Re: [Python-Dev] Python-acceleration instructions on ARM

[Martin v. Löwis]

> - fast instance variables: likewise, with R10 holding the this
>   pointer. Not applicable to Python, since there is no byte code
>   for instance variable access.

Follow-up: this could be used to JIT LOAD_CONST efficiently, though,
putting co_consts into R10.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-acceleration instructions on ARM

[Martin v. Löwis]

> ARM is specifically claiming that these instructions can be used to
> accelerate Python interpretation.
> 
> 
> Wow, really? One of the links below mention that?

I'm skeptical though that you can really produce speedups for CPython,
though; ISTM that they added Python only as a front-end language for
Parrot, and added Parrot only because it looks similar to JVM and .NET
(i.e. without actually testing that you can gain performance).

>From reading the paper, ISTM that you *can* expect speedups for your
JIT-generated code. In ThumbEE, you have the following additional
features:

- fast null pointer checks: any register-indirect addressing in ThumbEE
  mode checks whether the base register is NULL; if it is, a callback
  is invoked (which could then throw NullPointerException). This is
  irrelevant in Python, because we don't use NULL as the value for "no
  object"
- fast array bounds check: there is an instruction that checks
  whether 0 <= Rm <= Rn, and invokes a callback if it's not; this
  would then throw ArrayOutOfBoundsException. This instruction would
  be emitted by JIT just before any array access. In Python, you cannot
  easily JIT array access into a direct machine instruction (as you
  need to go through tp_as_sequence->sq_item); the array bounds check
  would likely disappear in white noise.
- fast switch instruction: there is an efficient way to switch 256
  different byte code operations, with an optional immediate parameter.
  It will call/jump to 256 byte code handlers. This allows for a
  straight-forward JIT compiler which essentially compiles all byte
  codes into such switch instructions. That would work for Python as
  well, but require that ceval gets rewritten entirely.
- fast locals: efficient access to a local-variables array, for
  JIT generation of ldloc.i4 (in .NET, not sure what the Java
  byte code for local variables is). Would work as well for Python,
  assuming there is a JIT compiler in the first place. R9 holds
  the fastlocals pointer (which is good use of the register, since
  you cannot access it in Thumb mode, anyway)
- fast instance variables: likewise, with R10 holding the this
  pointer. Not applicable to Python, since there is no byte code
  for instance variable access.
- efficient array indexing: they give shift-and-index back to
  Thumb mode, for a shift by 2, allowing to index arrays with
  4-byte elements in a single instruction (rather than requiring
  a separate multipy-by-four). Again useful for JIT of array
  access instructions, not applicable to Python - although it
  would be nice if the C compiler knew how to emit that.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> Adding/assigning to me on 2to3 bugs is fine, but usually I notice
> stuff I'm interested in as it rises to the top.

Done, found a couple more. There are also some -3 warnings open, if
that interests you :)

Thanks for the support, I only saw it was a +10 now :D

Cheers,
Daniel
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Tarek Ziadé wrote:
> I'll take Distutils related issues,

Done. Since Akira Kitada is helping with many distutils issues, I'll
skip looking at them for now. Ping me if you need tests or simple
patches :)

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Brett Cannon wrote:
> Warnings and import for me.

Done. Tomorrow I'll see what I can triage/test in those.

>> Talking about Bug Days, I see lots of easy bugs, some with outdated
>> patches. Is there any plan of doing a Bug Day around PyCon time?
>
> Well, the sprints at PyCon are Bug Days themselves really, although they 
> happen during the week so that tends to cause problems. As of right now there 
> are no plans but someone can obviously plan one if they feel up for it.

OK, sometime later I'll try to flag Easy bugs, then.

Daniel
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bug tracker house cleaning.

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Hi Raymond,
Thanks a lot for the feedback. I actually am more than a bit concerned
about the effect of my wholesale edits on the signal to noise ration.
Any clarifications are most welcome (and I'm open to change methods
and immediate goals) :)

Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> ISTM, that when closing duplicate bug reports, both should reference one 
> another so that the combined threads don't get lost.

I agree, sorry for not doing it in issue 1820[1]. I will revise the
recently closed bugs to see if I can correct cases where this didn't
happen.

> Also, assigning bugs to people who haven't asked to handle them doesn't seem 
> like it is actually cleaning-up anything.

That was not the goal at all, so any instance in which it did happen
was a mistake. I won't change these unless I was responsible for
wrongfully assigning, but I will look back at all my edits to clean up
such errors.

I've added you as nosy for 2308, the duplicate of 1820, before closing
it. Sorry about the inconvenience,  as you said "both [issues] should
reference one another" is the way to go.

> If something is assigned to someone, I usually assume they intend to work on 
> it at some point.  In contrast, unassigned means that no one is currently 
> handling it.

Fair enough, but in most (hopefully all) cases I only assigned bugs to
people that requested so, in the "Tracker archeology" thread. Tomorrow
I intend to follow up with confirmations/tests/patches for as many of
these issues as I can, so in the short term these bugs will receive
some attention.

> Just thought I would toss this out since the status of so many bugs/patches 
> is being updated today.

I really appreciate that. I'll keep your suggestions in mind and try
to improve my edits.

Best regards,
Daniel

[1] http://bugs.python.org/issue1820
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Re: [Python-Dev] Daily documentation builds

[Neal Norwitz]

I ran 2.6, 3.0, and 3.1 manually.  2.7 should get picked up on the
next run.  The problem is that regrtest.py -R hangs from time to time
which caused the machine to run out of memory.  Does anyone else have
regrtest.py -R hang for them?  Some tests were disabled to try to
prevent the problem, but it still happens from time to time.

n

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Raymond Hettinger  wrote:
> The online development docs stopped their nightly rebuilds four days ago.
>
>
> Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bug tracker house cleaning.

[Guido van Rossum]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Raymond Hettinger  wrote:
> ISTM, that when closing duplicate bug reports, both should reference one
> another so that the combined threads don't get lost.

This suggest a feature request (which Google's internal tracker has):
when a bug is closed as Duplicate, indeed both bugs are linked
together, and the people subscribed to both lists are CC'ed on the
email, *and* the CC lists are merged (into the bug that remains open).

> Also, assigning bugs to people who haven't asked to handle them doesn't seem
> like it is actually cleaning-up anything.  If something is assigned to
> someone, I usually assume they intend to work on it at some point.  In
> contrast, unassigned means that no one is currently handling it.

Agreed for people who haven't asked. Some folks specifically said
"please assign bugs of certain types to me". That implies to me a
promise to at least do triage and unassign if they know they won't
handle it -- so in that case (and that case only) it seems fine. There
are also a few bug categories that auto-assign -- this implies the
same to me.

> Just thought I would toss this out since the status of so many bugs/patches
> is being updated today.

-- 
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[Python-Dev] Bug tracker house cleaning.

[Raymond Hettinger]

ISTM, that when closing duplicate bug reports, both should reference one 
another so that the combined threads don't get lost.

Also, assigning bugs to people who haven't asked to handle them doesn't seem like it is actually cleaning-up anything.  If something 
is assigned to someone, I usually assume they intend to work on it at some point.  In contrast, unassigned means that no one is 
currently handling it.


Just thought I would toss this out since the status of so many bugs/patches is 
being updated today.


Raymond 


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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-acceleration instructions on ARM

[Benjamin M. Schwartz]

Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 18:45, Benjamin Schwartz
> wrote:
> 
...
>> According to ARM [4]:
>>
>> """Jazelle RCT can be used to significantly reduce the code bloat
>> associated
>> with AOT and JIT compilation, making AOT technology viable on mass-market
>> devices. It can also be used to support execution environments beyond Java,
>> such as Microsoft .NET Compact Framework, Python and others."""
>>
>> """Jazelle RCT provides an excellent target for any run-time compilation
>> technology, including JIT and AOT for .NET MSIL, Python and Perl as well as
>> Java. ARM is working with leading software providers to enable solutions
>> ready for market with Jazelle RCT."""
...
>> Question:
>> ARM is specifically claiming that these instructions can be used to
>> accelerate Python interpretation.
> 
> Wow, really? One of the links below mention that?

Yes.  The quotes above from [4], as well as the white paper [6].  No
specific data, just these broad claims.

>> What would the process be to incorporate the use of ThumbEE instructions
>> into CPython?
>>
> 
> Well, this all depends on how you try to integrate the instructions. If you
> hide it behind the macro or in a clean way that does not penalize skipping
> the instructions then you write a patch. But if this can't be done it would
> be better to maintain an external set of patches against trunk for this.

Interesting.  Sugar Labs will probably not attempt this if we would have
to maintain a patched interpreter forever.  However, I hope it will be
possible to integrate into CPython in a manner that does not uglify the
code or affect other architectures.

Anyone else interested in ARM?  ThumbEE support would benefit anyone
running Python on recent ARM chips.  Maybe we need to create a working
group/project team/whatever.

>> [4] http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/java/jazelle_architecture.html
>> [6] http://www.arm.com/pdfs/JazelleRCTWhitePaper_final1-0_.pdf



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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-acceleration instructions on ARM

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 18:45, Benjamin Schwartz
wrote:

>
> Dear Python developers,
>
> Introduction:
> I am writing from the perspective of Sugar Labs [1], which produces Sugar,
> a
> free software project written almost entirely in Python.  Sugar is designed
> to run on small, resource-constrained computers.  So far those computers
> have been mostly x86, but it seems likely to me that we will soon want to
> run on ARM as well, with the new wave of small ARM laptops [2].  These
> laptops are likely to run on some variant of the ARM Cortex-A8 CPU core.
>
> The Cortex-A8 chips all contain a set of commands known as ThumbEE or
> Jazelle RCT (Runtime Compilation Target) [3].  According to ARM [4]:
>
> """Jazelle RCT can be used to significantly reduce the code bloat
> associated
> with AOT and JIT compilation, making AOT technology viable on mass-market
> devices. It can also be used to support execution environments beyond Java,
> such as Microsoft .NET Compact Framework, Python and others."""
>
> """Jazelle RCT provides an excellent target for any run-time compilation
> technology, including JIT and AOT for .NET MSIL, Python and Perl as well as
> Java. ARM is working with leading software providers to enable solutions
> ready for market with Jazelle RCT."""
>
> The Jazelle RCT system consists of 12 assembly instructions, documented at
> [5] and [6].
>
> Question:
> ARM is specifically claiming that these instructions can be used to
> accelerate Python interpretation.


Wow, really? One of the links below mention that?


>  Is there any interpreter code, in CPython
> or elsewhere, that uses ThumbEE mode?


Nope.


>  Is there anyone working on this?


Not that has contacted us.


>
> What would the process be to incorporate the use of ThumbEE instructions
> into CPython?
>

Well, this all depends on how you try to integrate the instructions. If you
hide it behind the macro or in a clean way that does not penalize skipping
the instructions then you write a patch. But if this can't be done it would
be better to maintain an external set of patches against trunk for this.
This might be pushed anyway as we have slowly been shying away from
platform/CPU-specific code being in the trunk, especially when it does not
come from someone who has been a Python core developer for several years.

-Brett


> The whitepaper mentions the Parrot interpreter specifically, but I cannot
> find any indication that anyone is actually working on Jazelle RCT support
> in Parrot.
>
> Thank you,
> Ben Schwartz
>
> [1] http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page
> [2]
>
> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/09/pegatron-and-freescale-team-for-low-power-ultra-cheap-netbooks/
> [3]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Thumb_Execution_Environment_.28ThumbEE.29
> [4] http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/java/jazelle_architecture.html
> [5]
> http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/com.arm.doc.dui0379a/CIHBCDGA.html
> [6] http://www.arm.com/pdfs/JazelleRCTWhitePaper_final1-0_.pdf
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Python-acceleration-instructions-on-ARM-tp21947336p21947336.html
> Sent from the Python - python-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[Python-Dev] Python-acceleration instructions on ARM

[Benjamin Schwartz]

Dear Python developers,

Introduction:
I am writing from the perspective of Sugar Labs [1], which produces Sugar, a
free software project written almost entirely in Python.  Sugar is designed
to run on small, resource-constrained computers.  So far those computers
have been mostly x86, but it seems likely to me that we will soon want to
run on ARM as well, with the new wave of small ARM laptops [2].  These
laptops are likely to run on some variant of the ARM Cortex-A8 CPU core.

The Cortex-A8 chips all contain a set of commands known as ThumbEE or
Jazelle RCT (Runtime Compilation Target) [3].  According to ARM [4]:

"""Jazelle RCT can be used to significantly reduce the code bloat associated
with AOT and JIT compilation, making AOT technology viable on mass-market
devices. It can also be used to support execution environments beyond Java,
such as Microsoft .NET Compact Framework, Python and others."""

"""Jazelle RCT provides an excellent target for any run-time compilation
technology, including JIT and AOT for .NET MSIL, Python and Perl as well as
Java. ARM is working with leading software providers to enable solutions
ready for market with Jazelle RCT."""

The Jazelle RCT system consists of 12 assembly instructions, documented at
[5] and [6].

Question:
ARM is specifically claiming that these instructions can be used to
accelerate Python interpretation.  Is there any interpreter code, in CPython
or elsewhere, that uses ThumbEE mode?  Is there anyone working on this? 
What would the process be to incorporate the use of ThumbEE instructions
into CPython?

The whitepaper mentions the Parrot interpreter specifically, but I cannot
find any indication that anyone is actually working on Jazelle RCT support
in Parrot.

Thank you,
Ben Schwartz

[1] http://sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page
[2]
http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/09/pegatron-and-freescale-team-for-low-power-ultra-cheap-netbooks/
[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Thumb_Execution_Environment_.28ThumbEE.29
[4] http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/java/jazelle_architecture.html
[5] http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/com.arm.doc.dui0379a/CIHBCDGA.html
[6] http://www.arm.com/pdfs/JazelleRCTWhitePaper_final1-0_.pdf
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Python-acceleration-instructions-on-ARM-tp21947336p21947336.html
Sent from the Python - python-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Stephen Thorne]

On 2009-02-10, Tarek Ziadé wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:
> 
> >
> > If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> > bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.
> 
> I'll take Distutils related issues,

If you could look at a solution for http://bugs.python.org/issue1533164
I would be eternally grateful.

-- 
Regards,
Stephen Thorne
Development Engineer
NetBox Blue - 1300 737 060

NetBox Blue is proud to be a sponsor and exhibitor at IBM's Solutions 
Showcase 2009 events. These are held in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney and 
Melbourne in February and March. 
For more details and to register please visit: 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Brett Cannon wrote:
> OK, three enthusiastic votes to give them is plenty for me. You should have 
> the Developer role now, Daniel. Let me know if I screwed up at all in 
> switchng the role on for you.

Thanks a lot! Looks like it worked fine :)

Let me try the new thing, then: warnings and import for you, distutils
for Tarek, 2to3 (if any left) for Benjamin and Unicode for Ezio (and
patches for Antoine!).

If anyone else wants to claim or be added to dusty bugs, just give me a shout :)

Cheers,
Daniel
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 10:20PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> [Cesare Di Mauro]
>> I'm playing with the virtual machine and I have some ideas about
>> possibile
>> optimizations that could be applyed. But I need to verify them, so
>> understanding what is possible and what is not, is a primary goal for
>> me.
>
> The best way to understand what is possible is to disassemble bytecode
> and the look at *exactly* how those are executed by ceval.c.  That makes
> it possible to identify which transformations are semantically neutral.

I've already done it, but ceval.c isn't enough. It makes use of external
functions to do some works, like PyObject_RichCompare, for example. So
I've asked some information here.

> FWIW, I think the path of peephole optimizing been mostly exhausted.

I think so too, but there's room for a few optimizations (introducing some
new opcodes).

> A much more fertile field of search is to examine what can be done with
> the AST.  Sections of the tree may provide more context so that a broader
> range of simplifications and transformations are possible.

I completely agree.

> This should discussion probably be taken off python-dev and moved to
> to comp.lang.python until the exercise has grown beyond "playing with
> the virtual machine."
>
> Raymond

I've already rewritten ceval.c, opcode.h and some other files of Python
2.6.1 to implement my ideas. I think it's a little bit beyond "playing"
with the VM, and I hope to present my work to the next PyCon at Florence,
in Italy, if my paper will be accepted.

Now I'm trying to understand how compiler.c works, to fit in my changes (I
took a look at peephole.c, and it'll be easier, fortunately, but I'll do
it later).

It's not easy for me, since I'm alone, I'm working to a code which is not
mine, and a bit complicated too.

But if you think that this mailing list is not the correct place to ask
for, I'll move to comp.lang.python, as you have suggested.

Thanks,
Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Tarek Ziadé]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:

>
> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.

I'll take Distutils related issues,

Thank you

Tarek
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 05:23, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:

> [SNIP]
> Iff this kind of Bug-Day-ish work is desirable, doesn't disrupt real
> work and people agree the workflow would be better, I'd like to have
> developer rights in the tracker, as per Antoine's suggestion. FWIW, I
> have no problem with the current situation.
>

OK, three enthusiastic votes to give them is plenty for me. You should have
the Developer role now, Daniel. Let me know if I screwed up at all in
switchng the role on for you.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Raymond Hettinger]

[Cesare Di Mauro]

I'm playing with the virtual machine and I have some ideas about possibile
optimizations that could be applyed. But I need to verify them, so
understanding what is possible and what is not, is a primary goal for me.


The best way to understand what is possible is to disassemble bytecode
and the look at *exactly* how those are executed by ceval.c.  That makes
it possible to identify which transformations are semantically neutral.

FWIW, I think the path of peephole optimizing been mostly exhausted.
A much more fertile field of search is to examine what can be done with
the AST.  Sections of the tree may provide more context so that a broader
range of simplifications and transformations are possible.

This should discussion probably be taken off python-dev and moved to 
to comp.lang.python until the exercise has grown beyond "playing with

the virtual machine."

Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Dino Viehland]

I think it's comparing based upon object identity so it may be a little 
non-deterministic:

>>> x= 1e66
>>> y = x/x
>>> z = x/x
>>> cmp(y, z)
1
>>> cmp(z, y)
-1
>>>

But I may have accidently run that on IronPython though where we're assigning 
ids differently :)

-Original Message-
From: Cesare Di Mauro [mailto:cesare.dima...@a-tono.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:12 PM
To: Dino Viehland
Cc: Daniel Stutzbach; cesare.dima...@a-tono.com; Python-Dev
Subject: RE: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

It's bizarre enough, since I have got a different result (with Python
2.6.1, 32 bit):

>>> x = 1e6
>>> y = x/x
>>> x
inf
>>> y
nan
>>> cmp(y, y)
0
>>> cmp(x/x, x/x)
1

:D

Cesare

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 10:02PM, Dino Viehland wrote:
> And slightly unrelated, but just showing how bizarre floats are:
>
 x = 1e6
 y = x/x
 cmp(y, y)
> 0
 cmp(x/x, x/x)
> -1
>
> Yeah object identity checks!
>
> From: python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org
> [mailto:python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org] On Behalf Of
> Daniel Stutzbach
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: cesare.dima...@a-tono.com
> Cc: Python-Dev
> Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Cesare Di Mauro
>  wrote:
> OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.
>
> Yes, but even there you have to be careful of odd corner-cases, such as:
>
 nan = float('nan')
 nan < nan
> False
 nan >= nan
> False
> --
> Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
> President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC
>


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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

It's bizarre enough, since I have got a different result (with Python
2.6.1, 32 bit):

>>> x = 1e6
>>> y = x/x
>>> x
inf
>>> y
nan
>>> cmp(y, y)
0
>>> cmp(x/x, x/x)
1

:D

Cesare

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 10:02PM, Dino Viehland wrote:
> And slightly unrelated, but just showing how bizarre floats are:
>
 x = 1e6
 y = x/x
 cmp(y, y)
> 0
 cmp(x/x, x/x)
> -1
>
> Yeah object identity checks!
>
> From: python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org
> [mailto:python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org] On Behalf Of
> Daniel Stutzbach
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: cesare.dima...@a-tono.com
> Cc: Python-Dev
> Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Cesare Di Mauro
>  wrote:
> OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.
>
> Yes, but even there you have to be careful of odd corner-cases, such as:
>
 nan = float('nan')
 nan < nan
> False
 nan >= nan
> False
> --
> Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
> President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC
>

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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Dino Viehland]

And slightly unrelated, but just showing how bizarre floats are:

>>> x = 1e6
>>> y = x/x
>>> cmp(y, y)
0
>>> cmp(x/x, x/x)
-1

Yeah object identity checks!

From: python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org 
[mailto:python-dev-bounces+dinov=microsoft@python.org] On Behalf Of Daniel 
Stutzbach
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:43 PM
To: cesare.dima...@a-tono.com
Cc: Python-Dev
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Cesare Di Mauro  
wrote:
OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.

Yes, but even there you have to be careful of odd corner-cases, such as:

>>> nan = float('nan')
>>> nan < nan
False
>>> nan >= nan
False
--
Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 09:42PM, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Cesare Di Mauro
> wrote:
>
>> OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.
>>
>
> Yes, but even there you have to be careful of odd corner-cases, such as:
>
 nan = float('nan')
 nan < nan
> False
 nan >= nan
> False

Ah, I missed it. OK, and the same apply for decimals, I suppose.

Thanks
Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 08:15 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Cesare Di Mauro" 
> To: "Python-Dev" 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:24 AM
> Subject: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations
>
>
>> In peephole.c I noticed some expression optimizations:
>>
>> /* not a is b -->  a is not b
>>not a in b -->  a not in b
>>not a is not b -->  a is b
>>not a not in b -->  a in b
>> */
>>
>> So, it seems that an operation can be changed to another one which is
>> logically equivalent.
>>
>> Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:
>>
>>  c = not(a < b)
>>
>> the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes
>> instructions which, instead, execute the following operation:
>>
>>  c = a >= b
>>
>> Is it right?
>
> We've only done conservative transformations that do not change which
> magic methods get called.  The is / isnot transformations are
> invisible to the programmer and always semantically neutral.

OK, and the same apply to the "in" operator, if I have understood
correctly the other messages.

> Your
> proposed transformation is changes which methods get called and
> makes assumptions that the usual relationships between comparison
> operators holds (but it might not given rich comparisons, for
> example, sets use the comparison operators for subset/superset tests).
>

Raymond, I'm not proposing any changes to the language.

I'm playing with the virtual machine and I have some ideas about possibile
optimizations that could be applyed. But I need to verify them, so
understanding what is possible and what is not, is a primary goal for me.
;)

Thanks for you patience
Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 06:24 PM, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Steve Holden 
> wrote:
>
>> That's true, but the same *could* be said about the existing
>> optimizations for objects that define their own __contains__.
>>
>
> No, because there isn't a __not_contains__, so you cannot define the
> inverse
> operation differently.  "not a in b" and "a not in b" have exactly the
> same
> effects.
>

Interesting. So at least for "is" and "in" operators it is possible to
play with the "not" operator.

Thanks
Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Daniel Stutzbach]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Cesare Di Mauro
wrote:

> OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.
>

Yes, but even there you have to be careful of odd corner-cases, such as:

>>> nan = float('nan')
>>> nan < nan
False
>>> nan >= nan
False

--
Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

On Mar, Feb 10, 2009 at 05:38 PM, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Cesare Di Mauro
> > wrote:
>
>> Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:
>>  c = not(a < b)
>> the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes
>> instructions
>> which, instead, execute the following operation:
>>  c = a >= b
>>
>
> Those two expressions are equivalent for integers, but not necessarily
> equivalent for objects that define their own comparison operator.

OK, so I can make assumptions only for built-in types.

Thank you

Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:
> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.

Adding/assigning to me on 2to3 bugs is fine, but usually I notice
stuff I'm interested in as it rises to the top.

> Iff this kind of Bug-Day-ish work is desirable, doesn't disrupt real
> work and people agree the workflow would be better, I'd like to have
> developer rights in the tracker, as per Antoine's suggestion. FWIW, I
> have no problem with the current situation.

+10 for tracker access for you. This is the kind of work is something
I think everybody has on their lists and really needs some TLC. Thank
you!



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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[Python-Dev] Daily documentation builds

[Raymond Hettinger]

The online development docs stopped their nightly rebuilds four days ago.


Raymond
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Raymond Hettinger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Cesare Di Mauro" 

To: "Python-Dev" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations



In peephole.c I noticed some expression optimizations:

/* not a is b -->  a is not b
   not a in b -->  a not in b
   not a is not b -->  a is b
   not a not in b -->  a in b
*/

So, it seems that an operation can be changed to another one which is logically 
equivalent.

Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:

 c = not(a < b)

the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes instructions 
which, instead, execute the following operation:

 c = a >= b

Is it right?


We've only done conservative transformations that do not change which magic methods get called.  The is / isnot transformations are 
invisible to the programmer and always semantically neutral.  Your proposed transformation is changes which methods get called and 
makes assumptions that the usual relationships between comparison operators holds (but it might not given rich comparisons, for 
example, sets use the comparison operators for subset/superset tests).



Raymond 


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 05:23, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For the past two days I've been doing some housekeeping
> *cough*spamming*cough* on the tracker, mostly on ancient and/or easy
> bugs. So far, ten bugs have been closed (thanks Antoine, Barry,
> Benjamin, Guilherme, Martin and Raymond). I nominated some other bugs
> (below) for closing and added a few simple patches, with a couple more
> pending feedback.
>
> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.
>

Warnings and import for me.


>
> Iff this kind of Bug-Day-ish work is desirable, doesn't disrupt real
> work and people agree the workflow would be better, I'd like to have
> developer rights in the tracker, as per Antoine's suggestion. FWIW, I
> have no problem with the current situation.
>

It's been asked on python-committers; just have to wait for any potential
objections (really doubt there will be any, though).


>
> Talking about Bug Days, I see lots of easy bugs, some with outdated
> patches. Is there any plan of doing a Bug Day around PyCon time?
>

Well, the sprints at PyCon are Bug Days themselves really, although they
happen during the week so that tends to cause problems. As of right now
there are no plans but someone can obviously plan one if they feel up for
it.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Antoine Pitrou]

Steve Holden  holdenweb.com> writes:
> 
> That's true, but the same *could* be said about the existing
> optimizations for objects that define their own __contains__.

No, because there is no such thing as __not_contains__.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Steve Holden]

Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Steve Holden  > wrote:
> 
> That's true, but the same *could* be said about the existing
> optimizations for objects that define their own __contains__.
> 
> 
> No, because there isn't a __not_contains__, so you cannot define the
> inverse operation differently.  "not a in b" and "a not in b" have
> exactly the same effects.
> 
Ah, right, that guarantees semantic equivalence. Sorry.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Daniel Stutzbach]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Steve Holden  wrote:

> That's true, but the same *could* be said about the existing
> optimizations for objects that define their own __contains__.
>

No, because there isn't a __not_contains__, so you cannot define the inverse
operation differently.  "not a in b" and "a not in b" have exactly the same
effects.

--
Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Steve Holden]

Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Cesare Di Mauro
> mailto:cesare.dima...@a-tono.com>> wrote:
> 
> Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:
>  c = not(a < b)
> the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes
> instructions which, instead, execute the following operation:
>  c = a >= b
> 
> 
> Those two expressions are equivalent for integers, but not necessarily
> equivalent for objects that define their own comparison operator.
> 
That's true, but the same *could* be said about the existing
optimizations for objects that define their own __contains__.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Antoine Pitrou]

Cesare Di Mauro  a-tono.com> writes:
> Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:
> 
>   c = not(a < b)
> 
> the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes instructions
which, instead, execute the
> following operation:
> 
>   c = a >= b
> 
> Is it right?

No, it would be a bogus optimization:

>>> a = set([1])
>>> b = set([2])
>>> a < b
False
>>> a >= b
False

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Daniel Stutzbach]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Cesare Di Mauro  wrote:

> Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:
>  c = not(a < b)
> the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes instructions
> which, instead, execute the following operation:
>  c = a >= b
>

Those two expressions are equivalent for integers, but not necessarily
equivalent for objects that define their own comparison operator.

--
Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC 
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[Python-Dev] Expression optimizations

[Cesare Di Mauro]

In peephole.c I noticed some expression optimizations:

/* not a is b -->  a is not b
   not a in b -->  a not in b
   not a is not b -->  a is b
   not a not in b -->  a in b
*/

So, it seems that an operation can be changed to another one which is logically 
equivalent.

Could it be applyable to other operations as well? So, if I wrote:

  c = not(a < b)

the compiler and/or peephole optimizer can generate bytecodes instructions 
which, instead, execute the following operation:

  c = a >= b

Is it right?

Thanks a lot
Cesare
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Mark Dickinson]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:
> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.

Feel free to assign anything math-related (math and cmath modules,
float and complex objects) to me.

Thanks for this!

Mark
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Guido van Rossum]

Thanks Daniel! This kind of work is never fun but very much needed and
I'm very glad you did it. A round of applause!!

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Daniel (ajax) Diniz  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> For the past two days I've been doing some housekeeping
> *cough*spamming*cough* on the tracker, mostly on ancient and/or easy
> bugs. So far, ten bugs have been closed (thanks Antoine, Barry,
> Benjamin, Guilherme, Martin and Raymond). I nominated some other bugs
> (below) for closing and added a few simple patches, with a couple more
> pending feedback.
>
> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.
>
> Iff this kind of Bug-Day-ish work is desirable, doesn't disrupt real
> work and people agree the workflow would be better, I'd like to have
> developer rights in the tracker, as per Antoine's suggestion. FWIW, I
> have no problem with the current situation.
>
> Talking about Bug Days, I see lots of easy bugs, some with outdated
> patches. Is there any plan of doing a Bug Day around PyCon time?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
> Bugs nominated for express closing:
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1103926 email.base64MIME.header_encode vs RFC 1522
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue727898 Support for sending multipart form data
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue713169 test_pty fails on HP-UX and AIX
> when run after test_openpty
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue816059 popen2 work, fixes bugs 768649 and 761888
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1911 webbrowser.open firefox 3 issues
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1170065 HTTPResponse.getheaders() returns
> lowercased header names
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1175686 add "reload" function
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue779191 BasicModuleLoader behaviour in Python 2.3c2
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1327971 HTTPResponse instance has no
> attribute 'fileno'
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-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Facundo Batista]

2009/2/10 Daniel (ajax) Diniz :

> If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
> bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.

Anything related to Decimal, add me.

Thanks!

-- 
.Facundo

Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/
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[Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

[Daniel (ajax) Diniz]

Hi all,

For the past two days I've been doing some housekeeping
*cough*spamming*cough* on the tracker, mostly on ancient and/or easy
bugs. So far, ten bugs have been closed (thanks Antoine, Barry,
Benjamin, Guilherme, Martin and Raymond). I nominated some other bugs
(below) for closing and added a few simple patches, with a couple more
pending feedback.

If anyone is interested in being added as nosy for any category of
bugs, let me know and I'll do that as I scan the tracker.

Iff this kind of Bug-Day-ish work is desirable, doesn't disrupt real
work and people agree the workflow would be better, I'd like to have
developer rights in the tracker, as per Antoine's suggestion. FWIW, I
have no problem with the current situation.

Talking about Bug Days, I see lots of easy bugs, some with outdated
patches. Is there any plan of doing a Bug Day around PyCon time?

Best regards,
Daniel

Bugs nominated for express closing:

http://bugs.python.org/issue1103926 email.base64MIME.header_encode vs RFC 1522

http://bugs.python.org/issue727898 Support for sending multipart form data

http://bugs.python.org/issue713169 test_pty fails on HP-UX and AIX
when run after test_openpty

http://bugs.python.org/issue816059 popen2 work, fixes bugs 768649 and 761888

http://bugs.python.org/issue1911 webbrowser.open firefox 3 issues

http://bugs.python.org/issue1170065 HTTPResponse.getheaders() returns
lowercased header names

http://bugs.python.org/issue1175686 add "reload" function

http://bugs.python.org/issue779191 BasicModuleLoader behaviour in Python 2.3c2

http://bugs.python.org/issue1327971 HTTPResponse instance has no
attribute 'fileno'
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