Re: [Python-Dev] Finding Guido's replacement

[Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev]

> fun fact: weirdly enough after BDFL1 took a vac (for life?), google made
> it's appearance on the mailing list
>

As the Googler who appeared on the mailing list, I can say this was just a
coincidence. I was a bit nervous no one would respond though, given Guido's
vacation :)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Question about PEP 484

[Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev]

Great Jelle! We look forward to working with you to.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 10:41 AM Jelle Zijlstra 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-07-17 9:55 GMT-07:00 Sebastian Rittau :
>
>> On 17.07.2018 17:05, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>> This is a good point. I presume specifying this unambiguously would be a
>>> huge amount of work, and it would mostly codify mypy's current behavior. I
>>> don't think that's within the scope of PEP 484, but it could well be done
>>> as a separate PEP (perhaps an informational one?). I hope you understand
>>> that I am not volunteering.
>>>
>> An informational PEP sounds about right to me. Such a PEP could also
>> include style recommendations like those from typeshed's CONTRIBUTING file (
>> https://github.com/python/typeshed/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md).
>>
>> I guess I just volunteered to help with such a PEP, although I feel that
>> someone from mypy's core team should take the lead on that. And if I
>> understood this thread correctly, the pytype team is also willing to help
>> out?
>
> I can also help out.
>
>>
>>
>>  - Sebastian
>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Question about PEP 484

[Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev]

Hi Sebastian,

Of course, we'd be happy to work with you on this!  We just need to figure
out which of us will drive this on our end (most likely Rebecca or Teddy).
I'll huddle with the team and get back to you with an answer on who later
today.



On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 9:58 AM Sebastian Rittau  wrote:

> On 17.07.2018 17:05, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > This is a good point. I presume specifying this unambiguously would be
> > a huge amount of work, and it would mostly codify mypy's current
> > behavior. I don't think that's within the scope of PEP 484, but it
> > could well be done as a separate PEP (perhaps an informational one?).
> > I hope you understand that I am not volunteering.
> An informational PEP sounds about right to me. Such a PEP could also
> include style recommendations like those from typeshed's CONTRIBUTING
> file (https://github.com/python/typeshed/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md).
>
> I guess I just volunteered to help with such a PEP, although I feel that
> someone from mypy's core team should take the lead on that. And if I
> understood this thread correctly, the pytype team is also willing to
> help out?
>
>   - Sebastian
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Question about PEP 484

[Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev]

Thanks Brett and Teddy,

Just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle as folks dive into details, I'll
re-ask my earlier question about stub files. Assuming there is consensus
that there is ambiguity to resolve in the current definition, is updating
the section on stub files the preferred option? The only alternative I can
think of is to pull this out into a separate PEP. I frankly have no opinion
on what the best way to capture this is. We're happy to help out either way.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 12:48 PM Teddy Sudol  wrote:

> Hi, my name is Teddy Sudol. I work with Adam and Rebecca on pytype.
>
> The explanation of stub files is unclear. The section you linked starts
> with, "Stub files are files containing type hints that are only for use by
> the type checker, not at runtime." According to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/#acceptable-type-hints, type
> hints may be classes, abstract base classes, types defined in the `types`
> and `typing` modules, type variables, type aliases and None. Further in the
> section you linked, PEP 484 also states, "Stub files have the same syntax
> as regular Python modules," and, "no runtime behavior should be expected of
> stub files."
>
> "Have the same syntax as regular Python modules" and "are files containing
> type hints" are at odds with each other. This has led to compatibility
> issues between Mypy and pytype. For example, `b''` is not a valid type
> annotation, but until a month ago, `codecs.pyi` in typeshed used exactly
> that:
> https://github.com/python/typeshed/commit/6bbf3d89eb9b6c3fd5b0c0f632b2ad9258cecf15#diff-5f6f48c425bc0c283784cf5277880c0cL95.
> If statements can be useful for things like version checks, but on the
> other hand, pyi files aren't supposed to have any runtime behavior.
> Additionally, codifying the syntax for pyi files would settle questions
> like whether constants should be typed using "x: " or "x = ...
> # type: ".
>
> We would like to see a clear statement about the syntax of stub files.
> Personally, I think they should be a subset of Python, but I'd also be
> happy with an EBNF grammar for them.
>
> -- Teddy
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:05 AM Brett Cannon  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 10:32 Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev <
>> python-dev@python.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Hi Folks,Cc: Rebecca, pytypeThis is Adam Cataldo; I’m the engineering
>>> manager for the Python team at Google. Rebecca Chen, our lead pytype
>>> <https://github.com/google/pytype> contributor, and I are interested in
>>> helping finalize PEP 484 if possible. To that end, we wanted to find out
>>> what technical issues the PEP 484 authors feel they still need to finalize.
>>> We also wanted to know how we can help.We have a large Python code base at
>>> Google, and may be able to use this to help resolve current incomplete
>>> definitions, by collecting data on how types are used. We also have a
>>> couple ambiguities that we’d love to get closure on: - One thing we care
>>> about in particular, given the implementation of pytype, is the detailed
>>> definition of what goes in a .pyi file. Do folks think this makes sense to
>>> include as part of PEP 484, or would this be better in a separate PEP? We’d
>>> love to get your thoughts.*
>>>
>>
>> What specifically do you want beyond
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/#stub-files?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * - The relationship between unicode and typing.Text in Python 2 has
>>> been a recurring source of confusion for our users. Especially since we
>>> contributed <https://github.com/python/peps/pull/302> to the current state
>>> of affairs, we’d like to figure out how to establish clarity here.Thoughts?*
>>>
>>
>> Do be aware, Adam, that due to Guido's retirement last week people might
>> be a bit preoccupied and so a little slow in responding. But then again
>> Guido just got a bit more free time so he might chime in on this one. ;)
>>
>> --
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pytype/CAP1%3D2W4NxcsSdsiMrh55KhjkwgD0PGRcZJF_Azq3g6QFQ2oiAw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer>
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
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[Python-Dev] Question about PEP 484

[Adam Cataldo via Python-Dev]

*Hi Folks,Cc: Rebecca, pytypeThis is Adam Cataldo; I’m the engineering
manager for the Python team at Google. Rebecca Chen, our lead pytype
 contributor, and I are interested in
helping finalize PEP 484 if possible. To that end, we wanted to find out
what technical issues the PEP 484 authors feel they still need to finalize.
We also wanted to know how we can help.We have a large Python code base at
Google, and may be able to use this to help resolve current incomplete
definitions, by collecting data on how types are used. We also have a
couple ambiguities that we’d love to get closure on: - One thing we care
about in particular, given the implementation of pytype, is the detailed
definition of what goes in a .pyi file. Do folks think this makes sense to
include as part of PEP 484, or would this be better in a separate PEP? We’d
love to get your thoughts.- The relationship between unicode and
typing.Text in Python 2 has been a recurring source of confusion for our
users. Especially since we contributed
 to the current state of affairs,
we’d like to figure out how to establish clarity here.Thoughts?Thanks,Adam*
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