Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Tue, Dec 14, 2004, Gregory P. Smith wrote: Attribution deleted: No one disagrees that Python needs better marketing material. At the last PyCon a group of people sat down in a pydotorg BoF and agreed that yes, we do need a management-friendly marketing site, and that we could put it on a separate hostname (something.python.org) so that the current www.python.org wouldn't have to be changed. However, no one has actually sat down and written such a site, or even outlined it. Let me encourage you to go ahead and do that. You could draft the outline on a Wiki page, and then later figure out an attractive design and organization for a new site. suggested hostname: why.python.org This is where the process always gets bogged down. :-( Once we have material, that's the time to start arguing about where it should go. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 10:21:58PM -0800, Gregory P. Smith wrote: suggested hostname: why.python.org It's only a matter of taste, probably, but that looks a bit ugly for my eyes. May be use.python.org? corp.python.org? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmannhttp://phd.pp.ru/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
Oleg Broytmann wrote: On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 10:21:58PM -0800, Gregory P. Smith wrote: suggested hostname: why.python.org It's only a matter of taste, probably, but that looks a bit ugly for my eyes. May be use.python.org? corp.python.org? about.python.org? And if someone ends up playing with the DNS server, maybe they could add wiki.python.org while they're at it :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Aahz wrote: On Tue, Dec 14, 2004, Gregory P. Smith wrote: Attribution deleted: No one disagrees that Python needs better marketing material. At the last PyCon a group of people sat down in a pydotorg BoF and agreed that yes, we do need a management-friendly marketing site, and that we could put it on a separate hostname (something.python.org) so that the current www.python.org wouldn't have to be changed. However, no one has actually sat down and written such a site, or even outlined it. Let me encourage you to go ahead and do that. You could draft the outline on a Wiki page, and then later figure out an attractive design and organization for a new site. suggested hostname: why.python.org This is where the process always gets bogged down. :-( Once we have material, that's the time to start arguing about where it should go. Absolutely. Content first, details later. Incidentally, I keep offering: Anyone that actually takes this on should feel free to rip off content from http://wingware.com/python -- I'm not saying this is the best content or the most complete but it's a start anyway (I wrote it in case that wasn't clear ;-) Incidentally, if someone does get excited about working on this, check with me or another PSF board member. - Stephan ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Carlos Ribeiro wrote: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:36:45 -0500, Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, there's another problem in the corporate world that has nothing to do with Python's performance (at least not directly). When a manager has to hire 25 programmers for a project they think to themselves, well, Java programmers are a dime a dozen so I'll have no problem finding warm bodies if we write it in Java. Can I even /find/ 25 Python programmers? You're right, specially for big corporations. But in the end, we're just running in circles: it's hard to get new programmers to learn Python, partly because it's in low demand, and partly because the language has an totally undeserved fame of being slow. The perception-of-speed issue is clearly important but we're definately not running in circles. There are quite a few signs that the Python user base is expanding substantially. For example, a September article in InfoWorld said But the big winner this time around is the object-oriented scripting language Python, which saw a 6 percent gain in popularity, almost doubling last year's results. http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/09/24/39FErrdev_1.html?s=feature Also, there are companies that have hundreds of Python programmers, like some of those that have done success stories: http://www.pythonology.org/success That doesn't mean the perception that you can't hire 25 at once isn't a problem, but clearly some companies know that turning someone into a Python programmer is easy enough to offset the smaller available pool. To counter speed claims, look at articles like this one: http://www.pythonology.org/successstory=suzanne Python helps AFNIC manage over 10,000 internet domain name registration requests per minute in a landrush for the .fr top-level internet domain Yes it would be nice to have more of these, where performance is mentioned in the summary! Please contact me if you can contribute one. BTW, I can't resist my own favorite speed anecdote: I once wrote a one-off script to process down a couple of gigabytes of variously fragmented web logs into month-by-month files. I thought I was being naive doing f.readline() in a for loop with some date parsing code for each entry. But I was completely astounded how fast it processed -- and it just worked the first time around. - Stephan ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
RE: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
Title: RE: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places [Stephan Deibel] #- For example, a September article in InfoWorld said But the #- big winner #- this time around is the object-oriented scripting language #- Python, which #- saw a 6 percent gain in popularity, almost doubling last #- year's results. How big are the chances that SourceForge numbers actually could be extrapolated to the rest of the universe? According to them (check software map, and look by programming language), and showing everything with a developers choice for their project share = 2%: C++ 18.5 C 18.1 Java 17.5 PHP 12.9 Perl 7.2 Python 4.7 Visual Basic 2.6 C# 2.6 _javascript_ 2.6 Delphi/Kylix 2.1 Unix Shell 2.0 It also would nice to see a graph showing tendencies here. . Facundo ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
RE: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Batista, Facundo wrote: [Stephan Deibel] #- For example, a September article in InfoWorld said But the #- big winner #- this time around is the object-oriented scripting language #- Python, which #- saw a 6 percent gain in popularity, almost doubling last #- year's results. How big are the chances that SourceForge numbers actually could be extrapolated to the rest of the universe? Not very good, I think. I suspect the vast majority of programmers have never heard of source forge. I'm actually surprised that it's only 4.7% on source forge -- that seems to indicate Python is doing quite a bit better in the non-open source world than on SF. Interesting... wouldn't be surprised if this is because the speed myth has stronger hold among hacker types than business programmer types. If people feel this is getting off-topic for python-dev, there is also the mostly dormant marketing-python list: http://wingware.com/mailman/listinfo/marketing-python (the trolls have been removed) - Stephan ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
That's right - when I talk to fellow programmers that I'm writing software in Python, many of them are amazed and ask me, but isn't it slow?. I've heard it more than once... I heard it last month. In the last couple of months, an acquaintance of mine has been trying out Python. He likes the language, particularly the support for character sets, but has (apparently) given up after benchmarking a typical (for him) task against Perl. The task is to use the re package to heavily modify a file by a sequence of re substitutions. Apparently the Python program, which applies the same re substitutions in the same order as the Perl program, takes 3 times as long to run. He thinks it's because of mutable strings in Perl -- that is, he thinks the string being modified (which is long, a whole file full of text) is modified in place in Perl, but has to be re-consed in Python. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: 2.4 news reaches interesting places
On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 12:32, Carlos Ribeiro wrote: For those who believe that a non-profit project should not do any marketing, a reminder. If the perception about Python is one of a slow language, it's much more difficult to find places where you can use Python. In the long run, many of us may be forced to work with other languages tools, just because that's where the money is. I personally take it a matter of personal interest, because I know how hard it is to sell Python to companies here in Brazil. Actually, there's another problem in the corporate world that has nothing to do with Python's performance (at least not directly). When a manager has to hire 25 programmers for a project they think to themselves, well, Java programmers are a dime a dozen so I'll have no problem finding warm bodies if we write it in Java. Can I even /find/ 25 Python programmers? -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Python-Dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
