Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 07:34:02PM +0100, Jan Claeys wrote: > Op zondag 20-01-2008 om 20:46 uur [tijdzone +0300], schreef Oleg > Broytmann: > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Jan Claeys wrote: > > > Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 02:33 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Christian > > > Heimes: > > > > ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. > > > > > > There is (at least) one linux distro using it, but it's not very > > > well-known. > > > >Gobo Linux? > > Now that I think about it, I'm not sure they use it under $HOME too, but > I was thinking about that distro, yes, as they use such a scheme for the > rest of their system (and it seems natural to do so throughout then). I don't know if they have a scheme for $HOME. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Op zondag 20-01-2008 om 20:46 uur [tijdzone +0300], schreef Oleg Broytmann: > On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Jan Claeys wrote: > > Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 02:33 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Christian > > Heimes: > > > ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. > > > > There is (at least) one linux distro using it, but it's not very > > well-known. > >Gobo Linux? Now that I think about it, I'm not sure they use it under $HOME too, but I was thinking about that distro, yes, as they use such a scheme for the rest of their system (and it seems natural to do so throughout then). -- Jan Claeys ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Jan Claeys wrote: > Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 02:33 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Christian > Heimes: > > Bill Janssen wrote: > > > Good point, but I prefer ~/Library/Python to either of these. > > > > ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. > > There is (at least) one linux distro using it, but it's not very > well-known. Gobo Linux? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Op woensdag 16-01-2008 om 02:33 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Christian Heimes: > Bill Janssen wrote: > > Good point, but I prefer ~/Library/Python to either of these. > > ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. There is (at least) one linux distro using it, but it's not very well-known. > I *could* add yet another environment variable PYTHONUSERHOME to set the > base path but I prefer not. A solution might be a way for python distributors to set the default location , and then provide PYTHONUSERHOME for stubborn users to override that. ;) -- Jan Claeys ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 06:12:52AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: -> Bill Janssen writes: -> > > >> ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. -> > > -> > > Bill> Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by -> > > Bill> default. -> -> > > [etc.] -> -> > [tocatta and fugue ad lib] -> -> Doesn't Apple publish standards for this? They do for everything -> else, it seems. Yep -- finally found it: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001032.html http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPFileSystem/Articles/WhereToPutFiles.html --titus ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Bill Janssen writes: > > >> ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. > > > > Bill> Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by > > Bill> default. > > [etc.] > [tocatta and fugue ad lib] Doesn't Apple publish standards for this? They do for everything else, it seems. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
> >> ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. > > Bill> Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by > Bill> default. > > I think only for stuff that is a Mac-ish GUI app type of thing and/or that > plays with Mac's distinct APIs (Carbon, Cocoa, whatever). Would you > install, for example, a personal version of gcc there? I wouldn't, but > that's just me. Is that really the question? I'd agree with you there. But if you wanted a standard per-user place where gcc would look for custom filters of some sort, on OS X, I'd think it would be appropriate. Which makes more sense, to me, as an analogue of a per-user site-packages directory. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
>> ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. Bill> Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by Bill> default. I think only for stuff that is a Mac-ish GUI app type of thing and/or that plays with Mac's distinct APIs (Carbon, Cocoa, whatever). Would you install, for example, a personal version of gcc there? I wouldn't, but that's just me. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Bill Janssen wrote: > Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by > default. And I'm sure there's a different "best place" on Windows > (for instance, all of our accounts are network roaming accounts, and > you don't want to put anything in ~). And there are probably various > right places for various flavors of Linux. > > Any PEP on this that doesn't take these OS-specific differences into > account probably isn't worth reading, IMO. Your comment doesn't help at all. In fact my proposal uses different "best places" for Windows (%APPDATA%), Mac (~/Library/Python) and Unix (~/.local). I can't comment on OS2, Ricos and VAX because I've zero experience with the platforms. The right place for a platform is the place we decide is right. As long as the directory is somewhere inside the home directory of a user and the directory doesn't show up in the user data folder (hence APPDATA on Windows and a dot directory on Unix) I consider any sensible directory as the right one. Do you think APPDATA. ~/Library/Python or ~/.local are not sensible? Please stop bitching and bring in some useful, constructive criticism and use cases not covered by my PEP. Have you read the PEP at all? Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
> Bill Janssen wrote: > > Good point, but I prefer ~/Library/Python to either of these. > > ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. > I *could* add yet another environment variable PYTHONUSERHOME to set the > base path but I prefer not. > > Christian Sure, but it's clearly where this should be on an OS X system, by default. And I'm sure there's a different "best place" on Windows (for instance, all of our accounts are network roaming accounts, and you don't want to put anything in ~). And there are probably various right places for various flavors of Linux. Any PEP on this that doesn't take these OS-specific differences into account probably isn't worth reading, IMO. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Bill Janssen wrote: > Good point, but I prefer ~/Library/Python to either of these. ~/Library/ is a Mac OS X thing. I haven't seen it on other Unix systems. I *could* add yet another environment variable PYTHONUSERHOME to set the base path but I prefer not. Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Oleg Broytmann writes:
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 06:31:42AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > I think both for UI reasons (given above) and for API reasons (given
> > by others) there should be a separate ~/SOMETHING/{bin,etc,lib,share}
> > hierarchy for user-specific packaged contents. I like ~/.local a
> > little better than ~/local, but both work for me.
>
>Having ~/.python allows me remove it with just one command. It's harder
> to clear ~/.local/{bin,lib} without affecting whatever I want to preserve
> there.
Good point, but I prefer ~/Library/Python to either of these.
Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Oleg>Why not use GNU stow? Thanks for the reference. I'd never heard of it before. I suspect our IT folks may not have as well. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Oleg Broytmann writes:
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 06:31:42AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > I think both for UI reasons (given above) and for API reasons (given
> > by others) there should be a separate ~/SOMETHING/{bin,etc,lib,share}
> > hierarchy for user-specific packaged contents. I like ~/.local a
> > little better than ~/local, but both work for me.
>
>Having ~/.python allows me remove it with just one command. It's harder
> to clear ~/.local/{bin,lib} without affecting whatever I want to preserve
> there.
No, it shouldn't be. Part of the implementation should be a way for
user-specific packages to uninstall themselves. It's also not clear
to me how you can "just remove" ~/.python if there is more than one
package installed there.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 06:31:42AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> I think both for UI reasons (given above) and for API reasons (given
> by others) there should be a separate ~/SOMETHING/{bin,etc,lib,share}
> hierarchy for user-specific packaged contents. I like ~/.local a
> little better than ~/local, but both work for me.
Having ~/.python allows me remove it with just one command. It's harder
to clear ~/.local/{bin,lib} without affecting whatever I want to preserve
there.
Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Oleg Broytmann writes:
>~/.python
To me, this strongly suggests user configuration files, not a place
where an app can store user-specific packages.
True, there are apps that store their stuff in such places, like most
GNOME apps. But they have no user-servicable parts (including config
files) anyway.
I think both for UI reasons (given above) and for API reasons (given
by others) there should be a separate ~/SOMETHING/{bin,etc,lib,share}
hierarchy for user-specific packaged contents. I like ~/.local a
little better than ~/local, but both work for me.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 02:34:02PM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Oleg>~/.python > Oleg>~/.python/bin > Oleg>~/.python/lib > Oleg>~/.python/lib/python2.5 > > The drawback of this approach is that it implies that Perl, Tcl, IPython, > etc. belong in their own .whatever directory. How many users install (parts of) all of these into their homes? > The IT folks here at work do > things that way (though not in home directories). If I want to build a > package which relies on zlib, libpng, libtiff, libjpeg, etc., imagine what > my CPPFLAGS, CFLAGS and LDFLAGS arguments look like. :barf: Why not use GNU stow? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Oleg>~/.python Oleg>~/.python/bin Oleg>~/.python/lib Oleg>~/.python/lib/python2.5 The drawback of this approach is that it implies that Perl, Tcl, IPython, etc. belong in their own .whatever directory. The IT folks here at work do things that way (though not in home directories). If I want to build a package which relies on zlib, libpng, libtiff, libjpeg, etc., imagine what my CPPFLAGS, CFLAGS and LDFLAGS arguments look like. :barf: Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
Daniel> I use ~/local, with a layout analogous to /usr, ... Ditto. Makes things nice and clear. I install stuff without becoming root or polluting central directories. Daniel> To those folks who favor creating ~/bin, ~/lib, ~/share, ad Daniel> nauseum, I point out that non-hidden, non-user-created files in Daniel> ~ ought to be kept to a minimum. It is, after all, the user's Daniel> default workspace. Agreed. You're just asking for trouble if you set --prefix=$HOME. Eventually you will encounter some package which would have scribbled all over /usr/local and only disrupted other external packages (which you can always reinstall) but instead scribbles all over your home directory, wiping out your almost finished Ph.D. thesis in Library Science which you had saved to ~/lib. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 12:11:37PM -0800, Daniel Arbuckle wrote: > I use ~/local, with a layout analogous to /usr, all the time. It's not > a standard, but in my experience it is by far the best solution to > installing things in the home directory. It doesn't matter much > whether you call it local or .local or .pythonlocal (although that > last would limit the utility somewhat, by implying that other things > should be installed there). It does matter that it be a _subdirectory_ > of ~, and that it be structured like /usr. ~/.python ~/.python/bin ~/.python/lib ~/.python/lib/python2.5 Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 54, Issue 57
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:57:02 -0500, Kevin Jacobs wrote: > On Jan 15, 2008 6:24 AM, Oleg Broytmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 11:41:47PM +, Jon Ribbens wrote: > > > It makes sense, but personally I have never heard before of ~/.local. > > > Whereas ~/bin is something I am quite familiar with. > > > > Me too. python-dev is the only place I have heard of ~/.local. I have > > been using Linux (different distributions), Solaris and FreeBSD for quite > > a long time (though I have never used GNOME/KDE/etc.) > > > Never heard of it either, would be completely baffled if caught unawares by > it in the wild. Has anyone consulted with the LSB or a cross-platform > filesystem layout guide to see what the recommended best-practice is? I use ~/local, with a layout analogous to /usr, all the time. It's not a standard, but in my experience it is by far the best solution to installing things in the home directory. It doesn't matter much whether you call it local or .local or .pythonlocal (although that last would limit the utility somewhat, by implying that other things should be installed there). It does matter that it be a _subdirectory_ of ~, and that it be structured like /usr. To those folks who favor creating ~/bin, ~/lib, ~/share, ad nauseum, I point out that non-hidden, non-user-created files in ~ ought to be kept to a minimum. It is, after all, the user's default workspace. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
