[Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Joseph C. Sible]

I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?

Joseph C. Sible
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Tim Peters]

[Joseph C. Sible 
> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit
> a PR for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why
> does the Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody
> else does?

So that our marketing partners can deliver exciting consumer shopping
opportunities directly to your front door ;-)

Seriously, "nobody else does" shows you haven't looked much.  For
example, the first two I just looked at also require a mailing
address:

Apache CLA
https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf

Android CLA
https://cla.developers.google.com/clas/new?domain=DOMAIN_GOOGLE&kind=KIND_INDIVIDUAL

So I'll guess that projects big enough to hire actual lawyers require
an address.  As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:

p...@python.org
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Joseph C. Sible]

On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 11:47 PM Tim Peters  wrote:

> Seriously, "nobody else does" shows you haven't looked much.  For
> example, the first two I just looked at also require a mailing
> address:
>
> Apache CLA
> https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf
>
> Android CLA
> https://cla.developers.google.com/clas/new?domain=DOMAIN_GOOGLE&kind=KIND_INDIVIDUAL
>
> So I'll guess that projects big enough to hire actual lawyers require
> an address.

Fair. I guess I should have said "nobody else that I've ever
contributed code upstream to does". (I suppose I have mostly
contributed to smaller, less formal projects in the past.)

> As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
>
> p...@python.org

Thanks, this is useful information.

Joseph C. Sible
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Steve Holden]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 5:24 AM Joseph C. Sible 
wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 11:47 PM Tim Peters  wrote:
> [...]
> > As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> > lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> > pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> > Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
> >
> > p...@python.org
>
> Thanks, this is useful information.
>
> 


There's a reason he was called "the timbot" ;-)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Richard Damon]

On 9/8/18 11:46 PM, Tim Peters wrote:
> [Joseph C. Sible 
>> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
>> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit
>> a PR for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why
>> does the Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody
>> else does?
> So that our marketing partners can deliver exciting consumer shopping
> opportunities directly to your front door ;-)
>
> Seriously, "nobody else does" shows you haven't looked much.  For
> example, the first two I just looked at also require a mailing
> address:
>
> Apache CLA
> https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf
>
> Android CLA
> https://cla.developers.google.com/clas/new?domain=DOMAIN_GOOGLE&kind=KIND_INDIVIDUAL
>
> So I'll guess that projects big enough to hire actual lawyers require
> an address.  As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
>
> p...@python.org
> _
While I am not a lawyer, or even play on on TV, I can imagine that for
such an agreement to really be enforced, they need to know who actually
is agreeing to it. Just a name isn't a unique a unique identifier, so
more information is needed.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
"Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:
> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
> for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
> Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?

I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.

(I've never given that advice of course, you've invented it all by
yourself ;-))

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Terry Reedy]

On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
"Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:

I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?


I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 
Python is important enough to be a possible target of copyright 
lawsuits.  The purpose of collecting CLA's for all non-trivial 
contributions is to try to avoid lawsuits and make them easier to defend 
against should one happen anyway.  Part of the CLA is informing 
contributors that we only want code that can be legally contributed, and 
contributors agreeing that they will offer such.



I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.


DON'T DO THIS, anyone.  If you were to be a defendant or witness in a 
lawsuit, expect to be asked "Did you reside at this address when you 
signed the CLA?"  Lying under oath and admitting that you lied when 
signing are both unpleasant options.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:15:36 -0400
Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
> > "Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:  
> >> I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
> >> box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
> >> for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
> >> Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?  
> 
> I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 

It probably does, though it's hardly perfect.  Mostly it can serve as a
contact point, but these days an e-mail address might be more durable
than a postal address (and it's probably a much better identifier too).

> Part of the CLA is informing 
> contributors that we only want code that can be legally contributed, and 
> contributors agreeing that they will offer such.

You don't need someone's postal address to inform them, if you're not
sending them any paper material (which the PSF doesn't, AFAIR).  Asking
a contributor their postal address does not make them better informed.

> > I don't think I've ever received anything from the PSF by postal mail,
> > so if you don't want to give out your postal address, or simply don't
> > have one, then you can probably submit a fake one.  
> 
> DON'T DO THIS, anyone.  If you were to be a defendant or witness in a 
> lawsuit, expect to be asked "Did you reside at this address when you 
> signed the CLA?"

I'm not sure why anyone would ask that question.  Residing somewhere
doesn't have much to do with copyright issues (except when determining
which national law should apply, and perhaps even not).  And a postal
address doesn't have to be where you reside, either : people can very
well have their postal address at a friend's or relative's while not
living there, and they can very well give different postal addresses
for different purposes (just like you can give a different e-mail
address to your professional and personal contacts).

Besides, even in a dysfunctional legal system, I'd be surprised if a
Python copyright lawsuit would involve asking all past Python
contributors (the thousands of them, assuming they can all be
successfully contacted and brought to the court) whether they did
really live at the postal address they once declared on their CLA.

But, yes, perhaps better to leave the entry blank or write "irrelevant",
if the PSF accepts that :-)

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Matt Arcidy]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 12:59 Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
>
> I'm not sure why anyone would ask that question.


because if they can discredit a witness, they will.

Matt

>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Richard Damon]

On 9/9/18 3:57 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:15:36 -0400
> Terry Reedy  wrote:
>> On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400
>>> "Joseph C. Sible"  wrote:  
 I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check
 box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR
 for CPython, I was surprised to see that it wants my address. Why does the
 Python Software Foundation need this, especially when nobody else does?  
>> I presume others are correct that an address helps as an identifier. 
> It probably does, though it's hardly perfect.  Mostly it can serve as a
> contact point, but these days an e-mail address might be more durable
> than a postal address (and it's probably a much better identifier too).
>
A Name + Address is a practically perfect identifier, as most people
have a specific legal address of residence and at that address it is
very unlikely two people have identical legal names. It is this legal
address and legal name that people should be using for these sorts of
legal documents. Government tend to have a vested interest in keeping
track of legal addresses as this tends to have implications in things
like taxes, so piggy backing on this identification can help with
identification for other purposes.

There also tends to be official government documents that can track back
your 'official' address over time, so confirming that you are the Joe
Smith from 15 Main ST, Anytown USA, is possible. Try to think how you
could legally prove you were or were not the owner of
joe.sm...@example.com 10 years ago, where example.com is some major free
email providers.

-- 
Richard Damon

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