Re: [Python-Dev] draft of patch guidelines
Brett, >> I think this is less accurate. Patches languish because of limited time >> *and* because newbies don't have any social capital w/in the Python >> community. New patch contributors are volunteers too, so they understand >> that constraint. Their big problem is their outsider status, to which >> the patch angels/5-for-1 system is an elegant solution. And that's what >> should be emphasized in this FAQ. > > But that makes us sound elitist. To be honest I took away the opposite lesson. New patch contributors acutely feel their outsider status; this is to be expected in any social system. The fact that there is a clear, established path for newcomers to follow -- the 5-for-1 rule -- is precisely what makes the Python community non-elitist in this instance. Transparent documentation on this point would further erode any elitism. chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] draft of patch guidelines
Brett, > When you submit your patch, the tracker notifies a mailing list that > most core Python developers subscribe to of the creation of your new > patch. Isn't "of the creation of your new patch" redundant? What else would it be notifying the list of? > Your patch may languish for weeks or more before anyone volunteers a > response because of limited time on the part of Python developers. I think this is less accurate. Patches languish because of limited time *and* because newbies don't have any social capital w/in the Python community. New patch contributors are volunteers too, so they understand that constraint. Their big problem is their outsider status, to which the patch angels/5-for-1 system is an elegant solution. And that's what should be emphasized in this FAQ. In other words, I still prefer my wording. But since I'm a newbie with little merit, I'll be content with whatever you decide. :) chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] draft of patch guidelines
Brett, >> I liked the "patch angel" term in Chad's version. Stating "a Python >> developer will take a look at your patch" smacks of a guarantee, >> while Chad's use of "patch angel" and "get the ball rolling" better >> conveyed the fact that this 5-for-1 rule is simply a practice of some >> of the volunteers. > > Eh, I still don't like the term. Too hokey. But I did toss in a > "try" to not make it sound like a guarantee. Yeah, kind of hokey. I included it because it's succinct and accurate, and because I assumed there's history to the term. Putting it in quotes helped w/ the goofiness, I thought. I believe Skip used the term: any comment, Skip? chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] draft of patch guidelines
Brett, > Below is a draft for a set of patch guidelines. Thanks for getting around to this! > Wait for a developer to contact you > === > > At this point you need to wait for a Python developer to come along > and look at your patch. This might be a while as all Python > developers are volunteers and thus have a limited amount of time. Do > not be surprised if it takes weeks or more before your patch is > examined. > > There is a standing offer that if you review five other patches (by > commenting on its correctness, helping it meet these guidelines, > etc.), then a developer will definitely have a look at any patch you > specify. Just email python-dev with what five patches you reviewed > (and what you did for the review) and the patch you want examined. May I suggest the following wording for this section? This is basically the feedback I found most helpful a few weeks ago; it's more specific about how notification and the 5-for-1 rule work. = When you submit your patch, the tracker notifies a mailing list that most core Python developers subscribe to. But remember that Open Source runs on volunteerism and meritocracy. If you are a new Python contributor, then your patch may languish for weeks or more before anyone volunteers a response. Python addresses this barrier to entry with a "5-for-1 rule." Pick five other patches or bugs, try to apply or reproduce them, and then report your results back to the tracker. Then, send a note to python-dev listing the five you reviewed and the patch id of your own patch, and one of Python's "patch angels" will get the ball rolling on your patch. = chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Patch submitted, now what?
Martin, Thanks for the reply. > I notice that my message comes across pretty negative. No worries. I'm a volunteer too. :) > It's a new feature, so it can't possibly get into Python 2.5. That means > that no action is likely taken before October. It might take years until > the patch gets considered. Helpful, thanks. > As Skip explains, I have a 5-for-1-rule for people who really want > to push their patches: If you review 5 patches, I will review yours Yeah, this hit the bulls-eye for me. The 5-for-1 rule is a great way to specify how newcomers can influence patch workflow w/o becoming spammers. [Brett: +1 on mentioning this in the updated Patch Guidelines] Watch for another post once I've found the time to volunteer to review 5 other patches. :) Thanks again, all! Consider my original questions answered. chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Patch submitted, now what?
Skip, > It's worth noting that a number of people will look at a patch after the > submitter has reviewed five other patches or bug reports Also helpful, thanks! chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Patch submitted, now what?
Brett, > "We" is most of the developers on python-dev. There is a Python patches > mailing list that most developers subscribe to. Helpful, thanks. > The latter unfortunatley. Since this all relies on people's volunteer > efforts the patch usually has to matter to someone to lead to them putting > the time and effort into getting it checked in. Hrm, ok, also good to know. So it sounds like I wait another week or so and then maybe approach some folks individually. chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Patch submitted, now what?
Brett, Thanks for the helpful reply. > Let it sit for now. We get email notifications when new patches come in. Can I ask who "we" are? Is that the seven SF "Project Admins?" Is that the 68 SF "Developers?" And is every patch eventually responded to? Or do some simply fall by the wayside? > Those docs needs to be overhauled. I am planning to consolidate into a > single patch guidelines doc in a month or so. Great! I'd be happy to review it when the time comes, if that'd be helpful. Thanks again. chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Patch submitted, now what?
Dear All, Last week I submitted a patch (my first), and now I'm wondering what my expectations should be. Do I sit around and wait? How long? Do I notify this list? Do I notify a specific person, say, an author or reviewer of the original code I modified? Do I use SF's assignment mechanism? Who do I assign it to? These are the questions I have, unanswered (afaict) by the patch documentation I've found: http://www.python.org/dev/patches/ http://www.python.org/dev/patches/style/ http://www.python.org/patches/ http://www.python.org/patches/style.html http://www.python.org/dev/tools/#patch-tracking Any insight? chad P.S. For the interested, here is my patch: "Expose case-insensitivity of string.Template" http://www.python.org/sf/1528167 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] AST manipulation and source code generation
Thanks Jeremy. Also wandered off-list w/ Ka-Ping; posting here for posterity. chad - chad: BTW, how does the concept of AST transformations relate to the concept of (Lisp) macros? Am I right to think that they are similar? ?!ng: Absolutely. In terms of mechanism, they're basically the same; the main difference is that in Lisp, the transformations are a part of the core language definition. ?!ng: Well, i should refine that a bit to say that the Lisp macro system is a little more specific. Whereas AST transformations in Python are open-ended (you could generate any result you want), the key interesting property of Lisp macros is that they are constrained to be "safe", in the sense that the bindings of variable names are always preserved. chad: Hmmm ... I don't follow python-dev closely but hasn't there been resistance to macros in Python? Are we saying macros may be a good idea after all? ?!ng: resistance -> Yes. ?!ng: good idea -> Not really. AST transformations are useful for experimenting with the language, but i don't think there is much enthusiasm for making these transformations a normal part of the way most programs are written. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] AST manipulation and source code generation
> Would there be any interest in extending the compiler package with tools > for AST transformations and for emitting Python source code from ASTs? Heh, so I guess the answer is "yes." BTW, how does the concept of AST transformations relate to the concept of (Lisp) macros? Am I right to think that they are similar? chad ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] AST manipulation and source code generation
Ka-Ping, FWIW, I've also got an implementation, which is based on the parser module rather than the compiler module. Much simpler, imo, but whitespace isn't preserved (could be perhaps?). Anyway, take it or leave it. Links follow. chad - Subversion repository: http://svn.zetadev.com/repos/public/ASTutils/ The relevant method is 'ast2text' in ASTutils.py: http://svn.zetadev.com/repos/public/ASTutils/tags/0.2.0/ASTutils.py API documentation for this method: http://www.zetadev.com/software/ASTutils/latest/api/public/ASTutils.ASTutils-class.html#ast2text API documentation root: http://www.zetadev.com/software/ASTutils/latest/api/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
