Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:32:02 +1000 Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Most of the time when I hear people say the PEP process is too difficult, I eventually find that what they really mean is learning the kinds of things that python-dev are likely to be worried about, and ensuring that the PEP adequately addresses their concerns, and listening to feedback, and reconsidering what I actually want, and revising my proposal, such that they eventually say yes is too time consuming. Well, the PEP process *is* difficult and not only because you have to learn the kinds of things that python-dev are likely to be worried about. Getting a PEP accepted for a feature is much more work than getting a feature accepted in the bug tracker. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On 28 March 2014 21:12, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:32:02 +1000 Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Most of the time when I hear people say the PEP process is too difficult, I eventually find that what they really mean is learning the kinds of things that python-dev are likely to be worried about, and ensuring that the PEP adequately addresses their concerns, and listening to feedback, and reconsidering what I actually want, and revising my proposal, such that they eventually say yes is too time consuming. Well, the PEP process *is* difficult and not only because you have to learn the kinds of things that python-dev are likely to be worried about. Getting a PEP accepted for a feature is much more work than getting a feature accepted in the bug tracker. Oh, agreed. It's only the too qualifier that I question - I'm not sure how much easier we could make it before it ceased to serve its filtering purpose. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
Eli Bendersky writes: On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.org wrote: I would have said that, too, several years ago, but I think we've been requiring (or using anyway) PEPs for a lot more things now. YMMV but IMHO this is a good thing. FWIW I was just talking to Matz yesterday, and asked him about it. He said he thought PEPs worked great for Python (in the context of explain that his (and Ruby's) style is different). Just-ask-the-nearest-independent-opinion-ly y'rs, ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On 27 March 2014 12:11, Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.org wrote: I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. YMMV but IMHO this is a good thing. PEPs provide a single point of reference to a discussion that would otherwise be spread over multiple centi-threads (not that PEPs don't create centi-threads, but they outlive them in a way). From my point of view, the primary purpose of the PEP process is to provide a way for us to finally say yes to controversial proposals that have valid arguments against them. When things are obviously good ideas that don't impose a big maintenance burden, nobody really objects if we skip the PEP process (that isn't always a good thing - directory and zipfile execution flew under the radar for years because it was such a neat idea that Guido approved it directly in the issue, and then we forgot to mention it in the 2.6 What's New). Some ideas aren't obviously good, or a suitable API isn't obvious, or they impose a major additional maintenance burden, or they require a change to our development policies. In those cases, the PEP process allows us to collectively ask the question Is this worth the hassle?. Cases like the restoration of binary interpolation support, or my proposal to backport network security features, also showcase how the PEP process can be used to refine the *question* so the PEP champion is forced to figure out what they *really* want, and propose a solution that clearly solves that specific problem, rather than overreaching and asking for more than is needed. (This is also reflected in the relative fates of the current matrix multiplication proposal and previous more general proposals) With the introduction of the BDFL-Delegate system, and then the decision last year to give the Discussions-To header a bit more force and allow groups like the Python Packaging Authority to make use of the PEP process independently of python-dev, the PEP process is also becoming more streamlined, making it more effective in its role as a tool for establishing consensus - there's less need to convince someone to drop a veto without a PEP, as the PEP process itself is getting less painful. Most of the time when I hear people say the PEP process is too difficult, I eventually find that what they really mean is learning the kinds of things that python-dev are likely to be worried about, and ensuring that the PEP adequately addresses their concerns, and listening to feedback, and reconsidering what I actually want, and revising my proposal, such that they eventually say yes is too time consuming. Helping people to learn exactly how to navigate that process is actually one of the main roles of python-ideas these days, although we don't do a good job (at all) of advertising that fact. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On Mar 26, 2014, at 02:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: I would have said that, too, several years ago, but I think we've been requiring (or using anyway) PEPs for a lot more things now. OrderedDict had a PEP for example. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Hmm, me neither! I guess if someone *wants* to go through the PEP gauntlet, I won't stop them. It builds character. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: On Mar 26, 2014, at 02:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: I would have said that, too, several years ago, but I think we've been requiring (or using anyway) PEPs for a lot more things now. OrderedDict had a PEP for example. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Hmm, me neither! I guess if someone *wants* to go through the PEP gauntlet, I won't stop them. It builds character. -Barry ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/donald%40stufft.io Is that what it’s called? “character” :] - Donald Stufft PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:37:40 -0400 Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote: On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: On Mar 26, 2014, at 02:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: I would have said that, too, several years ago, but I think we've been requiring (or using anyway) PEPs for a lot more things now. OrderedDict had a PEP for example. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Hmm, me neither! I guess if someone *wants* to go through the PEP gauntlet, I won't stop them. It builds character. -Barry ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/donald%40stufft.io Is that what it’s called? “character” :] Preferably unicode. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On 03/26/2014 02:46 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:37:40 -0400 Donald Stufft wrote: On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: I guess if someone *wants* to go through the PEP gauntlet, I won't stop them. It builds character. Is that what it’s called? “character” :] Preferably unicode. Indeed, a lot more swear symbols available in Unicode! ;) -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson benja...@python.orgwrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2014, at 14:25, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Mar 26, 2014, at 01:55 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: It's not a bad idea. (I believe others have proposed an red-black tree.) Certainly, it requires a PEP and a few months of bikesheding, though. Generally, PEPs aren't necessary for simple or relatively uncontroversial additions to existing modules or the stdlib. I would have said that, too, several years ago, but I think we've been requiring (or using anyway) PEPs for a lot more things now. OrderedDict had a PEP for example. This is probably a natural outcome of the rising popularity of Python in the last few years. Much more users, more core developers, more at stake... I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. YMMV but IMHO this is a good thing. PEPs provide a single point of reference to a discussion that would otherwise be spread over multiple centi-threads (not that PEPs don't create centi-threads, but they outlive them in a way). Eli ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] On the necessity of PEPs [was collections.sortedtree]
On 03/26/2014 07:11 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. YMMV but IMHO this is a good thing. PEPs provide a single point of reference to a discussion that would otherwise be spread over multiple centi-threads (not that PEPs don't create centi-threads, but they outlive them in a way). Plus the PEP can help prevent multiple mega-threads as the same idea is revisited again and again and again... -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
