Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 02:20:54PM -0800, Glenn Linderman wrote: On 12/15/2010 10:39 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) Please address the following comment from the server.py source: # The default request version. This only affects responses up until # the point where the request line is parsed, so it mainly decides what # the client gets back when sending a malformed request line. # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. default_request_version = HTTP/0.9 What do you mean by address? The patch changes this to 1.0. And, as the comment says, this only affects what happens when the client sends a syntactically invalid request line, so whether the server does a 0.9-style or 1.0-style response is unimportant. Just what you did... justify the unimportance of not changing it :) Since now it is different than most web servers. +1 to removing HTTP 0.9 related code in http.client and http.server. Until today, I hadn't cared to read any details of HTTP 0.9 except that I knew that some code was present in http library to support it. Reading a bit about the HTTP 0.9 'Internet Draft' written 1991 is enough to convince that, if we have to fall back on any old behavior falling back to HTTP 1.0 is perfectly fine. Regarding this comment # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. Even HTTP 0.9 says that response SHOULD start with status line, but gives a suggestion that clients can tolerate bad server server behaviors when they don't send the status line and in that the case response is the body. http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Response.html So, It cannot be associated with the behavior most webservers, back then and even more so now. -- Senthil ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:29:27PM +0100, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Well, I think the most web servers comment itself is outdated. Try e.g. www.mozilla.org or www.google.com or www.msn.com. (but www.python.org or www.apache.org still have the legacy behaviour) What legacy behavior did you observe in these? -- Senthil ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
* Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) HTTP/0.9 support is still recommended (RFC 2616 is from 1999, but still current). I'm wondering, why you would consider touching that at all. Is it broken? Does it stand in the way of anything? If not, why throw away a feature? nd -- Already I've seen people (really!) write web URLs in the form: http:\\some.site.somewhere [...] How soon until greengrocers start writing apples $1\pound or something? -- Joona I Palaste in clc ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
Le jeudi 16 décembre 2010 à 16:14 +0800, Senthil Kumaran a écrit : On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:29:27PM +0100, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Well, I think the most web servers comment itself is outdated. Try e.g. www.mozilla.org or www.google.com or www.msn.com. (but www.python.org or www.apache.org still have the legacy behaviour) What legacy behavior did you observe in these? - Request: xyzzy - Response: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN htmlhead title405 Method Not Allowed/title /headbody h1Method Not Allowed/h1 pThe requested method xyzzy is not allowed for the URL /./p hr addressApache/2.3.8 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.3.8 OpenSSL/1.0.0a Server at www.apache.org Port 80/address /body/html (notice how the response has no headers) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 07:42:08 +0100 André Malo n...@perlig.de wrote: * Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) HTTP/0.9 support is still recommended (RFC 2616 is from 1999, but still current). I'm wondering, why you would consider touching that at all. Is it broken? Does it stand in the way of anything? If not, why throw away a feature? Well, it complicates maintenance and makes fixing issues such as http://bugs.python.org/issue6791 less likely. Note that the patch still accepts servers and clients which advertise themselves as 0.9 (using HTTP/0.9 as a version string). It just removes support for the style of simple response without headers that 0.9 allowed. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thursday 16 December 2010 15:23:05 Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 07:42:08 +0100 André Malo n...@perlig.de wrote: * Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) HTTP/0.9 support is still recommended (RFC 2616 is from 1999, but still current). I'm wondering, why you would consider touching that at all. Is it broken? Does it stand in the way of anything? If not, why throw away a feature? Well, it complicates maintenance and makes fixing issues such as http://bugs.python.org/issue6791 less likely. I'd vote for removing it from the client code and keeping it in the server. Note that the patch still accepts servers and clients which advertise themselves as 0.9 (using HTTP/0.9 as a version string). HTTP/0.9 doesn't *have* a version string. GET /foo is a HTTP/0.9 request. GET /foo HTTP/0.9 isn't actually (it's a paradoxon, alright ;). It simply isn't a valid HTTP request, which would demand a 505 response. nd ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM, André Malo n...@perlig.de wrote: I'd vote for removing it from the client code and keeping it in the server. If it must be maintained anywhere, it should be in the client, according to the basic principle of accept what you can, generate carefully. Python.org's HTTP/0.9 responses appear to be in response to HTTP/0.9 requests only. A request claiming to be HTTP 1.0, but without a Host: header, gets a redirect to the same page. I'm still in favor of removing HTTP 0.9 support entirely. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake at acm.org A storm broke loose in my mind. --Albert Einstein ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 02:20:37PM +0100, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Try e.g. www.mozilla.org or www.google.com or www.msn.com. (but www.python.org or www.apache.org still have the legacy behaviour) What legacy behavior did you observe in these? - Request: xyzzy - Response: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN (notice how the response has no headers) Well, Error response without headers was observed in www.mozilla.org and www.google.com for Invalid requests. But, I observed something surprising at www.apache.org If you do GET / HTTP/1.0 You do get the valid Response with headers. But if you do GET / You get a valid response Without headers. I was afraid if this behavior was to support HTTP 0.9 style where the the reponse is sent without the headers. Actually, it is turning out to be true: http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/rfc1945.html#Response According to HTTP 1.0, When a request is Simple-Request, it means a VERB URL (without a version) and it generally corresponds to HTTP 0.9 And when a server receives such a Simple-Request, it sends a Simple-Response where it does not send the headers back. I think, the same is exhibited by other Servers as well www.google.com, www.mozilla.org where for Invalid Request without version, you are sending a Simple-Request (HTTP 0.9) style and getting the corresponding response. Given these, any assumption that servers no longer support HTTP/0.9 becomes false. So nuking it will require some thought. -- Senthil -- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Dec 16, 2010, at 3:14 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: Even HTTP 0.9 says that response SHOULD start with status line, but gives a suggestion that clients can tolerate bad server server behaviors when they don't send the status line and in that the case response is the body. http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Response.html So, It cannot be associated with the behavior most webservers, back then and even more so now. Actually no. That document is describing almost-HTTP 1.0. Here is the actual document you were looking for: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/AsImplemented.html HTTP 0.9 had no headers, no status line, nothing but GET $url crlf and a stream of data in response. James ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:21:37AM -0500, James Y Knight wrote: Even HTTP 0.9 says that response SHOULD start with status line, but gives a suggestion that clients can tolerate bad server server behaviors when they don't send the status line and in that the case response is the body. http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Response.html So, It cannot be associated with the behavior most webservers, back then and even more so now. Actually no. That document is describing almost-HTTP 1.0. Yeah. I know it was almost-HTTP 1.0, but the same docs say that if protocol version was not specified, it is assumed to be 0.9. So, I thought it was a good reference point to understand the behavior. Here is the actual document you were looking for: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/AsImplemented.html HTTP 0.9 had no headers, no status line, nothing but GET $url crlf and a stream of data in response. Actually, you are right. I seems be be actual defined behavior of HTTP 0.9. As explained in that above doc and also in RFC 1945 Request section. -- Senthil ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:52:43PM +0100, André Malo wrote: HTTP/0.9 doesn't *have* a version string. GET /foo is a HTTP/0.9 request. GET /foo HTTP/0.9 isn't actually (it's a paradoxon, alright ;). It simply isn't a valid HTTP request, which would demand a 505 response. Yes, this is an important point. Many webservers seem to exhibit the HTTP 0.9 response behaviors when you don't specify the version. -- Senthil ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:52:14 +0800 Senthil Kumaran orsent...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, it is turning out to be true: http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/rfc1945.html#Response According to HTTP 1.0, When a request is Simple-Request, it means a VERB URL (without a version) and it generally corresponds to HTTP 0.9 And when a server receives such a Simple-Request, it sends a Simple-Response where it does not send the headers back. I think, the same is exhibited by other Servers as well www.google.com, www.mozilla.org where for Invalid Request without version, you are sending a Simple-Request (HTTP 0.9) style and getting the corresponding response. Yes, but only error or redirect responses: $ nc www.google.fr 80 GET / HTTP/1.0 302 Found Location: http://www.google.fr/ [etc.] $ nc www.mozilla.org 80 GET / !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN htmlhead title403 Forbidden/title /headbody h1Forbidden/h1 pYou don't have permission to access /error/noindex.html on this server./p /body/html That's quite understandable, since most HTTP servers will expect a host header to know which site is actually desired. So a HTTP 0.9 client sending Simple-Requests has very little chance of being useful these days. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
All this talk of modern servers that also still support HTTP/0.9 is irrelevant. Unless anybody knows of a server that *only* supports HTTP 0.9 (and that's relevant to users of httplib) let's please kill support in the client. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On 05:02 pm, solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:52:14 +0800 Senthil Kumaran orsent...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, it is turning out to be true: http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/rfc1945.html#Response According to HTTP 1.0, When a request is Simple-Request, it means a VERB URL (without a version) and it generally corresponds to HTTP 0.9 And when a server receives such a Simple-Request, it sends a Simple-Response where it does not send the headers back. I think, the same is exhibited by other Servers as well www.google.com, www.mozilla.org where for Invalid Request without version, you are sending a Simple-Request (HTTP 0.9) style and getting the corresponding response. Yes, but only error or redirect responses: $ nc www.google.fr 80 GET / HTTP/1.0 302 Found Location: http://www.google.fr/ [etc.] Note that by using `nc` to test this, you're already generating an illegal request (unless you're doing something very special with your keyboard ;). When you hit return, nc will send \n. However, lines are delimited by \r\n in HTTP. I doubt this makes a difference to the point being discussed, but it _could_. I suggest performing your tests with telnet, instead. Jean-Paul ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
* Fred Drake wrote:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM, André Malo n...@perlig.de wrote:
I'd vote for removing it from the client code and keeping it in the
server.
If it must be maintained anywhere, it should be in the client,
according to the basic principle of accept what you can, generate
carefully.
*scratching head* exactly why I would keep support in the server.
nd
--
package Hacker::Perl::Another::Just;print
q...@{[reverse split/::/ =__PACKAGE__]}~;
# André Malo # http://www.perlig.de #
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Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:30 PM, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I doubt this makes a difference to the point being discussed, but it _could_. I suggest performing your tests with telnet, instead. I received similar results using telnet earlier today. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake at acm.org A storm broke loose in my mind. --Albert Einstein ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
Senthil Kumaran wrote: Given these, any assumption that servers no longer support HTTP/0.9 becomes false. But as long as httplib only sends requests with a version number = 1.0, it should be able to expect headers in the response, shouldn't it? -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. +1 -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake at acm.org A storm broke loose in my mind. --Albert Einstein ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On 12/15/2010 10:39 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) Please address the following comment from the server.py source: # The default request version. This only affects responses up until # the point where the request line is parsed, so it mainly decides what # the client gets back when sending a malformed request line. # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. default_request_version = HTTP/0.9 I realize this is a somewhat obscure point, and in general, if your interest in http.client and http.server implies that some of the many outstanding bug reports for that code will get resolved, I have no concern for dropping support for HTTP 0.9 protocol, other than the above. Glenn ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:58:51 -0800 Glenn Linderman v+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: On 12/15/2010 10:39 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) Please address the following comment from the server.py source: # The default request version. This only affects responses up until # the point where the request line is parsed, so it mainly decides what # the client gets back when sending a malformed request line. # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. default_request_version = HTTP/0.9 What do you mean by address? The patch changes this to 1.0. And, as the comment says, this only affects what happens when the client sends a syntactically invalid request line, so whether the server does a 0.9-style or 1.0-style response is unimportant. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On 12/15/2010 1:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:58:51 -0800 Glenn Lindermanv+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: On 12/15/2010 10:39 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) Please address the following comment from the server.py source: # The default request version. This only affects responses up until # the point where the request line is parsed, so it mainly decides what # the client gets back when sending a malformed request line. # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. default_request_version = HTTP/0.9 What do you mean by address? The patch changes this to 1.0. And, as the comment says, this only affects what happens when the client sends a syntactically invalid request line, so whether the server does a 0.9-style or 1.0-style response is unimportant. Just what you did... justify the unimportance of not changing it :) Since now it is different than most web servers. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Remove HTTP 0.9 support
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:20:54 -0800 Glenn Linderman v+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: On 12/15/2010 1:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:58:51 -0800 Glenn Lindermanv+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: On 12/15/2010 10:39 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, I would like to remove HTTP 0.9 support from http.client and http.server. I've opened an issue at http://bugs.python.org/issue10711 for that. Would anyone think it's a bad idea? (HTTP 1.0 was devised in 1996) Please address the following comment from the server.py source: # The default request version. This only affects responses up until # the point where the request line is parsed, so it mainly decides what # the client gets back when sending a malformed request line. # Most web servers default to HTTP 0.9, i.e. don't send a status line. default_request_version = HTTP/0.9 What do you mean by address? The patch changes this to 1.0. And, as the comment says, this only affects what happens when the client sends a syntactically invalid request line, so whether the server does a 0.9-style or 1.0-style response is unimportant. Just what you did... justify the unimportance of not changing it :) Since now it is different than most web servers. Well, I think the most web servers comment itself is outdated. Try e.g. www.mozilla.org or www.google.com or www.msn.com. (but www.python.org or www.apache.org still have the legacy behaviour) Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
