[Python-Dev] datetime nanosecond support (ctd?)

2014-12-10 Thread Matthieu Bec 


newbie first post on this list, if what follows is of context ...

Hi all,

I'm struggling with issue per the subject, read different threads and 
issue http://bugs.python.org/issue15443 that started 2012 still opened 
as of today.


Isn't there a legitimate case for nanosecond support? it's all over the 
place in 'struct timespec' and maybe wrongly I always found python and C 
were best neighbors. That's for the notional aspect.


More practically, aren't we close enough yet with current hardware, PTP 
and the likes, this deserves more consideration?


Maybe this has been mentioned before but the limiting factor isn't just 
getting nanoseconds, but anything sub-microseconds wont work with the 
current format. OpcUA that I was looking right now has 10-th us 
resolution, so really cares about 100ns, but the datetime 1us simply 
wont cut it.


Regards,
Matthieu
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[Python-Dev] Access control for buildbot

2014-12-10 Thread jacob toft pedersen 
Hi there

I was visiting you buildbot page for inspiration and found that i apparently 
have the option to force stop/start all your builds without any access control.

You may want to put something to enforce access control?

/pedersen
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Re: [Python-Dev] Access control for buildbot

2014-12-10 Thread Trent Nelson 

On Dec 10, 2014, at 6:56 AM, jacob toft pedersen  wrote:

> Hi there
> 
> I was visiting you buildbot page for inspiration and found that i apparently 
> have the option to force stop/start all your builds without any access 
> control.
> 
> You may want to put something to enforce access control?
> 

Nah, as far as I know, no-one has abused it, and it’s definitely useful when 
you need to legitimately use it.


Trent.
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Re: [Python-Dev] datetime nanosecond support (ctd?)

2014-12-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 10 December 2014 at 16:31, Matthieu Bec  wrote:
>
> newbie first post on this list, if what follows is of context ...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm struggling with issue per the subject, read different threads and issue
> http://bugs.python.org/issue15443 that started 2012 still opened as of
> today.
>
> Isn't there a legitimate case for nanosecond support? it's all over the
> place in 'struct timespec' and maybe wrongly I always found python and C
> were best neighbors. That's for the notional aspect.

If you skip down to the more recent 2014 part of the discussion, the
use case has been accepted as valid, but the idea still needs a
concrete change proposal that addresses the various API design and
backwards compatibility issues that arise. Specifically, questions
like:

* preserving compatibility with passing in microsecond values
* how to accept nanosecond values
* how to correctly unpickle old datetime pickle values
* how to update strptime() and strftime()

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Access control for buildbot

2014-12-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 11 December 2014 at 00:08, Trent Nelson  wrote:
>
> On Dec 10, 2014, at 6:56 AM, jacob toft pedersen  wrote:
>
>> Hi there
>>
>> I was visiting you buildbot page for inspiration and found that i apparently 
>> have the option to force stop/start all your builds without any access 
>> control.
>>
>> You may want to put something to enforce access control?
>>
>
> Nah, as far as I know, no-one has abused it, and it’s definitely useful when 
> you need to legitimately use it.

There are controls on the permitted input for forced builds, and if
anyone starts being annoying with it, we have the option of just
disabling it entirely until we set up authentication for it.

Requiring authentication for the BuildBot triggers is likely an
improvement we should consider in the current infrastructure review
regardless, though.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[Python-Dev] python compile error on mac os x

2014-12-10 Thread 卓一抗 
hello, everybody ,i occur an ld error in my mac os x

python 3.4.2  gcc 4.8.2

/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/make Parser/pgen
gcc -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes  -L/usr/local/lib
-export-dynamic  Parser/acceler.o Parser/grammar1.o Parser/listnode.o
Parser/node.o Parser/parser.o Parser/bitset.o Parser/metagrammar.o
Parser/firstsets.o Parser/grammar.o Parser/pgen.o Objects/obmalloc.o
Python/dynamic_annotations.o Python/mysnprintf.o Python/pyctype.o
Parser/tokenizer_pgen.o Parser/printgrammar.o Parser/parsetok_pgen.o
Parser/pgenmain.o -ldl  -framework CoreFoundation -o Parser/pgen
ld: unknown option: -export-dynamic
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
make[1]: *** [Parser/pgen] Error 1
make: *** [Include/graminit.h] Error 2


how to solve this ?  anybody help me ?
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Re: [Python-Dev] python compile error on mac os x

2014-12-10 Thread Brett Cannon 
It would be better to file a bug at bugs.python.org so it's easier to track
the problem.

On Wed Dec 10 2014 at 11:37:30 AM 卓一抗  wrote:

> hello, everybody ,i occur an ld error in my mac os x
>
> python 3.4.2  gcc 4.8.2
>
> /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/make Parser/pgen
> gcc -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes  -L/usr/local/lib
> -export-dynamic  Parser/acceler.o Parser/grammar1.o Parser/listnode.o
> Parser/node.o Parser/parser.o Parser/bitset.o Parser/metagrammar.o
> Parser/firstsets.o Parser/grammar.o Parser/pgen.o Objects/obmalloc.o
> Python/dynamic_annotations.o Python/mysnprintf.o Python/pyctype.o
> Parser/tokenizer_pgen.o Parser/printgrammar.o Parser/parsetok_pgen.o
> Parser/pgenmain.o -ldl  -framework CoreFoundation -o Parser/pgen
> ld: unknown option: -export-dynamic
> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
> make[1]: *** [Parser/pgen] Error 1
> make: *** [Include/graminit.h] Error 2
>
>
> how to solve this ?  anybody help me ?
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Re: [Python-Dev] python compile error on mac os x

2014-12-10 Thread 卓一抗 
thank u very much.

2014-12-11 0:40 GMT+08:00 Brett Cannon :

> It would be better to file a bug at bugs.python.org so it's easier to
> track the problem.
>
> On Wed Dec 10 2014 at 11:37:30 AM 卓一抗  wrote:
>
>> hello, everybody ,i occur an ld error in my mac os x
>>
>> python 3.4.2  gcc 4.8.2
>>
>> /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr/bin/make Parser/pgen
>> gcc -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes  -L/usr/local/lib
>> -export-dynamic  Parser/acceler.o Parser/grammar1.o Parser/listnode.o
>> Parser/node.o Parser/parser.o Parser/bitset.o Parser/metagrammar.o
>> Parser/firstsets.o Parser/grammar.o Parser/pgen.o Objects/obmalloc.o
>> Python/dynamic_annotations.o Python/mysnprintf.o Python/pyctype.o
>> Parser/tokenizer_pgen.o Parser/printgrammar.o Parser/parsetok_pgen.o
>> Parser/pgenmain.o -ldl  -framework CoreFoundation -o Parser/pgen
>> ld: unknown option: -export-dynamic
>> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
>> make[1]: *** [Parser/pgen] Error 1
>> make: *** [Include/graminit.h] Error 2
>>
>>
>> how to solve this ?  anybody help me ?
>> ___
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>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/
>> brett%40python.org
>>
>
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[Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

2014-12-10 Thread Bruno Cauet 
Hi all,
Last year a survey was conducted on python 2 and 3 usage.
Here is the 2014 edition, slightly updated (from 9 to 11 questions).
It should not take you more than 1 minute to fill. I would be pleased if
you took that time.

Here's the url: http://goo.gl/forms/tDTcm8UzB3
I'll publish the results around the end of the year.

Last year results: https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey

Thank you
Bruno
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

2014-12-10 Thread Donald Stufft 

> On Dec 10, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Bruno Cauet  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> Last year a survey was conducted on python 2 and 3 usage.
> Here is the 2014 edition, slightly updated (from 9 to 11 questions).
> It should not take you more than 1 minute to fill. I would be pleased if you 
> took that time.
> 
> Here's the url: http://goo.gl/forms/tDTcm8UzB3 
> 
> I'll publish the results around the end of the year.
> 
> Last year results: https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey 
> 

Just going to say http://d.stufft.io/image/0z1841112o0C 
 is a hard question to answer, since 
most code I write is both.

---
Donald Stufft
PGP: 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA

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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

2014-12-10 Thread Ian Cordasco 
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Donald Stufft  wrote:
>
> On Dec 10, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Bruno Cauet  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Last year a survey was conducted on python 2 and 3 usage.
> Here is the 2014 edition, slightly updated (from 9 to 11 questions).
> It should not take you more than 1 minute to fill. I would be pleased if you
> took that time.
>
> Here's the url: http://goo.gl/forms/tDTcm8UzB3
> I'll publish the results around the end of the year.
>
> Last year results: https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
>
>
> Just going to say http://d.stufft.io/image/0z1841112o0C is a hard question
> to answer, since most code I write is both.
>

The same holds for me.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

2014-12-10 Thread Nathaniel Smith 
On 10 Dec 2014 17:16, "Ian Cordasco"  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Donald Stufft  wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 10, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Bruno Cauet  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Last year a survey was conducted on python 2 and 3 usage.
> > Here is the 2014 edition, slightly updated (from 9 to 11 questions).
> > It should not take you more than 1 minute to fill. I would be pleased
if you
> > took that time.
> >
> > Here's the url: http://goo.gl/forms/tDTcm8UzB3
> > I'll publish the results around the end of the year.
> >
> > Last year results: https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
> >
> >
> > Just going to say http://d.stufft.io/image/0z1841112o0C is a hard
question
> > to answer, since most code I write is both.
> >
>
> The same holds for me.

That question appears to have just grown a "compatible with both" option.

It might make sense to add a similar option to the following question about
what you use for personal projects.

-n
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition

2014-12-10 Thread Bruno Cauet 
Remarks heard & form updated.
Nathaniel, I'm not sure about that: even if the code is 2- and 3-compatible
you'll pick one runtime. 2 others questions now mention writing polyglot
code.

By the way I published the survey on HN, /r/programming & /r/python:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8730156 http://redd.it/2ovlwm
http://redd.it/2ovls4
Feel free to publish it anywhere else, to get as many answers as possible.

Bruno

2014-12-10 18:24 GMT+01:00 Nathaniel Smith :

> On 10 Dec 2014 17:16, "Ian Cordasco"  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Donald Stufft 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Dec 10, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Bruno Cauet 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > > Last year a survey was conducted on python 2 and 3 usage.
> > > Here is the 2014 edition, slightly updated (from 9 to 11 questions).
> > > It should not take you more than 1 minute to fill. I would be pleased
> if you
> > > took that time.
> > >
> > > Here's the url: http://goo.gl/forms/tDTcm8UzB3
> > > I'll publish the results around the end of the year.
> > >
> > > Last year results: https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
> > >
> > >
> > > Just going to say http://d.stufft.io/image/0z1841112o0C is a hard
> question
> > > to answer, since most code I write is both.
> > >
> >
> > The same holds for me.
>
> That question appears to have just grown a "compatible with both" option.
>
> It might make sense to add a similar option to the following question
> about what you use for personal projects.
>
> -n
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] datetime nanosecond support (ctd?)

2014-12-10 Thread mdcb808 

On 12/10/14 7:33 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

On 10 December 2014 at 16:31, Matthieu Bec  wrote:

newbie first post on this list, if what follows is of context ...

Hi all,

I'm struggling with issue per the subject, read different threads and issue
http://bugs.python.org/issue15443 that started 2012 still opened as of
today.

Isn't there a legitimate case for nanosecond support? it's all over the
place in 'struct timespec' and maybe wrongly I always found python and C
were best neighbors. That's for the notional aspect.

If you skip down to the more recent 2014 part of the discussion, the
use case has been accepted as valid, but the idea still needs a
concrete change proposal that addresses the various API design and
backwards compatibility issues that arise. Specifically, questions
like:


Thanks Nick.

These are typically discussed on this list or using the bug tracker?

maybe YNGTNI applied, not clear why it's not there after 2 eyars.
I'm no expert but one could imagine something reasonably simple:

- a new type datetime.struct_timespec (a la time.struct_tm)
- a new constructor datetime.time(struct_timespec), so what already 
exists untouched
- pickle versioning using free bits, the new format that favors clarity 
over saving byte (as described in 15443)
- not sure what's at stake with the strp/ftime() but cant imagine it's a 
biggie


Regards,
Matthieu

* preserving compatibility with passing in microsecond values
* how to accept nanosecond values
* how to correctly unpickle old datetime pickle values
* how to update strptime() and strftime()

Cheers,
Nick.



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[Python-Dev] [RELEASE] Python 2.7.9

2014-12-10 Thread Benjamin Peterson 
It is my pleasure to announce the release of Python 2.7.9, a new bugfix
release in the Python 2.7 series. Despite technically being a
maintenance release, Python 2.7.9 includes several majors changes from
2.7.8:

- The "ensurepip" module has been backported to Python 2.7
- Python 3's ssl module has been backported to Python 2.7.
- HTTPS certificates are now verified by default using the system's
certificate store.
- SSLv3 has been disabled by default due to the POODLE attack.

Downloads are at
https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-279/

Please report bugs to
https://bugs.python.org/

I would  like to thank the people who made the above security and
usability improvements listed above possible. Among others, Alex Gaynor,
David Reid, Nick Coghlan, and Donald Stufft wrote many PEPs and a lot of
code to bring those features to 2.7.9. Thank you.

Enjoy,
Benjamin
2.7 release manager
on behalf on python-dev and all of Python's contributors
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Re: [Python-Dev] datetime nanosecond support (ctd?)

2014-12-10 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
mdcb808 writes:

 > These are typically discussed on this list or using the bug
 > tracker?

I think this discussion belongs on python-dev because the requirement
is clear, but a full specification involves backward compatibility
with older interfaces, and clearly different people place different
values on the various aspects of the problem.  It makes sense to go
straight to tracker when the design is done or obvious, or backward
compatibility is clearly not involved.  The tracker is also the place
to record objective progress (patches, tests, bug reports).
Python-Dev is where minds meet.

What Nick is saying is that more design needs to be done to resolve
differences of opinion on the best way to move forward.

 > maybe YNGTNI applied,

Evidently not.  If a senior developer really thought it's a YAGNI, the
issue would have been closed WONTFIX.  It seems the need is believable.

 > not clear why it's not there after 2 eyars.

There's only one reason you need to worry about: nobody wrote a patch
that meets the concerns of the senior developers (one of which is that
concerns raised by anybody remain unresolved; they don't always have
strong opinions themselves).[1]

 > - not sure what's at stake with the strp/ftime() but cant imagine
 >   it's a biggie

If you want something done, you don't necessarily need to supply a
patch.  But you have to do more to move things forward that just say
"I can't imagine why anybody worries about that."  You have to find
out what their worries are, and explain that their worries won't be
realized in the case of the obvious design (eg, the one you
presented), or provide a design that avoids realizing those worries.
Or you can get the senior developers to overrule the worriers, but you
need a relatively important use case to make that fly.

Or you can get somebody else to do some of the above, but that also
requires presenting an important use case (to that somebody).

Footnotes: 
[1]  That's not 100% accurate: there is a shortage of senior developer
time for reviewing patches.  If it's simply that nobody has looked at
the issue, simply bringing it up may be sufficient to get attention
and then action.  But Nick's response makes it clear that doesn't
apply to this issue; people have looked at the issue and have
unresolved concerns.

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