them.  and server maintenance is trivial; just make sure
that the server starts when the host computer boots, and if you have
enough disk, just leave it running.  if you're tight on disk space, trim
away some log files now and then.  that's it.

but despite this, if all you need is a better CVS, I'd say SVN is good
enough for today's python-dev.

I'd still think that a more distributed, mail-driven system (built on
top of Mercurial, Bazaar-NG, or some such (*)) would speed up
both development and patch processing, and also make it a lot easier
for "casual contributors" and "drive-by developers" to help develop
Python, but that's another story.



*) being able to ship a fully working Python-powered SCM with the
Python source code would be an extra coolness bonus, of course. 



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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP: Migrating the Python CVS to Subversion

2005-08-10 Thread Guido van Rossum
On 8/10/05, Fredrik Lundh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> in contrast, Perforce just runs and runs and runs.  the clients always
> do what you tell them.  and server maintenance is trivial; just make sure
> that the server starts when the host computer boots, and if you have
> enough disk, just leave it running.  if you're tight on disk space, trim
> away some log files now and then.  that's it.

We've used P4 at Elemental for two years now; I mostly agree with this
assessment, although occasionally the server becomes unbearably slow
and a sysadmin does some painful magic to rescue it. Maybe that's just
because the box is underpowered.

More troublesome is that I've seen a few client repositories getting
out of sync; one developer spent a lot of time tracking down
mysterious compilation errors that went away after forced resync'ing.
We never figured out the cause, but (since he swears he didn't touch
the affected files) most likely hitting ^C during a previous sync
could've broken some things.

Another problem with P4 is that local operation is lousy -- if you
can't reach the server, you can't do *anything* -- while svn always
lets you edit and diff. Also, P4 has *no* command to tell you which
files you've created without adding them to the repository yet -- so
the most frequent build breakage is caused by missing new files.

Finally, while I hear that P4's branching support is superior over
SVN's, I find it has a steep learning curve -- almost every developer
needs some serious hand-holding before they understand P4 branches
correctly.

I'm intrigued by Linus Torvald's preference for extremely distributed
source control, but I have no experience and it seems a bit, um,
experimental. Someone should contact Steve Alexander, who I believe is
excited about Bazaar-NG.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP: Migrating the Python CVS to Subversion

2005-08-10 Thread Charles Cazabon
Guido van Rossum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I'm intrigued by Linus Torvald's preference for extremely distributed
> source control, but I have no experience and it seems a bit, um,
> experimental.

"git", which is Linus' home-grown replacement for BitKeeper, quickly attracted
a development community and has grown into a reasonably full-featured
distributed RCS.  It is apparently already stable enough for serious use.
If I was trying to pick an RCS for a large, distributed project, I would at
least investigate it as a possibility.

Charles
-- 
---
Charles Cazabon   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPL'ed software available at:   http://pyropus.ca/software/
---
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP: Migrating the Python CVS to Subversion

2005-08-10 Thread Trent Mick
[Guido van Rossum wrote]
> Also, P4 has *no* command to tell you which
> files you've created without adding them to the repository yet -- so
> the most frequent build breakage is caused by missing new files.

This one is a frequent complaint from CVS-heads here at ActiveState.
I have a p4 wrapper called "px" that extends some p4 commands (and adds
a couple). One of the commands that it extends is "diff" to add a "-sn"
(new) option similar to the "-se" (edit), "-sd" (delete).

$ px help diff
...the usual 'p4 help diff'...
new px options:   [-sn -c changelist#]

Px adds another -s option:
-sn Local files not in the p4 client.

Px also adds the --skip option (which only makes sense
together with -sn) to specify that regularly skipped file
(CVS control files, *~) should be skipped.

The '-c' option can be used to limit diff'ing to files in
the given changelist. '-c' cannot be used with any of the
'-s' options.


'px' should grow a "px status" a la "svn|cvs status" to give a quick
summary of local differences.  Other additions:

$ px help px

'px' entensions to 'p4':

px --help
Add px-specific help output to the usual 'p4 -h' and 'p4 -?'.
See 'px help usage'.

px -V, --version
Print px-specific version information in addition to the usage
'p4 -V' output.  See 'px help usage'.

px -g ...
Format input/output as *un*marshalled Python objects. Compare to
the usual 'p4 -G ...'.  See 'px help usage'.

px annotate ...
Identify last change to each line in given file, like 'cvs
annotate' or 'p4pr.pl'.  See 'px help annotate'.

px backout ...
Provide all the general steps for rolling back a perforce
change as described in Perforce technote 14.  See 'px help
backout'.

px changes -d ...
Print the full 'p4 describe -du' output for each listed change.
See 'px help changes'.

px diff -sn --skip ...
List local files not in the p4 depot. Useful for importing new
files into a depot via 'px diff -sn --skip ./... | px -x - add'.
See 'px help diff'.

px diff -c  ...
Limit diffing to files opened in the given pending change.  See
'px help diff'.

px genpatch []
Generate a patch (usable by the GNU 'patch' program) from a
pending or submitted chagelist.  See 'px help genpatch'.

Available here:
http://starship.python.net/~tmick/#px

Pure python. Works on Python >=2.2. Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, Unix.



Trent

-- 
Trent Mick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Python-Dev] Python + Ping

2005-08-10 Thread Joseh Martins
Hello Everybody,

I´m a beginner in python dev..

Well, i need to implement a external ping command and get the results
to view the output. How can I do that?

Per example, i need to ping and IP address and need to know if the
host is down or up.

Tka a lot?
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Re: [Python-Dev] pdb: should next command be extended?

2005-08-10 Thread Trent Mick
[Ilya Sandler wrote]
> 
> > At OSCON, Anthony Baxter made the point that pdb is currently one of the
> > more unPythonic modules.
> 
> What is unpythonic about pdb? Is this part of Anthony's presentation
> online? (Google found a summary and slides from presentation but they
> don't say anything about pdb's deficiencies)

Kevin Altis was policing him to 5 minutes for his lightning talk so he
didn't have a lot of time to elaborate. :) His slides were more of the
Lawrence Lessig, quick and pithy style rather than lots of explanatory
text.

I think overridability, i.e. being about to subclass the Pdb stuff to do
useful things, or lack of it was the main beef.  Mostly Anthony was
echoing comments from others' experiences with trying to work with the
Pdb code. 

Trent

-- 
Trent Mick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python + Ping

2005-08-10 Thread Delaney, Timothy (Tim)
Joseh Martins wrote:

> I´m a beginner in python dev..
> 
> Well, i need to implement a external ping command and get the results
> to view the output. How can I do that?
> 
> Per example, i need to ping and IP address and need to know if the
> host is down or up.

python-dev is for discussion of the development *of* python, not development 
*with* python.

This question should be posted to the python-list@python.org discussion list 
(or comp.lang.python newsgroup - they're the same thing) or possibly even the 
tutor@python.org mailing list.

Tim Delaney
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python + Ping

2005-08-10 Thread Josiah Carlson

Your email is off-topic for python-dev, which is for the development OF
Python.  Repost your question on python-list.

 - Josiah


Joseh Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everybody,
> 
> I´m a beginner in python dev..
> 
> Well, i need to implement a external ping command and get the results
> to view the output. How can I do that?
> 
> Per example, i need to ping and IP address and need to know if the
> host is down or up.
> 
> Tka a lot?
> ___
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> > WindowsError
> > 
> >
> > This should be kept.  Unlike module specific exceptions, this
exception
> > occurs in multiple places and diverse applications.  It is
appropriate
> > to list as a builtin.
> >
> > "Too O/S specific" is not a reason for eliminating this.  Looking at
the
> > codebase there does not appear to be a good substitute.  Eliminating
> > this one would break code, decrease clarity, and cause modules to
grow
> > competing variants.

[Brett]
> I unfortunately forgot to add that the exception would be moved under
> os, so it would be more of a renaming than a removal.

Isn't OSError already used for another purpose (non-platform dependent
exceptions raised by the os module)?



Raymond

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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Brett Cannon
On 8/10/05, Raymond Hettinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > WindowsError
> > > 
> > >
> > > This should be kept.  Unlike module specific exceptions, this
> exception
> > > occurs in multiple places and diverse applications.  It is
> appropriate
> > > to list as a builtin.
> > >
> > > "Too O/S specific" is not a reason for eliminating this.  Looking at
> the
> > > codebase there does not appear to be a good substitute.  Eliminating
> > > this one would break code, decrease clarity, and cause modules to
> grow
> > > competing variants.
> 
> [Brett]
> > I unfortunately forgot to add that the exception would be moved under
> > os, so it would be more of a renaming than a removal.
> 
> Isn't OSError already used for another purpose (non-platform dependent
> exceptions raised by the os module)?
> 

Don't quite follow what that has to do with making WindowsError become
os.WindowsError.  Yes, OSError is meant for platform-agnostic OS
errors by the os module, but how does that affect the proposed move of
WindowsError?

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> > Then I don't follow what you mean by "moved under os".
> 
> In other words, to get the exception, do ``from os import
> WindowsError``.  Unfortunately we don't have a generic win module to
> put it under.  Maybe in the platform module instead?

-1 on either.  The WindowsError exception needs to in the main exception
tree.  It occurs in too many different modules and applications.  That
is a good reason for being in the main tree.

If the name bugs you, I would support renaming it to PlatformError or
somesuch.  That would make it free for use with Mac errors and Linux
errors.  Also, it wouldn't tie a language feature to the name of an MS
product.



Raymond

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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Brett Cannon
On 8/10/05, Raymond Hettinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Then I don't follow what you mean by "moved under os".
> >
> > In other words, to get the exception, do ``from os import
> > WindowsError``.  Unfortunately we don't have a generic win module to
> > put it under.  Maybe in the platform module instead?
> 
> -1 on either.  The WindowsError exception needs to in the main exception
> tree.  It occurs in too many different modules and applications.  That
> is a good reason for being in the main tree.
> 

Where is it used so much?  In the stdlib, grepping for WindowsError
recursively in Lib in 2.4 turns up only one module raising it
(subprocess) and only two modules with a total of three places of
catching it (ntpath once, urllib twice).  In Module, there are no
hits.

> If the name bugs you, I would support renaming it to PlatformError or
> somesuch.  That would make it free for use with Mac errors and Linux
> errors.  Also, it wouldn't tie a language feature to the name of an MS
> product.
> 

I can compromise to this if others prefer this alternative.  Anybody
else have an opinion?

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Aahz
On Wed, Aug 10, 2005, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On 8/10/05, Raymond Hettinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> If the name bugs you, I would support renaming it to PlatformError or
>> somesuch.  That would make it free for use with Mac errors and Linux
>> errors.  Also, it wouldn't tie a language feature to the name of an MS
>> product.
> 
> I can compromise to this if others prefer this alternative.  Anybody
> else have an opinion?

Googling for "windowserror python" produces 800 hits.  So yes, it does
seem to be widely used.  I'm -0 on renaming; +1 on leaving things as-is.
-- 
Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The way to build large Python applications is to componentize and
loosely-couple the hell out of everything.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Trent Mick
[Brett Cannon wrote]
> Where is it used so much?  In the stdlib, grepping for WindowsError
> recursively in Lib in 2.4 turns up only one module raising it
> (subprocess) and only two modules with a total of three places of
> catching it (ntpath once, urllib twice).  In Module, there are no
> hits.

Just a data point (not really following this thread): The PyWin32
sources raise WindowsError twice (one of them is
win32\Demos\winprocess.py which is probably where subprocess got it
from) an catches it in 11 places.

Trent

-- 
Trent Mick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Brett Cannon
On 8/10/05, Aahz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2005, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > On 8/10/05, Raymond Hettinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> If the name bugs you, I would support renaming it to PlatformError or
> >> somesuch.  That would make it free for use with Mac errors and Linux
> >> errors.  Also, it wouldn't tie a language feature to the name of an MS
> >> product.
> >
> > I can compromise to this if others prefer this alternative.  Anybody
> > else have an opinion?
> 
> Googling for "windowserror python" produces 800 hits.  So yes, it does
> seem to be widely used.  I'm -0 on renaming; +1 on leaving things as-is.

But Googling for "attributeerror python" turns up 94,700, a factor of
over 118.  OSError turns up 20,300 hits; a factor of 25.  Even
EnvironmentError turns up more at 5,610 and I would expect most people
don't use this class directly that often.

While 800 might seem large, it's puny compared to other exceptions. 
Plus, if you look at the first 10 hits, 4 are from PEP 348, one of
which is the top hit.  =)

-Brett
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[Python-Dev] Weekly Python Patch/Bug Summary

2005-08-10 Thread Kurt B. Kaiser
Patch / Bug Summary
___

Patches :  352 open ( -2) /  2896 closed ( +8) /  3248 total ( +6)
Bugs:  913 open ( +4) /  5162 closed (+10) /  6075 total (+14)
RFE :  191 open ( +0) /   178 closed ( +0) /   369 total ( +0)

New / Reopened Patches
__

compiler package: "global a; a=5"  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1251748  opened by  Armin Rigo

Simplying Tkinter's event loop  (2005-08-05)
   http://python.org/sf/1252236  opened by  Michiel de Hoon

modulefinder misses modules  (2005-08-05)
   http://python.org/sf/1252550  opened by  Thomas Heller

poplib list() docstring fix  (2005-08-05)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1252706  opened by  Steve Greenland

QuickTime API needs corrected object types  (2005-08-09)
   http://python.org/sf/1254695  opened by  Christopher K Davis

GCC detection for runtime_library_dirs when ccache is used  (2005-08-09)
   http://python.org/sf/1254718  opened by  Seo Sanghyeon

Patches Closed
__

Faster commonprefix in macpath, ntpath, etc.  (2005-01-20)
   http://python.org/sf/1105730  closed by  birkenfeld

poplib list() docstring fix  (2005-08-05)
   http://python.org/sf/1252706  closed by  birkenfeld

absolute paths cause problems for MSVC  (2003-10-21)
   http://python.org/sf/827386  closed by  loewis

Fix LINKCC (Bug #1189330)  (2005-07-15)
   http://python.org/sf/1239112  closed by  loewis

file.encoding support for file.write and file.writelines  (2005-06-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1214889  closed by  birkenfeld

st_gen and st_birthtime support for FreeBSD  (2005-04-11)
   http://python.org/sf/1180695  closed by  loewis

Add unicode for sys.argv, os.environ, os.system  (2005-07-02)
   http://python.org/sf/1231336  closed by  loewis

Refactoring Python/import.c  (2004-12-30)
   http://python.org/sf/1093253  closed by  theller

New / Reopened Bugs
___

cgitb gives wrong lineno inside try:..finally:  (2005-08-03)
   http://python.org/sf/1251026  opened by  Rob W.W. Hooft

Decoding with unicode_internal segfaults on UCS-4 builds  (2005-08-03)
   http://python.org/sf/1251300  opened by  nhaldimann

smtplib and email.py  (2005-08-03)
   http://python.org/sf/1251528  opened by  Cosmin Nicolaescu

Python 2.4.1 crashes when importing the attached script  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1251631  opened by  Viktor Ferenczi

Fail codecs.lookup() on 'mbcs' and 'tactis'  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1251921  reopened by  lemburg

Fail codecs.lookup() on 'mbcs' and 'tactis'  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1251921  opened by  liturgist

Issue with telnetlib read_until not timing out  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1252001  opened by  padded

IOError after normal write  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1252149  opened by  Patrick Gerken

os.system on win32 can't handle pathnames with spaces  (2005-08-05)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1252733  opened by  Ori Avtalion

non-admin install may fail (win xp pro)  (2005-07-05)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1232947  reopened by  loewis

raw_input() displays wrong unicode prompt  (2005-01-10)
   http://python.org/sf/1099364  reopened by  prikryl

Python interpreter unnecessarily linked against c++ runtime  (2005-08-08)
   http://python.org/sf/1254125  opened by  Zak Kipling

parser fails on long non-ascii lines if coding declared  (2005-08-08)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1254248  opened by  Oleg Noga

Docs for list.extend() are incorrect  (2005-08-08)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1254362  opened by  Kent Johnson

"appropriately decorated" is undefined in MultiFile.push doc  (2005-08-09)
   http://python.org/sf/1255218  opened by  Alan

float('-inf')  (2005-08-10)
   http://python.org/sf/1255395  opened by  Steven Bird

bug in use of __getattribute__ ?  (2005-08-10)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1256010  opened by  sylvain ferriol

Bugs Closed
___

numarray in debian python 2.4.1  (2005-08-02)
   http://python.org/sf/1249903  closed by  birkenfeld

incorrect description of range function  (2005-08-02)
   http://python.org/sf/1250306  closed by  birkenfeld

isinstance() fails depending on how modules imported  (2005-08-01)
   http://python.org/sf/1249615  closed by  hgibson50

set of pdb breakpoint fails  (2005-07-30)
   http://python.org/sf/1248127  closed by  birkenfeld

Fail codecs.lookup() on 'mbcs' and 'tactis'  (2005-08-04)
   http://python.org/sf/1251921  closed by  loewis

os.system on win32 can't handle pathnames with spaces  (2005-08-05)
   http://python.org/sf/1252733  closed by  salty-horse

distutils: MetroWerks support can go  (2005-07-17)
   http://python.org/sf/1239948  closed by  jackjansen

non-admin install may fail (win xp pro)  (2005-07-05)
   http://python.org/sf/1232947  closed by  loewis

segfault in os module  (2005-06-24)
   http://python.org/sf/1226969  closed by  loewis

LINKCC incorrect

Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
[Brett]
> I can compromise to this if others prefer this alternative.  Anybody
> else have an opinion?

We're not opinion shopping -- we're looking for analysis.  Py3.0 is not
supposed to just a Python variant -- it is supposed to be better.  It is
not about making compromises -- it is about only making changes that are
clear improvements.  First, do no harm.

It is an abuse of the PEP process to toss up one random idea after
another with whimsical justifications, zero research, zero analysis of
the implications, no respect for existing code, no recognition that the
current design is somewhat successful, and contravention of basic design
principles (Zen of Python).

The only thing worse is wasting everyone's time by sticking to the
proposals like glue when others take the time to think it through and
offer sound reasons why the proposal is not a good idea.



[Aahz]
> Googling for "windowserror python" produces 800 hits.  So yes, it does
> seem to be widely used.  I'm -0 on renaming; +1 on leaving things
as-is.

Well said.  Squirreling WindowsError away in another namespace harms
existing code, reduces clarity, and offers no offsetting gains.  It is
simply crummy design to take a multi-module, multi-application exception
and push it down into a module namespace.

+0 on renaming; +1 on leaving as-is.


Raymond

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Re: [Python-Dev] Exception Reorg PEP revised yet again

2005-08-10 Thread Raymond Hettinger
>  There
> is a reason you listed writing a PEP on your own on the "School of
> Hard Knocks" list; it isn't easy.  I am trying my best here.

Hang in there.  Do what you can to make sure we get a result we can live
with.


-- R

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