Re: [Python-Dev] An example of Python 3 promotion attitude

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Oct 6, 2015 4:31 AM, "Maciej Fijalkowski"  wrote:
>
> There was a discussion a while ago about python 3 and the attitude on
> social media and there was a lack of examples. Here is one example:
>
>
https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/3nl5ut/ninite_the_popular_website_to_install_essential/
>
> According to some people, it is everybodys job to promote python 3 and
> force people to upgrade. This is really not something I enjoy (people
> telling me pypy should promote python 3 - it's not really our job).

I'm not a core dev so I don't really have a dog in this fight (except that
I do like python 3 the language), but: in the interests of having a more
productive discussion, can you elaborate on what specifically you found
frustrating about that link? It seems to be a page of people talking in a
measured way about the trade offs between python 2 and python 3. It looked
to me like probably the majority opinion expressed was that for the
poster's personal uses python 3 was superior for specific reasons that they
described, but people generally seemed very respectful and open to the
possibility that their experience wasn't universal. Your email had me
expecting something very different, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.

-n
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Re: [Python-Dev] An example of Python 3 promotion attitude

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 07:36 Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Oct 6, 2015 4:31 AM, "Maciej Fijalkowski"  wrote:
> >
> > There was a discussion a while ago about python 3 and the attitude on
> > social media and there was a lack of examples. Here is one example:
> >
> >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/3nl5ut/ninite_the_popular_website_to_install_essential/
> >
> > According to some people, it is everybodys job to promote python 3 and
> > force people to upgrade. This is really not something I enjoy (people
> > telling me pypy should promote python 3 - it's not really our job).
>
> I'm not a core dev so I don't really have a dog in this fight (except that
> I do like python 3 the language), but: in the interests of having a more
> productive discussion, can you elaborate on what specifically you found
> frustrating about that link? It seems to be a page of people talking in a
> measured way about the trade offs between python 2 and python 3. It looked
> to me like probably the majority opinion expressed was that for the
> poster's personal uses python 3 was superior for specific reasons that they
> described, but people generally seemed very respectful and open to the
> possibility that their experience wasn't universal. Your email had me
> expecting something very different, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
>

I'm in the same position as Nathaniel. I was expecting a flood of comments
yelling that not supporting Python 3 was horrible and they should be burned
at the stake for heresy or something. Instead I found very reasonable
responses to questions and only 2 people who went overboard, both of whom
admitted they were wrong when their arguments were shown to be extreme or
invalid. While I can imagine the kind of responses that Glyph was talking
about at the language summit I don't quite see how this is an example of
that.
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Re: [Python-Dev] An example of Python 3 promotion attitude

[Terry Reedy]

On 10/6/2015 7:29 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:

There was a discussion a while ago about python 3 and the attitude on
social media and there was a lack of examples. Here is one example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/3nl5ut/ninite_the_popular_website_to_install_essential/


I read this.  The proposition on the table for debate is

"Ninite -- the popular website to install essential programs at once -- 
should start offering Python 3 instead of Python 2"


The current situation (as of today) is that Ninite offers to install and 
update about 85 programs.  Among these is 'Python', which they translate 
as 2.7.10.


My first answer is that this makes their claim to keep people updated, 
"Always Up-to-Date", a lie because the most recent update to 'Python' is 
3.5.0.  I have no idea if they are editorially holding back updates to 
other programs or not.  In other words, the proposition was whether 
Ninite should do what they promise to do.


My second answer is that for Python, they should offer 'Python2' and 
'Python3'.  Many people said this also.



According to some people, it is everybodys job to promote python 3 and
force people to upgrade.


The discussion is about Ninite.  They claim that they install the most 
up to date version of each program users select and (forcibly, and 
silently) update everything when they *choose* to re-run it.  They are 
not doing that with Python.


Someone who emailed them reported back "they're considering it but 
holding off for now due to the fact that most people still use Py2."


To the extent that this is true, and it not in all contexts, it is 
partly because they are helping to keep it true by implicitly claiming 
that Python2 is Python and Python3 is not.


There was peripherally mention of a 4-year-document called LPTHW that 
recommends 2.  I have no idea what they are referring to.  There was 
also inconsequential mention of RHEL.


> This is really not something I enjoy (people

telling me pypy should promote python 3 - it's not really our job).


Pypy is not mentioned in the discussion you linked.  Your job is what 
you conceive it to be.  If you don't claim to support or promote the 
latest Python version, you have no obligation to do so.



Now I sometimes feel that there is not enough sentiment in python-dev
to distance from such ideas. It *is* python-dev job to promote
python3, but it's also python-dev job sometimes to point out that
whatever helps in promoting the python ecosystem (e.g. in case of pypy
is speed) is a good enough reason to do those things.


This is *your* idea of what *our* job is ;-).  I think our job *as 
python core developers* is to collectively produce the best new releases 
we can within the constraints of policies and resources.  That currently 
includes further releases of 2.7.  Each core dev interprets and augments 
the above for themselves.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] An example of Python 3 promotion attitude

[Ben Finney]

Terry Reedy  writes:

> There was peripherally mention of a 4-year-document called LPTHW that
> recommends 2. I have no idea what they are referring to.

It is expanded in passing, but for reference they are talking about
“Learn Python the Hard Way” , a
book which (reportedly) has not been updated since 2010.

-- 
 \   “Liberal capitalism is not at all the Good of humanity. Quite |
  `\the contrary; it is the vehicle of savage, destructive |
_o__) nihilism.” —Alain Badiou |
Ben Finney

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[Python-Dev] An example of Python 3 promotion attitude

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

There was a discussion a while ago about python 3 and the attitude on
social media and there was a lack of examples. Here is one example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/3nl5ut/ninite_the_popular_website_to_install_essential/

According to some people, it is everybodys job to promote python 3 and
force people to upgrade. This is really not something I enjoy (people
telling me pypy should promote python 3 - it's not really our job).

Now I sometimes feel that there is not enough sentiment in python-dev
to distance from such ideas. It *is* python-dev job to promote
python3, but it's also python-dev job sometimes to point out that
whatever helps in promoting the python ecosystem (e.g. in case of pypy
is speed) is a good enough reason to do those things.

I wonder what are other people ideas about that.

Cheers,
fijal
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