Re: [Python-Dev] GDB macros in Misc/gdbinit are broken

2017-02-27 Thread Skip Montanaro 
Alexander> I find them useful.  I've never had success with python-gdb.py.

As the original author, and occasional user (just in the last week or
two) I still find the current crude hack useful. I tried to get the
Python support in GDB working a couple years ago, but gave up in
frustration. I hope it's better now.

I added a comment to Alexander's bug report.

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] GDB macros in Misc/gdbinit are broken

2017-02-27 Thread Alexander Belopolsky 
On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Does someone still need gdbinit macros for gdb without python binding?
>

I find them useful.  I've never had success with python-gdb.py.
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Re: [Python-Dev] GDB macros in Misc/gdbinit are broken

2017-02-27 Thread Victor Stinner 
I suggest to remove them. I didn't use them since python-gdb.py exist.

Does someone still need gdbinit macros for gdb without python binding?

Victor

Le 28 févr. 2017 1:27 AM, "Alexander Belopolsky" <
alexander.belopol...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> I have opened an issue on b.p.o., [1] but I wonder whether Misc/gdbinit is
> still supported in 3.6.
>
> [1]: http://bugs.python.org/issue29673
>
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[Python-Dev] GDB macros in Misc/gdbinit are broken

2017-02-27 Thread Alexander Belopolsky 
I have opened an issue on b.p.o., [1] but I wonder whether Misc/gdbinit is
still supported in 3.6.

[1]: http://bugs.python.org/issue29673
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

2017-02-27 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-02-24 16:10 GMT+01:00 Steven D'Aprano :
>> …And then you need another one to
>> check what was written.  These are practical problems.  There are
>> extant services to support this, they are expensive in either money or
>> time, and the docs produced usually lag behind English quite a bit.
>
> Is this a good use for some PSF funding? Would companies be willing to
> invest money in translating Python documentation?
>
> Just because we're Open Source, doesn't mean that everything we do has
> to be purely volunteer.

IHMO translating the *whole* Python documentation at once by a
professional translator can be very expensive, no somthing that the
PSF would affort. Which language would you pick? Depending on what?

We already have motivated translators for free who only ask us for the
permission to make tiny changes to make their life simpler and make
the doc more visible. I'm in favor of allowing them to translate and
make the translated doc official ;-)

IMHO a better usage of the PSF funding would be to organize some local
sprints to translate the Python documentation. Such sprints are fun,
cheap, and can be a nice opportunity to recruit free and motivated
translators. We are looking for people involved to translate the doc
the doc is updated, not only translate the doc once and go away.
Right?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

2017-02-27 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-02-24 13:20 GMT+01:00 Berker Peksağ :
>> If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
>> displayed, not outdated text.
>
> I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
> any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
> can't understand the other half of it.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.

If I wouldn't be to read english at all, and I have the choice between
a doc partially translated and a doc written fully in english (current
docs.python.org), the obvious choice for me would be to pick the
partially translated doc. It's better than nothing. No?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

2017-02-27 Thread Victor Stinner 
2017-02-25 19:19 GMT+01:00 Brett Cannon :
> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this
> point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG
> (which probably needs to be created unless the old
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way
> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of
> python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.

Things are already happening in the background on other lists and
other Python projects, but the problem is that the translation project
seems "blocked" for some reasons. That's why I started the thread.

Example of a recent CPython PR, blocked:
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/195
"bpo-28331: fix "CPython implementation detail:" label is removed when
content is translated." opened 7 days ago by INADA Naoki (JP
translation)

Example of  a docsbuild PR:
https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/pull/8
"[WIP] Add french, japanese, and chinese", opened at 12 Dec 2016 by
Julien Palard (FR translation)

See also Julien Palard's threads on python-ideas: no decision was
taken, so the project is blocked.

According to this thread, there is an official GO for official
translations, so these PR should be merged, right?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

2017-02-27 Thread David Mertz 
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 11:30 PM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 27 February 2017 at 14:03, David Mertz  wrote:
>
>> Could we have side-by-side English and whatever translated language? Then
>> also use some sort of typographic indicator like color to show when the
>> translation is out of date?
>>
>
> This kind of interface is what services like Transifex and Zanata offer
> translators (they also have things like phrase dictionaries, showing how
> particular terms have been translated elsewhere in the project).
>
> For the actual documentation, showing partial translations is the standard
> practice, as the assumption is that many readers will have *some* ability
> to read English, they just prefer to read their native language.
>

I think it would be at least as useful for readers as for the translators.
As you mention, many readers will have *some* English.  If they can look
from the left half to the right half of the screen in synchronized texts
(or perhaps top/bottom; whatever), they can read the English as well as
they are able while simultaneously  reading as much of their preferred
language as is available.  If their preferred language is available but
possibly not current, they could decide whether to try to understand the
difference in the canonical English version.

I really liked this in books I've read.  There are a fair number of
languages other than English where I can make a little bit of sense of the
text (but sadly only the one in which I'm proficient).  Nonetheless, I like
looking at the original text next to the English that I actually understand
fully.  Admittedly this is especially nice for something like poetry where
you can read for meter on one side then content on the other... that's not
the same concern as technical documentation, I realize.  But even if only
as an option, I think it would be a valuable interface for many readers.



-- 
Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food
from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the
uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting
advocates of freedom in prisons.  Intellectual property is
to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
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