[Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
before:

  "search" -> "download" -> "unzip" -> "cmd" -> "cd" -> "python
setup.py install"


Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
`easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.

The required behavior for very basic user friendliness:
1. user installs Python 2.7
2. user issues `python -m easy_install something`
3. user gets message
'easy_install' tool is not installed on this system. To make it
available, download and install `setuptools` package from
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/setuptools/

4. the screen is paused before exit (for windows systems)

Other design notes:
1. if package tries to import `easy_install` module used for
bootstrap, it gets the same ImportException as if there were no
`easy_install` at all
2. bootstrap module is overwritten by actual package when users installs it


So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?


P.S. Please be careful to reply to relevant lists
-- 
anatoly t.



On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
> 2010/3/29 anatoly techtonik :
> [..]
>> It is really hard to follow. You should at least change subjects when
>> switching topic.
>
> I was talking about the work going on and the decisions taken lately.
>
> I never change topics of threads mails when there's less than 100 mails,
> because I find it way more confusing :)
>
>>
>> So, what is the verdict? Will there be a package management tool or
>> bootstrap package for it shipped with Python 2.7 or not?
>
> As I said in the mail you've quoted, all improvements are made in
> Distutils2. So the answer is no.
> Python 2.7b1 is due in less than a week anyways, so any new
> development on this topic will happen after.
>
> Basically Python 2.7 == Python 2.6 in term of packaging.
>
> Regards
> Tarek
>
> --
> Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] GSoC 2010 is on -- projects?

[anatoly techtonik]

I would vote for allowing student work on community infrastructure
tasks. Tracker, Wiki, Web site management tools are all outdated and
everybody who cares agrees that they've seen a better tools.

-- 
anatoly t.



On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 4:36 AM, C. Titus Brown  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> once again, the PSF has been accepted as a mentoring foundation for the Google
> Summer of Code!  This year, we're going to emphasize python 3 porting, so
> please think of projects you'd like to see tackled.
>
> Please submit ideas for projects as soon as possible, as students will be able
> to start applying soon.  You can add them to this page:
>
>   http://wiki.python.org/moin/SummerOfCode/2010
>
> You can subscribe to the mentors list here,
>
>   http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/soc2010-mentors
>
> and the general discussion list (students included) here:
>
>   http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/soc2010-general
>
> thanks,
> --titus
> --
> C. Titus Brown, c...@msu.edu
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Tarek Ziadé]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:30 AM, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
> So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
> and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
> before:
>
>  "search" -> "download" -> "unzip" -> "cmd" -> "cd" -> "python
> setup.py install"
>
>
> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.

There are other tools to install something in a vanilla Python :

- pip  (which also have an uninstall feature)
- distutils
- distribute

>
> The required behavior for very basic user friendliness:
> 1. user installs Python 2.7
> 2. user issues `python -m easy_install something`
> 3. user gets message
> 'easy_install' tool is not installed on this system. To make it
> available, download and install `setuptools` package from
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/setuptools/

Are you thinking about something generic ?

Like, being able to call :

$ python -m ANYTHING

And get an error message saying that the ANYTHING script is not installed ?
Then have a registry somewhere to get the name of the project that
owns the ANYTHING script ?


[..]
> So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
> reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?

I see two paths here:
1 - do you want to define a general mechanism for Python to install scripts ?
2 - are you just suggesting to have this mechanism only for Package Managers ?

In case of 2), what you would need to do is propose an extension to
PEP 376, we are currently working
on, then we can add it there once people have discussed it on
distutils-SIG, or maybe create a new PEP if the topic is too big to
fit in 376.

>
>
> P.S. Please be careful to reply to relevant lists

Yes, so if it's 2) let's keep this thread in Distutils-SIG.
Cross-posting like this makes it hard to follow.

Tarek

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Lennart Regebro]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:30, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.

We can't ship *A* bootstrap script until there is *A* package
management tool in the Python world. Currently there are three. :)

In short: The tools that exist are not ready yet.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
>>
>> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
>> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
>> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
>> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.
>
> There are other tools to install something in a vanilla Python :
>
> - pip  (which also have an uninstall feature)
> - distutils
> - distribute

distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
anything even about installed packages, not saying anything about
dependencies.

`pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -
it can be said in bootstrap package message. There is no problem with
packages that require `setuptools` either - they will require
`setuptools` as dependency anyway.

For now there are two questions:
1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
`easy_install` tool?
2. Which one is the recommended?

P.S. Should there be an accessible FAQ in addition to ML?

>>
>> The required behavior for very basic user friendliness:
>> 1. user installs Python 2.7
>> 2. user issues `python -m easy_install something`
>> 3. user gets message
>> 'easy_install' tool is not installed on this system. To make it
>> available, download and install `setuptools` package from
>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/setuptools/
>
> Are you thinking about something generic ?
>
> Like, being able to call :
>
> $ python -m ANYTHING
>
> And get an error message saying that the ANYTHING script is not installed ?
> Then have a registry somewhere to get the name of the project that
> owns the ANYTHING script ?
>

No. To get something in 2.7 I would refrain from developing into this
direction for now.

> [..]
>> So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
>> reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?
>
> I see two paths here:
> 1 - do you want to define a general mechanism for Python to install scripts ?
> 2 - are you just suggesting to have this mechanism only for Package Managers ?

3 - I want current "best practice" for installing Python modules with
dependencies from PyPI to be shipped with Python 2.7 by default

Answering your questions:
1. I want to have some user-friendly way for installing Python
scripts, but I am more concerned that I will miss `easy_install` in
Python 2.7
2. Bootstrap script is aimed at users. Package managers are assumed to
already have their package
at PyPI and provide install instructions that involve `easy_install`,
so nothing is required to be done on their part.

>
> In case of 2), what you would need to do is propose an extension to
> PEP 376, we are currently working
> on, then we can add it there once people have discussed it on
> distutils-SIG, or maybe create a new PEP if the topic is too big to
> fit in 376.

PEP 376 is completely irrelevant to user side boot package proposal.
This proposal is to recommend whatever package managing tool you think
user need and instruct how to get the tool. The boot package doesn't
know anything at all about how packages are managed.


>> P.S. Please be careful to reply to relevant lists
>
> Yes, so if it's 2) let's keep this thread in Distutils-SIG.
> Cross-posting like this makes it hard to follow.

My vision is that decision about having bootstrap package or not in
2.7 should be in python-dev and specific packaging, implementation and
pip/distutils/distribute questions in distutils-sig.

-- 
anatoly t.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Tarek Ziadé]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:02 AM, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
[..]
> distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
> anything even about installed packages, not saying anything about
> dependencies.

At this point, no one knows anything about installed packages at the
Python level.
Keeping track of installed projects is a feature done within each
package managment system.

And the whole purpose of PEP 376 is to define a database of what's
installed, for the sake of interoperability.

>
> `pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
> users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -

Depending on how you call a Python user, I disagree here. Many people
use pip and distribute.

The first one because it has an uninstall feature among other things.
The second one because it fixes some bugs of setuptools and provides
Python 3 support


>
> For now there are two questions:
> 1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
> `easy_install` tool?
> 2. Which one is the recommended?
>
> P.S. Should there be an accessible FAQ in addition to ML?

This FAQ work has been started in th "HitchHicker's guide to
Packaging" you can find here:

http://guide.python-distribute.org

[..]
> No. To get something in 2.7 I would refrain from developing into this
> direction for now.
>
>> [..]
>>> So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
>>> reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?
>>
>> I see two paths here:
>> 1 - do you want to define a general mechanism for Python to install scripts ?
>> 2 - are you just suggesting to have this mechanism only for Package Managers 
>> ?
>
> 3 - I want current "best practice" for installing Python modules with
> dependencies from PyPI to be shipped with Python 2.7 by default

Again, any new code work will not happen because 2.7 is due in less
than a week. Things are happening in Distutils2.

Now, for the "best practice" documentation, I think the guide is the
best plce to look at.


[..]
> PEP 376 is completely irrelevant to user side boot package proposal.

It is, since it proposes an uninstall script called via -m. So having
a install script called by -m is definitely its business.


> My vision is that decision about having bootstrap package or not in
> 2.7 should be in python-dev and specific packaging, implementation and
> pip/distutils/distribute questions in distutils-sig.

If the mentioned bootstrap script is about a package managment system,
you should keep the discussion in distutils-SIG I think.

Regards
Tarek

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Tarek Ziadé]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
[..]
> Depending on how you call a Python user, I disagree here. Many people
> use pip and distribute.

s/how/who :)
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

2010/3/29 Lennart Regebro :
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:30, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
>> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
>> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
>> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.
>
> We can't ship *A* bootstrap script until there is *A* package
> management tool in the Python world. Currently there are three. :)
>
> In short: The tools that exist are not ready yet.

Ok. How about shipping bootstrap script only for `easy_install` tool for now?

-- 
anatoly t.
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Tarek Ziadé]

2010/3/29 anatoly techtonik :
> 2010/3/29 Lennart Regebro :
>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 09:30, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
>>> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
>>> when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
>>> `easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.
>>
>> We can't ship *A* bootstrap script until there is *A* package
>> management tool in the Python world. Currently there are three. :)
>>
>> In short: The tools that exist are not ready yet.
>
> Ok. How about shipping bootstrap script only for `easy_install` tool for now?

-1

I don't see how this will improve the current state. It will make it
worse since the future of packaging for the stldib is being built in
distutils2, and also in Pip.

People that want to use easy_install can install it. It's very simple
and doesn't require more work than what you have described through a
-m call.

The instructions you want to add in that bootstrap script to inform
people belong to the documentation imho. And that's one of the goal of
the packaging guide we are building.

Another suggestion could be to add in the Python installer a notice
about the guide, saying :

"Hey, we are working on packaging right now. Python currently doesn't
ship with a full-featured package manager, you can have a look in this
guide though, for guidance"

I still think you should remove python-dev from the cc list  ;)

Tarek

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Re: [Python-Dev] Request for commit access

[Nick Coghlan]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>> That's an ideal case, but it doesn't work, because more or less senior
>> committers are already too busy. If they do not even have time to
>> review issues, followup on patches  - how can they monitor who reached
>> the appropriate karma level?
> 
> The practice proves to be different. In the recent additions, the new
> developer had been approached by some committer, suggesting that they
> apply. So the initiative actually started from a committer who thought
> that the karma level was appropriate. All I'm asking for is that then
> this committer takes the issues in his own hands, rather than letting
> the new developer ask for himself.

Agreed, since there is a bit of a commitment on the sponsor's part to
help coach the new committer in the early days (most new committers
don't need much coaching, but it's still good practice to have a
specific existing committer looking at their work for a while, in
addition to those of us that just try to review everything that goes by
on the checkin list).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] r79397 - in python/trunk: Doc/c-api/capsule.rst Doc/c-api/cobject.rst Doc/c-api/concrete.rst Doc/data/refcounts.dat Doc/extending/extending.rst Include/Python.h Incl

[Nick Coghlan]

Larry Hastings wrote:
> * allow the CObject API to (unsafely) dereference a capsule
> * add support for the new files added by capsule to the Visual
>   Studio builds (fixes an unrelated second complaint about my checkin)
> * add a -3 warning for calls to CObject
> * add a PendingDeprecation warning to CObject

The last item probably isn't necessary given the -3 warning.

Cheers,
Nick.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Nick Coghlan]

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
> and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
> before:

Until the discussed package management tools support a robust inventory
and uninstallation system that plays well with directly installed Python
packages, you won't find widespread support on python-dev for endorsing
any of them.

Yes, the people who use them love them for good and valid reasons, but
those who absolutely detest them also do so for good and valid reasons.
While this is still the case, it would be highly inappropriate for
python-dev to include bootstrap scripts that direct users to these
systems, as they're all flawed in their current incarnations (this isn't
the packaging systems' fault - the flaws are largely due to a lack of
supporting infrastructure in the standard library).

The distutils2 work and the various metadata PEPs that have been
approved recently are all about addressing those limitations in the
infrastructure. With those in place and flowing through the Python
package management ecosystem, bootstrapping interoperable package
management tools is likely to become a reasonable option in the future.
But we aren't there yet, and won't be for 2.7 or 3.2. From an outsider's
perspective, the 3.3 time frame appears to be very possible though.

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] GSoC 2010 is on -- projects?

[C. Titus Brown]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:40:06AM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> I would vote for allowing student work on community infrastructure
> tasks. Tracker, Wiki, Web site management tools are all outdated and
> everybody who cares agrees that they've seen a better tools.

As long as it's programming, it's allowed by Google.  So let's find a good
student or two, and outline a few good projects!

I do worry that that kind of work is difficult to evaluate, and requires really
great communication on both sides...

--titus
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
> [..]
>> distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
>> anything even about installed packages, not saying anything about
>> dependencies.
>
> At this point, no one knows anything about installed packages at the
> Python level.

Users do not care about this, and `distutils` doesn't know this even
at package level.

> Keeping track of installed projects is a feature done within each
> package managment system.
>
> And the whole purpose of PEP 376 is to define a database of what's
> installed, for the sake of interoperability.

That's great. When it will be ready everybody would be happy to make
their package management tool compliant.

>>
>> `pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
>> users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -
>
> Depending on how you call a Python user, I disagree here. Many people
> use pip and distribute.
>
> The first one because it has an uninstall feature among other things.
> The second one because it fixes some bugs of setuptools and provides
> Python 3 support

I do not mind if we can distribute three stubs, they will also serve
as pointers for a better way of packaging when an ultimate tool is
finally born. Me personally is willing to elaborate for `easy_install`
stub in 2.7.

>>
>> For now there are two questions:
>> 1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
>> `easy_install` tool?
>> 2. Which one is the recommended?
>>
>> P.S. Should there be an accessible FAQ in addition to ML?
>
> This FAQ work has been started in th "HitchHicker's guide to
> Packaging" you can find here:
>
> http://guide.python-distribute.org

I can see any FAQ. To me the FAQ is something that could be posted to
distutils ML once a month to reflect current state of packaging. It
should also carry version number. So anybody can comment on the FAQ,
ask another question or ask to make a change.

> Again, any new code work will not happen because 2.7 is due in less
> than a week. Things are happening in Distutils2.

That doesn't solve the problem. Bootstrap script can be written in one
day. What we need is a consensus whatever this script is welcomed in
2.7 or not? Who is the person to make the decision?

> Now, for the "best practice" documentation, I think the guide is the
> best plce to look at.

Let's refer to original user story:
"I installed Python and need a quick way to install my packages on top of it."
"I execute `easy_install something` as said in installation manual,
but nothing/error happens."

> [..]
>> PEP 376 is completely irrelevant to user side boot package proposal.
>
> It is, since it proposes an uninstall script called via -m. So having
> a install script called by -m is definitely its business.

The scope of my proposal is a bootstrap script that instructs user how
to install the package management tool of user's choice if this tool
is not yet installed on user system (this is the case with new Python
installation).  If you'll come up with a better way of package
management - you will update this bootstrap script with relevant
information in future Python releases.

Right now it is essential to get this _feature_ in Python 2.7 until
2.7 is frozen for new features. The script that shows message upon
invocation and is overwritten by the version of the package it
proposes to install. Is it hard to do?

>> My vision is that decision about having bootstrap package or not in
>> 2.7 should be in python-dev and specific packaging, implementation and
>> pip/distutils/distribute questions in distutils-sig.
>
> If the mentioned bootstrap script is about a package managment system,
> you should keep the discussion in distutils-SIG I think.

If there will be no bootstrap script in 2.7, I won't have any
motivation to continue discussion until 2.8 deadline is near. Of
course I will be disappointed, because I will have to explain
everything to 2.7 users again and again instead of letting them
execute one command and follow its instructions.
-- 
anatoly t.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Tarek Ziadé]

Anatoly, I am now answering only in Distutils-SIG.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:45 PM, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
[..]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Ron Adam]

anatoly techtonik wrote:

So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
before:

  "search" -> "download" -> "unzip" -> "cmd" -> "cd" -> "python
setup.py install"


Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
when users tries to use it. So far I know only one stable tool -
`easy_install` - a part of `setuptools` package.

The required behavior for very basic user friendliness:
1. user installs Python 2.7
2. user issues `python -m easy_install something`
3. user gets message
'easy_install' tool is not installed on this system. To make it
available, download and install `setuptools` package from
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/setuptools/

4. the screen is paused before exit (for windows systems)

Other design notes:
1. if package tries to import `easy_install` module used for
bootstrap, it gets the same ImportException as if there were no
`easy_install` at all
2. bootstrap module is overwritten by actual package when users installs it


So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?


P.S. Please be careful to reply to relevant lists


An even lighter option would be to add an item to pythons 'help' feature.

Currently help("PACKAGES") == help("import")

It may be enough at this time to add a "PACKAGES" help entry that gives an 
overview of packages and hints on installing them.  Then "import" can be a 
related help topic for "PACKAGES".


Ron







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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Lennart Regebro]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:02, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
> distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
> anything even about installed packages

With that definition, there are no packaga management tools for
Python. So it's going to be pretty hard to ship one with 2.7.

> `pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
> users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -
> it can be said in bootstrap package message. There is no problem with
> packages that require `setuptools` either - they will require
> `setuptools` as dependency anyway.
>
> For now there are two questions:
> 1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
> `easy_install` tool?

Yes. But that's the wrong question. The correct question is: Are they
stable enough to be included in standard library. And the answer is
"no".

> 2. Which one is the recommended?

Both.

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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[David Cournapeau]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:45 PM, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
>> [..]
>>> distutils is not a `package management` tool, because it doesn't know
>>> anything even about installed packages, not saying anything about
>>> dependencies.
>>
>> At this point, no one knows anything about installed packages at the
>> Python level.
>
> Users do not care about this, and `distutils` doesn't know this even
> at package level.
>
>> Keeping track of installed projects is a feature done within each
>> package managment system.
>>
>> And the whole purpose of PEP 376 is to define a database of what's
>> installed, for the sake of interoperability.
>
> That's great. When it will be ready everybody would be happy to make
> their package management tool compliant.
>
>>>
>>> `pip` and `distribute` are unknown for a vast majority of Python
>>> users, so if you have a perspective replacement for `easy_install` -
>>
>> Depending on how you call a Python user, I disagree here. Many people
>> use pip and distribute.
>>
>> The first one because it has an uninstall feature among other things.
>> The second one because it fixes some bugs of setuptools and provides
>> Python 3 support
>
> I do not mind if we can distribute three stubs, they will also serve
> as pointers for a better way of packaging when an ultimate tool is
> finally born. Me personally is willing to elaborate for `easy_install`
> stub in 2.7.
>
>>>
>>> For now there are two questions:
>>> 1. Are they stable enough for the replacement of user command line
>>> `easy_install` tool?
>>> 2. Which one is the recommended?
>>>
>>> P.S. Should there be an accessible FAQ in addition to ML?
>>
>> This FAQ work has been started in th "HitchHicker's guide to
>> Packaging" you can find here:
>>
>> http://guide.python-distribute.org
>
> I can see any FAQ. To me the FAQ is something that could be posted to
> distutils ML once a month to reflect current state of packaging. It
> should also carry version number. So anybody can comment on the FAQ,
> ask another question or ask to make a change.
>
>> Again, any new code work will not happen because 2.7 is due in less
>> than a week. Things are happening in Distutils2.
>
> That doesn't solve the problem. Bootstrap script can be written in one
> day. What we need is a consensus whatever this script is welcomed in
> 2.7 or not? Who is the person to make the decision?
>
>> Now, for the "best practice" documentation, I think the guide is the
>> best plce to look at.
>
> Let's refer to original user story:
> "I installed Python and need a quick way to install my packages on top of it."

python setup.py install works well, and has for almost a decade.

If you need setuptools, you can include ez_setup.py, which does
exactly what you want, without adding a hugely controversial feature
to python proper. You do something like:

try:
 import setuptools
except ImportError:
 print "Run ez_setup.py first"
 

And you're done,

cheers,

David
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Lennart Regebro]

2010/3/29 anatoly techtonik :
> Ok. How about shipping bootstrap script only for `easy_install` tool for now?

Since there are many who are of the opinion that easy_install isn't
very good, and pip should be used instead, that would be a bad idea.


Just drop it. 2.7 will not have a package management tool or bootstrap
script to one, because there is currently not one that is good enough
to be the standard. People are working on making the situation good
enough, this debate is wasting their time.

The end.

-- 
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[Python-Dev] Google Groups mirror (Was: Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
> Anatoly, I am now answering only in Distutils-SIG.
>
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:45 PM, anatoly techtonik  
> wrote:
> [..]

Seems like I start to hate mailing lists even more with all this
message duplication and thread following nightmare. Why can't people
here create a Google Groups mirror?

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Google Groups mirror (Was: Bootstrap s cript for package management tool in Python 2.7)

[Antoine Pitrou]

anatoly techtonik  gmail.com> writes:
> 
> Seems like I start to hate mailing lists even more with all this
> message duplication and thread following nightmare. Why can't people
> here create a Google Groups mirror?

There are already gmane mirrors, such as:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel

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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

2010/3/29 Nick Coghlan :
> anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
>> and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
>> before:
>
> Until the discussed package management tools support a robust inventory
> and uninstallation system that plays well with directly installed Python
> packages, you won't find widespread support on python-dev for endorsing
> any of them.

This wasn't the question, but the summary. I would greatly appreciate
if you could provide your feedback on the second part of my letter
that started with "Therefore..."


> Yes, the people who use them love them for good and valid reasons, but
> those who absolutely detest them also do so for good and valid reasons.
> While this is still the case, it would be highly inappropriate for
> python-dev to include bootstrap scripts that direct users to these

Scripts do not _direct_ users - they _help_ users, already directed by
some installation instruction or tutorial, to find and install package
management system they are _trying_ to use.

> The distutils2 work and the various metadata PEPs that have been
> approved recently are all about addressing those limitations in the
> infrastructure. With those in place and flowing through the Python
> package management ecosystem, bootstrapping interoperable package
> management tools is likely to become a reasonable option in the future.

Bootstrap tools evolve together with packaging situation. You may
deprecate package management tool in your future bootstrap scripts if
it is "incompatible" with this Python release. It is just user message
that is a flexible as the mind of its author.

> But we aren't there yet, and won't be for 2.7 or 3.2. From an outsider's
> perspective, the 3.3 time frame appears to be very possible though.

Just a thought about user story my customers would likely write if I
shipped Python as a product:
"As a user, I think Python is suxx, because it makes its users suffer
for a long time from packaging disorder".

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Lennart Regebro]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 16:21, anatoly techtonik  wrote:
> Just a thought about user story my customers would likely write if I
> shipped Python as a product:
> "As a user, I think Python is suxx, because it makes its users suffer
> for a long time from packaging disorder".

So fix it. Python is open source. It's created by it's users. If there
is something you think it lacking, you step up and help make it
better.

But the packaging solution will not be ready for 2.7. It's a really
hard problem. Your help is appreciated. Complaints are not.

-- 
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Python 3 Porting: http://python-incompatibility.googlecode.com/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Google Groups mirror (Was: Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> anatoly techtonik  gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Seems like I start to hate mailing lists even more with all this
>> message duplication and thread following nightmare. Why can't people
>> here create a Google Groups mirror?
>
> There are already gmane mirrors, such as:
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel

Do you use it yourself for thread subscription?

My point is that gmane mouse clicking interface is insane. They can
not fold quotations. And if you'll look attentively you won't find
most of messages from ongoing discussion about bootstrap script for
package management.
-- 
anatoly t.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Google Groups mirror (Was: Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7)

[Antoine Pitrou]

> > There are already gmane mirrors, such as:
> > http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel
> 
> Do you use it yourself for thread subscription?

I don't think there's any "thread subscription", if you mean subscribing
to individual threads.

> My point is that gmane mouse clicking interface is insane. They can
> not fold quotations.

Neither can some e-mail clients. It's up to posters to quote (that is,
strip quotes) properly.
Gmane also allows you to use NNTP, though, perhaps you can find an NNTP
client which has the desired quoting UI :)

> And if you'll look attentively you won't find
> most of messages from ongoing discussion about bootstrap script for
> package management.

Yes, gmane seems to have some strange "duplicate suppression" algorithm
which doesn't go well with cross-posting.



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Re: [Python-Dev] Why is nan != nan?

[Robert Kern]

On 2010-03-29 01:17 AM, David Cournapeau wrote:

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Robert Kern  wrote:

On 2010-03-27 00:32 , David Cournapeau wrote:


On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Raymond Hettinger
wrote:


On Mar 26, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:

How about raising an exception instead of creating nans in the first
place,
except maybe within specific contexts (so that the IEEE-754 minded can
get
their nans working as they currently do)?

-1
The numeric community uses NaNs as placeholders in vectorized
calculations.


But is this relevant to python itself ? In Numpy, we indeed do use and
support NaN, but we have much more control on what happens compared to
python float objects. We can control whether invalid operations raises
an exception or not, we had isnan/isfinite for a long time, and the
fact that nan != nan has never been a real problem AFAIK.


Nonetheless, the closer our float arrays are to Python's float type, the
happier I will be.


Me too, but I don't see how to reconcile this with the intent of
simplifying nan handling because they are not intuitive, which seems
to be the goal of this discussion.


"Do nothing" is still on the table, I think.

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco

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[Python-Dev] OOP On Web

[Pry, Jeffrey]

Hello,

Nice to meet everyone!

I have two files (class.py and object.py). Now, within object.py I create two 
objects from the class.py file. The class.py file contains the necessary code 
to make a connection to a FTP server. The two objects pass the credentials, 
etc. My question is, if I wanted to display a dropdown box on a webpage listing 
all instances of the object (most likely five servers), how would I do that. 
Would I do it at the class level, the object level, or at some other level. 
Forgive me if this is a somewhat basic question.

Thank you for your help!

Jeffrey Kevin Pry


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Neither this message nor any attachment is intended as or should be construed 
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their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to the completeness or 
accuracy of any of the information contained herein or that this message or any 
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Re: [Python-Dev] OOP On Web

[Michael Foord]

On 29/03/2010 16:02, Pry, Jeffrey wrote:


Hello,

Nice to meet everyone!



Hello Jeffrey,

This mailing list is for the development *of* Python, not for developing 
*with* Python. More appropriate places to ask are the Python-tutor 
mailing list or the comp.lang.python newsgroup. Both of these have 
google and gmane web interfaces as well I believe.


You can find more information at:

http://www.python.org/community/lists/

All the best,

Michael Foord

I have two files (class.py and object.py). Now, within object.py I 
create two objects from the class.py file. The class.py file contains 
the necessary code to make a connection to a FTP server. The two 
objects pass the credentials, etc. My question is, if I wanted to 
display a dropdown box on a webpage listing all instances of the 
object (most likely five servers), how would I do that. Would I do it 
at the class level, the object level, or at some other level. Forgive 
me if this is a somewhat basic question.


Thank you for your help!

Jeffrey Kevin Pry



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please notify the sender immediately by reply and immediately delete 
this message and all its attachments. Any review, use, reproduction, 
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unintended recipient is strictly prohibited. Neither this message nor 
any attachment is intended as or should be construed as an offer, 
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financial instrument. Neither the sender, his or her employer nor any 
of their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to the 
completeness or accuracy of any of the information contained herein or 
that this message or any of its attachments is free of viruses.



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Re: [Python-Dev] OOP On Web

[Oleg Broytman]

Hello.

   We'are sorry but we cannot help you. This mailing list is to work on
developing Python (fixing bugs and adding new features to Python itself); if
you're having problems using Python, please find another forum. Probably
python-list (comp.lang.python) news group/mailing list is the best place.
See http://www.python.org/community/lists/ for other lists/news groups/fora.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:02:13AM -0400, Pry, Jeffrey wrote:
Thank you for understanding.
> Hello,
> 
> Nice to meet everyone!
> 
> I have two files (class.py and object.py). Now, within object.py I create two 
> objects from the class.py file. The class.py file contains the necessary code 
> to make a connection to a FTP server. The two objects pass the credentials, 
> etc. My question is, if I wanted to display a dropdown box on a webpage 
> listing all instances of the object (most likely five servers), how would I 
> do that. Would I do it at the class level, the object level, or at some other 
> level. Forgive me if this is a somewhat basic question.
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> 
> Jeffrey Kevin Pry
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT: The information contained in this email and/or its attachments is 
> confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
> immediately by reply and immediately delete this message and all its 
> attachments. Any review, use, reproduction, disclosure or dissemination of 
> this message or any attachment by an unintended recipient is strictly 
> prohibited. Neither this message nor any attachment is intended as or should 
> be construed as an offer, solicitation or recommendation to buy or sell any 
> security or other financial instrument. Neither the sender, his or her 
> employer nor any of their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to 
> the completeness or accuracy of any of the information contained herein or 
> that this message or any of its attachments is free of viruses.

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Oleg.
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[Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Michael Foord]

Hello all,

Python 3 includes a WeakSet implementation. Any objections to me 
backporting this to 2.7?


http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html#weakref.WeakSet

I needed this in unittest and used a WeakKeyDictionary instead.

Michael

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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Larry Hastings]

anatoly techtonik wrote:

So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
before:

  "search" -> "download" -> "unzip" -> "cmd" -> "cd" -> "python
setup.py install"


Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
when users tries to use it.


For what it's worth, Guido prototyped something similar in March of 
2008, but his was an actual bootstrapping tool for package management:


   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-March/077837.html

His tool knew how to download a tar file, untar it, and run "python 
setup.py install" on it.  No version numbers, no dependency management, 
simple enough that it should be easy to get right.  Only appropriate for 
bootstrapping into a real package management tool.


The thread ends with him saying "I don't have time to deal with this 
further this week", and I dunno, maybe it just fell off the radar?  I'd 
been thinking about resurrecting the discussion but I didn't have time 
either.


I fear it is too late for 2.7,


//larry//
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Re: [Python-Dev] Google Groups mirror (Was: Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7)

[skip]

anatoly> Why can't people here create a Google Groups mirror?

Whoever "people here" are could, I suppose.  I wouldn't mind a read-only
mirror but would not be a fan of a two-way mirror because Google seems to do
an awful job of weeding out spam.

In any case, the correct place to submit such a request would be
postmas...@python.org.  

Skip

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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Daniel Stutzbach]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

> Python 3 includes a WeakSet implementation. Any objections to me
> backporting this to 2.7?
>
> http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html#weakref.WeakSet
>

Backporting WeakSet would also make it possible to backport the fix for this
reference leak:

http://bugs.python.org/issue2521
--
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President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC 
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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Michael Foord]

On 29/03/2010 18:16, Michael Foord wrote:

Hello all,

Python 3 includes a WeakSet implementation. Any objections to me 
backporting this to 2.7?


http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html#weakref.WeakSet

I needed this in unittest and used a WeakKeyDictionary instead.


Hmmm... I was under the mistaken impression that this was implemented in 
pure-Python. It's in C so beyond my threshold for simple porting I'm 
afraid. Still if someone else is up for it...


All the best,

Michael



Michael




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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Michael Foord]

On 29/03/2010 19:14, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Michael Foord 
mailto:mich...@voidspace.org.uk>> wrote:


Python 3 includes a WeakSet implementation. Any objections to me
backporting this to 2.7?

http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html#weakref.WeakSet


Backporting WeakSet would also make it possible to backport the fix 
for this reference leak:


http://bugs.python.org/issue2521


It should be possible to fix it with a WeakKeyDictionary instead of WeakSet.

All the best,

Michael Foord


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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Daniel Stutzbach]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

> It should be possible to fix it with a WeakKeyDictionary instead of
> WeakSet.
>

True.  I should have said "Backporting WeakSet would make it *easier* to
backport the fix ..." :-)
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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Michael Foord]

On 29/03/2010 20:20, Michael Foord wrote:

On 29/03/2010 18:16, Michael Foord wrote:

Hello all,

Python 3 includes a WeakSet implementation. Any objections to me 
backporting this to 2.7?


http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html#weakref.WeakSet

I needed this in unittest and used a WeakKeyDictionary instead.


Hmmm... I was under the mistaken impression that this was implemented 
in pure-Python. It's in C so beyond my threshold for simple porting 
I'm afraid. Still if someone else is up for it...


No, my mistake - it *is* implemented in Python. I'm porting it now.

Michael



All the best,

Michael



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Re: [Python-Dev] [Distutils] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Martin v. Löwis]

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
> and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
> before:
[...]
> So, do we need a PEP for that? How else can I know if consensus is
> reached? Anybody is willing to elaborate on implementation?

Notice that the first beta release of Python 2.7 will be made on April
3. Any new feature that you propose must be committed by then.

I suggest focusing on Python 3.2 instead.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] WeakSet in Python 2.7

[Michael Foord]

On 29/03/2010 20:46, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Michael Foord 
mailto:mich...@voidspace.org.uk>> wrote:


It should be possible to fix it with a WeakKeyDictionary instead
of WeakSet.


True.  I should have said "Backporting WeakSet would make it *easier* 
to backport the fix ..." :-)


WeakSet is now in.

Michael


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Re: [Python-Dev] Bootstrap script for package management tool in Python 2.7 (Was: Re: [Distutils] At least one package management tool for 2.7)

[Ian Bicking]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Larry Hastings  wrote:

> anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
>> So, there won't be any package management tool shipped with Python 2.7
>> and users will have to download and install `setuptools` manually as
>> before:
>>
>>  "search" -> "download" -> "unzip" -> "cmd" -> "cd" -> "python
>> setup.py install"
>>
>>
>> Therefore I still propose shipping bootstrap package that instruct
>> user how to download and install an actual package  management tool
>> when users tries to use it.
>>
>
> For what it's worth, Guido prototyped something similar in March of 2008,
> but his was an actual bootstrapping tool for package management:
>
>   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-March/077837.html
>
> His tool knew how to download a tar file, untar it, and run "python
> setup.py install" on it.  No version numbers, no dependency management,
> simple enough that it should be easy to get right.  Only appropriate for
> bootstrapping into a real package management tool.
>
> The thread ends with him saying "I don't have time to deal with this
> further this week", and I dunno, maybe it just fell off the radar?  I'd been
> thinking about resurrecting the discussion but I didn't have time either.
>

I would consider this bootstrap to be quite workable, though I would add
that any extra option to the bootstrap script should be passed to setup.py
install, and the download should be cached (so you can do -h and not have to
re-download the package once you figure out the extra options -- at least a
--user option is reasonable here for people without root).  Specifically
targeting this bootstrap for tools like pip and virtualenv is no problem.

I think looking around PyPI etc is kind of more than I'd bother with.  Those
things change, this bootstrap code won't change, it could cause unnecessary
future pain.  Maybe (*maybe*) it could look in
http://pypi.python.org/well-known-packages/PACKAGE_NAME and so we can have
it install a certain small number of things quickly that way -- if the URL
it looks to is targeted only for the bootstrap script itself then we don't
have to worry about compatibility problems as much.

Oh... then i can think of a half dozen other options it could take, and then
it becomes an installer.  Blech.  OK, I'd be willing to cut off the options
at --user (which I think is a minimum... maybe --prefix too), and maybe some
simple package detection so people could write "python -m boostrap
Setuptools --user" -- entirely based on some well-known URL baked into
bootstrap.py, where the URL is independent of any other service (and so is
least likely to cause future problems or ambiguities).

An advantage to this kind of bootstrapper is that as future packaging
systems are developed there's a clear way to get started with them, without
prematurely baking anything in to Python.

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[Python-Dev] Contribute

[Valerio Turturici]

Hello everyone,
my name's Valerio, i'm italian and i study computer science at 
University of Pisa. I'm honored to speak and learn from people like you.
My knowledge of C language is not very advanced, but i know Python well 
enough. I really like to contribute, i can learn and improve a lot. This 
is the first time that i participate in a serious, large and complex 
project.


Have you any advice for me? :)


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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[Benjamin Peterson]

2010/3/29 Valerio Turturici :
> Hello everyone,
> my name's Valerio, i'm italian and i study computer science at University of
> Pisa. I'm honored to speak and learn from people like you.
> My knowledge of C language is not very advanced, but i know Python well
> enough. I really like to contribute, i can learn and improve a lot. This is
> the first time that i participate in a serious, large and complex project.
>
> Have you any advice for me? :)

Pick a bug and provide a patch.



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Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[Nick Coghlan]

Valerio Turturici wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> my name's Valerio, i'm italian and i study computer science at
> University of Pisa. I'm honored to speak and learn from people like you.
> My knowledge of C language is not very advanced, but i know Python well
> enough. I really like to contribute, i can learn and improve a lot. This
> is the first time that i participate in a serious, large and complex
> project.
> 
> Have you any advice for me? :)

Head over to http://bugs.python.org and look for items with the "easy"
tag. Alternatively, look for items with attached patches and download,
apply and test them out to see if they work as advertised.

I think there's a page on the wiki with suggestions on how to get
started, but I don't have a link handy - hopefully someone else will
chime in with it.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[Michael Foord]

On 30/03/2010 00:06, Valerio Turturici wrote:

Hello everyone,
my name's Valerio, i'm italian and i study computer science at 
University of Pisa. I'm honored to speak and learn from people like you.
My knowledge of C language is not very advanced, but i know Python 
well enough. I really like to contribute, i can learn and improve a 
lot. This is the first time that i participate in a serious, large and 
complex project.


Have you any advice for me? :)


The #python-dev IRC channel on freenode is a useful place to hangout if 
you have realtime questions.


Michael




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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[skip]

Nick> I think there's a page on the wiki with suggestions on how to get
Nick> started, but I don't have a link handy - hopefully someone else
Nick> will chime in with it.

:ring: :ring: :ring:

http://www.python.org/dev/contributing/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[Matthew Wilkes]

On 2010-03-30, at 0006, Valerio Turturici wrote:


Have you any advice for me? :)


Also, have a look at Google's Summer of Code programme.  It is a good  
way to get involved with a large project.


Matthw
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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[Shashwat Anand]

Python should have something like gnome-love (
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLove ). Some bugs on bugzilla is tagged with
gnome-love which are fairly easy and especially created to help dive in new
developers.


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 4:00 AM,  wrote:

>
>Nick> I think there's a page on the wiki with suggestions on how to get
>Nick> started, but I don't have a link handy - hopefully someone else
>Nick> will chime in with it.
>
> :ring: :ring: :ring:
>
>http://www.python.org/dev/contributing/
>
> Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] Contribute

[skip]

Shashwat> Python should have something like gnome-love (
Shashwat> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLove ). Some bugs on bugzilla is
Shashwat> tagged with gnome-love which are fairly easy and especially
Shashwat> created to help dive in new developers.

I don't know what gnome love is (and would be hesitant to click on any such
links, especially at work) but on bugs.python.org such items are tagged
"easy".  Right on the front page is a link with the label "Show Easy".

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