Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Nick Coghlan]

On 13 June 2018 at 04:47, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:

> Backing up GitHub data has been brought up since the time we migrated to
> GitHub, and being tracked here: https://github.com/pytho
> n/core-workflow/issues/20
>
> TL;DR We'll be using GitHub's new Migrations API
>  to download archived
> GitHub data of CPython. Ernest is helping us get set up with daily backups
> of CPython repo to be stored within The PSF's infrastructure.
>

Nice!

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Mariatta Wijaya]

Backing up GitHub data has been brought up since the time we migrated to
GitHub, and being tracked here: https://github.com/pytho
n/core-workflow/issues/20

TL;DR We'll be using GitHub's new Migrations API
 to download archived
GitHub data of CPython. Ernest is helping us get set up with daily backups
of CPython repo to be stored within The PSF's infrastructure.

Mariatta

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via
> Python-Dev  wrote:
> > Any service could change or fail. Period.
> >
> > So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development
> > only in gitHub.
> >
> > I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it
> > sure seems like a good idea.
>
> There are two separate concerns here:
>
> 1) How do we get a full copy of all of CPython and its change history?
>
> 2) How do we get all the non-code content - issues, pull requests,
> comments?
>
> The first one is trivially easy. *Everyone* who has a clone of the
> repository [1] has a full copy of the code and all history, updated
> every time 'git pull' is run.
>
> The second one depends on GitHub's exporting facilities; but it also
> depends on a definition of what's important. Maybe the PSF doesn't
> care if people's comments at the bottoms of commits are lost (not to
> be confused with commit messages themselves, which are part of the
> repo proper), so it wouldn't matter if they're lost. Or maybe it's
> important to have the contents of such commits, but it's okay to
> credit them to an email address rather than linking to an actual
> username. Or whatever. Unlike with the code/history repo, an imperfect
> export is still of partial value.
>
> ChrisA
>
> [1] Barring shallow clones, but most people don't do those
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ᐧ
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via
Python-Dev  wrote:
> Any service could change or fail. Period.
>
> So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development
> only in gitHub.
>
> I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it
> sure seems like a good idea.

There are two separate concerns here:

1) How do we get a full copy of all of CPython and its change history?

2) How do we get all the non-code content - issues, pull requests, comments?

The first one is trivially easy. *Everyone* who has a clone of the
repository [1] has a full copy of the code and all history, updated
every time 'git pull' is run.

The second one depends on GitHub's exporting facilities; but it also
depends on a definition of what's important. Maybe the PSF doesn't
care if people's comments at the bottoms of commits are lost (not to
be confused with commit messages themselves, which are part of the
repo proper), so it wouldn't matter if they're lost. Or maybe it's
important to have the contents of such commits, but it's okay to
credit them to an email address rather than linking to an actual
username. Or whatever. Unlike with the code/history repo, an imperfect
export is still of partial value.

ChrisA

[1] Barring shallow clones, but most people don't do those
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via Python-Dev]

>  We shouldn't be uniquely or especially concerned just because
> Microsoft has purchased Github. Nothing has changed.

Exactly — but this change HAS made people think about an issue that we
should have already been thinking about.

At the end of the day, anyone, or any project, would be well served by
having a plan for potential loss of valuable data.

And the no brainer on that is : don’t have only one copy in one place.

That’s why my family photos are on my hard drive, and a backup drive,
and an online backup service.

My house could burn down, so I don’t want everything there. The backup
service could change its conditions, go out of business, or simply
have a technical failure — so I don’t want everything there, either.

Any service could change or fail. Period.

So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development
only in gitHub.

I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it
sure seems like a good idea.

-CHB
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 05:59:17PM -0700, Chris Jerdonek wrote:

> Is the “service” they provide (and what it needs) allowed to change over
> time, so that the rights granted can expand?

Of course it can change. And they might not even need to give us notice. 
But that's no different from any other service provider, including your 
ISP, your phone provider, your electricity provider, etc.

If we're to be concerned about changes to terms and conditions, we 
should be equally concerned about Google, Apple, Amazon, Red Hat, Oracle 
etc. We shouldn't be uniquely or especially concerned just because 
Microsoft has purchased Github. Nothing has changed.

Github (the old Github, before being sold) were not "the Good Guys", and 
Microsoft is not "the Bad Guys". Github were a commercial entity, run by 
venture capitalists only in it for the money, with a brogrammer culture 
that was (allegedly) highly toxic to women. If Github didn't try to make 
a grab for their users' content, it was because they made a commercial 
decision that stealing the IP for a thousand versions of "leftpad" for 
Node.js was not worth the harm they would do to their business, not 
because they're nice guys who wouldn't do that.

https://medium.com/@caspervonb/the-internet-is-at-the-mercy-of-a-handful-of-people-73fac4bc5068

I know that suspicion and fear of Microsoft's bona fides is a long 
running tradition in FOSS circles, but Microsoft is subject to the same 
sorts of commercial realities as any other corporation: there is a limit 
to how evil they can be for the LOLs and still stay in business. They 
are no more likely to grab users' content than Github were, and for 
the same reasons.

Actually, probably LESS likely. The sort of companies who are 
Microsoft's important customers, the ones with deep pockets willing to 
pay for services like Github's, are if anything even more cognisant of 
the value and importance of so-called Intellectual Property than the 
average FOSS user, and far more likely to be defensive over some hosting 
company trying to claim rights to their IP.

(Personally, I'm more concerned about MS trying to become another 
Google, profiling us -- all the better to sell our personal data -- by 
matching up our Github identies with everything we do on the internet. 
But again, that's not unique to Microsoft. Every second website, these 
days, wants to follow your every click and watch everything you do. But 
that's a rant for another day.)


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Chris Jerdonek]

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 7:03 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote:
>
> who owns the Data hosted on Github?
>
> Github Author?
> Microsoft?
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user-generated-content
> :
>
> "*You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so
> that we can display and share the content you post. You still have control
> over your content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you grant us
> are limited to those we need to provide the service.*
>

Is the “service” they provide (and what it needs) allowed to change over
time, so that the rights granted can expand? The definition of “service” in
their document is—


   1. The “Service” refers to the applications, software, products, and
   services provided by GitHub.

—Chris

* We have the right to remove content or close Accounts if we need to."*
>
>
> --
> *From:* Python-Dev 
>  on behalf of M.-A.
> Lemburg  
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM
> *To:* Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion
>
> Something that may change is the way they treat Github
> accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.
>
> But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab
> as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would
> worry too much.
>
> Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with
> the products they have, but with the data. Their databases
> know more about IT developer than anyone else and given
> that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell
> us something :-)
>
>
> On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> >
> > That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem.
> > For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote
> > (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve
> > integrations with other CI services?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Antoine.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700
> > Guido van Rossum   wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou 
>  wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200
> >>> Victor Stinner   wrote:
> 
>  At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that
>  it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big
>  company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that
>  nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about
>  anything.
> >>>
> >>> It does spell uncertainty on the long term.  While there is no need to
> >>> worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about
> >>> moving issues to Github.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had
> >> remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about
> how it
> >> would make enough money to stay in business.
> >>
> >
> > ___
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>
> --
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> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
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> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
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>
> --
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>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Alex Walters]

> -Original Message-
> From: Python-Dev  list=sdamon@python.org> On Behalf Of Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
> Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 10:01 PM
> To: python-dev@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b
> 
> On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote:
> who owns the Data hosted on Github?
> 
> Github Author?
> Microsoft?
> 
> Martin
> https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user-
> generated-content :
> 
> "You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so
that we
> can display and share the content you post. You still have control over
your
> content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you grant us are
limited to
> those we need to provide the service. We have the right to remove content
> or close Accounts if we need to."
> 
> 
And this is not likely to change under Microsoft.  CodePlex had similar
language, as does BitBucket, GitLab, and pretty much any service that hosts
creative content that isn’t a social network (and even then, some of them do
too.)

> 
> 
> From: Python-Dev  bounces+mgainty=hotmail@python.org> on behalf of
> M.-A. Lemburg 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM
> To: Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for
> $7.5 billion
> 
> Something that may change is the way they treat Github
> accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.
> 
> But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab
> as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would
> worry too much.
> 
> Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much
> with
> the products they have, but with the data. Their databases
> know more about IT developer than anyone else and given
> that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell
> us something :-)
> 
> 
> On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> >
> > That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the
> ecosystem.
> > For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to
> promote
> > (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and
> improve
> > integrations with other CI services?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Antoine.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700
> > Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> >> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou
>  wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200
> >>> Victor Stinner  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just
> guess that
> >>>> it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft
> is a big
> >>>> company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also
> confident that
> >>>> nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to
> worry about
> >>>> anything.
> >>>
> >>> It does spell uncertainty on the long term.  While there is
> no need to
> >>> worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the
> debate about
> >>> moving issues to Github.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if
> GitHub had
> >> remained independent there would have been be similar
> concerns about how it
> >> would make enough money to stay in business.
> >>
> >
> >
> __
> _
> > Python-Dev mailing list
> > Python-Dev@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
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> Dev Info
> Page
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> on.org
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> post
> general
> Python
> questions
> to this list.
> For help
> with
> Python
> please
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> help
> page.. On
> this list
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> Python
> developer
> s discuss
> the future
> of the
> language
> and its
> implemen
> tation.
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> 
> 
> > Unsubscribe:
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> dev/mal%40egenix.com
> >
> 
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1,
> Jun 05 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting
> ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces
> ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces
> ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> __
> __
> 
> ::: We impl

Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote:


who owns the Data hosted on Github?

Github Author?
Microsoft?


Martin
https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user-generated-content 
:


"/You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so 
that we can display and share the content you post. You still have 
control over your content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you 
grant us are limited to those we need to provide the service. We have 
the right to remove content or close Accounts if we need to."/





*From:* Python-Dev  
on behalf of M.-A. Lemburg 

*Sent:* Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM
*To:* Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org
*Subject:* Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion
Something that may change is the way they treat Github
accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.

But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab
as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would
worry too much.

Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with
the products they have, but with the data. Their databases
know more about IT developer than anyone else and given
that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell
us something :-)


On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
> That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem.
> For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote
> (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve
> integrations with other CI services?
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700
> Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou 
 wrote:

>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200
>>> Victor Stinner  wrote:

 At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess 
that

 it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big
 company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that
 nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about
 anything.
>>>
>>> It does spell uncertainty on the long term.  While there is no need to
>>> worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about
>>> moving issues to Github.
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had
>> remained independent there would have been be similar concerns 
about how it

>> would make enough money to stay in business.
>>
>
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Python please see the Python help page.. On this list the key Python 
developers discuss the future of the language and its implementation.




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>

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eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... 
http://www.egenix.com/ 
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>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ 




::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

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Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

[Martin Gainty]

who owns the Data hosted on Github?

Github Author?
Microsoft?


Martin
__





From: Python-Dev  on behalf 
of M.-A. Lemburg 
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM
To: Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion

Something that may change is the way they treat Github
accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.

But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab
as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would
worry too much.

Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with
the products they have, but with the data. Their databases
know more about IT developer than anyone else and given
that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell
us something :-)


On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
> That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem.
> For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote
> (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve
> integrations with other CI services?
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700
> Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200
>>> Victor Stinner  wrote:

 At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that
 it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big
 company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that
 nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about
 anything.
>>>
>>> It does spell uncertainty on the long term.  While there is no need to
>>> worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about
>>> moving issues to Github.
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had
>> remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it
>> would make enough money to stay in business.
>>
>
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future of the language and its implementation.



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Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
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>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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