Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
Is there any issue with unit-at-a-time optimization? I would imagine that a static global would allow optimizations that are not safe for a exported global (not sure the C term for it). I suspect it doesn't matter and I support the idea in general. Global variables in extension modules kills the idea of a mark-and-sweap or some other GC mechanism. That's probably not going to happen but identifying all of the global state seems like a step forward. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 10:08, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 09:42:29 -0700 > > Benjamin Peterson wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I'm a bit concerned about > > > > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/ > 76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > > > > > > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > > > > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > > > > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example > seems > > > > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > > > > > > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > > > > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > > > > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. > > > > > > How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? > > > > Not very often, but if I want to experiment with some low-level > > implementation details, it is nice to avoid the hassle. > > It seems like this could be remediated with some inline functions or > macros, which would also help safely encapsulate state. > > > > > There's also a readability argument: with very long names, expressions > > can become less easy to parse. > > > > > If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to > > > fully consider the gravity of the situation. > > > > Right, I needed to be reminded of how perilous the use of C globals is. > > Perhaps I should contact the PSRT the next time I contemplate using a C > > global. > > It's not just you but future readers. Great. Related to this, there is also discussion on dangers of globals and other widely-scoped variables in the Rationale section of PEP 555 (Context-local variables), for anyone interested. But if you read the draft I posted on python-ideas last Monday, you've already seen it. ––Koos -- + Koos Zevenhoven + http://twitter.com/k7hoven + ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 10:08, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 09:42:29 -0700 > > Benjamin Peterson wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I'm a bit concerned about > > > > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc > 7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > > > > > > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > > > > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > > > > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example > seems > > > > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > > > > > > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > > > > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > > > > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. > > > > > > How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? > > > > Not very often, but if I want to experiment with some low-level > > implementation details, it is nice to avoid the hassle. > > It seems like this could be remediated with some inline functions or > macros, which would also help safely encapsulate state. > > > > > There's also a readability argument: with very long names, expressions > > can become less easy to parse. > > > > > If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to > > > fully consider the gravity of the situation. > > > > Right, I needed to be reminded of how perilous the use of C globals is. > > Perhaps I should contact the PSRT the next time I contemplate using a C > > global. > > It's not just you but future readers. Great. Related to this, there is also discussion on dangers of globals and other widely-scoped variables in the Rationale section of PEP 555 (Context-local variables), for anyone interested. But if you read the draft I posted on python-ideas last Monday, you've already seen it. ––Koos -- + Koos Zevenhoven + http://twitter.com/k7hoven + ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On 9/6/2017 1:18 PM, Gregory P. Smith wrote: I'm not concerned about moving things into a state structure rather than wildly scattered globals declared all over the place. It is good code hygiene. It ultimately moves us closer (much more work to be done) to being able to actually have multiple independent interpreters within the same process (including potentially even of different Python versions). For commonly typed things that get annoying, #define _Py_grail _PyRuntme.ceval.holy.grail within the .c source file that does a lot of grail flinging seems fine to me. -gps You just need a PEP 550 (or 555) to use instead of C globals. But why would you ever want multiple Python versions in one process? Sounds like a debug headache in the making. Name collisions would abound for libraries and functions even if globals were cured! ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 20:18:52 + "Gregory P. Smith" wrote: > > For commonly typed things that get annoying, > > #define _Py_grail _PyRuntme.ceval.holy.grail > > within the .c source file that does a lot of grail flinging seems fine to > me. That sounds fine to me too. Thank you! Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 10:26 AM Benjamin Peterson wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 10:08, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 09:42:29 -0700 > > Benjamin Peterson wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I'm a bit concerned about > > > > > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > > > > > > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > > > > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > > > > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example > seems > > > > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > > > > > > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > > > > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > > > > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. > > > > > > How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? > > > > Not very often, but if I want to experiment with some low-level > > implementation details, it is nice to avoid the hassle. > > It seems like this could be remediated with some inline functions or > macros, which would also help safely encapsulate state. > > > > > There's also a readability argument: with very long names, expressions > > can become less easy to parse. > > > > > If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to > > > fully consider the gravity of the situation. > > > > Right, I needed to be reminded of how perilous the use of C globals is. > > Perhaps I should contact the PSRT the next time I contemplate using a C > > global. > > It's not just you but future readers. > I'm not concerned about moving things into a state structure rather than wildly scattered globals declared all over the place. It is good code hygiene. It ultimately moves us closer (much more work to be done) to being able to actually have multiple independent interpreters within the same process (including potentially even of different Python versions). For commonly typed things that get annoying, #define _Py_grail _PyRuntme.ceval.holy.grail within the .c source file that does a lot of grail flinging seems fine to me. -gps ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 10:08, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 09:42:29 -0700 > Benjamin Peterson wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I'm a bit concerned about > > > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > > > > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > > > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > > > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example seems > > > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > > > > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > > > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > > > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. > > > > How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? > > Not very often, but if I want to experiment with some low-level > implementation details, it is nice to avoid the hassle. It seems like this could be remediated with some inline functions or macros, which would also help safely encapsulate state. > > There's also a readability argument: with very long names, expressions > can become less easy to parse. > > > If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to > > fully consider the gravity of the situation. > > Right, I needed to be reminded of how perilous the use of C globals is. > Perhaps I should contact the PSRT the next time I contemplate using a C > global. It's not just you but future readers. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 09:42:29 -0700 Benjamin Peterson wrote: > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I'm a bit concerned about > > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example seems > > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. > > How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? Not very often, but if I want to experiment with some low-level implementation details, it is nice to avoid the hassle. There's also a readability argument: with very long names, expressions can become less easy to parse. > If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to > fully consider the gravity of the situation. Right, I needed to be reminded of how perilous the use of C globals is. Perhaps I should contact the PSRT the next time I contemplate using a C global. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 03:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm a bit concerned about > https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 > > My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C > global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled > "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example seems > to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). > > Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become > that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying > to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. How often are you actually typing the names of runtime globals, though? If you are using a globals, perhaps the typing time will allow you to fully consider the gravity of the situation. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Consolidate stateful runtime globals
Hello, I'm a bit concerned about https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/76d5abc8684bac4f2fc7cccfe2cd940923357351 My main gripe is that makes writing C code more tedious. Simple C global variables such as "_once_registry" are now spelled "_PyRuntime.warnings.once_registry". The most egregious example seems to be "_PyRuntime.ceval.gil.locked" (used to be simply "gil_locked"). Granted, C is more verbose than Python, but it doesn't have to become that verbose. I don't know about you, but when code becomes annoying to type, I tend to try and take shortcuts. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
