Of course, the argument wasn't that we should treat "good" and "bad" code equally (speaking of common tactics -- "straw man"). The point was that the words you use can make a huge difference. "Ugly" is very obviously a slur. It carries a dark meaning *and* it's still being actively used towards people. Honestly, I can't imagine someone cheering up when they see that word, especially if they're self-conscious about their appearance or were told they were "ugly" at some point of their life. It's my understanding that master/slave terminology is now deprecated, because these words carry dark meanings, too, and further alienate folks who feel uncomfortable being reminded of them everywhere. That's the idea of inclusivity: to make other people (usually from marginalized groups) feel welcome and safe. By removing/replacing the word "ugly", we could make one additional step towards being more inclusive. 13.09.2018, 19:36, "Nathaniel Smith" :> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Mark E. Haase wrote:>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:49 AM Rhodri James wrote:> More importantly, this whole idea of banning and/or changing terminology>>> is psychologically and sociologically wrong-headed. The moment you say "You>>> may not use that word" you create a taboo, and give the word a power that it>>> did not have before. Samantha posted this as a *proposal* to python-*ideas*, the mailing list>> where we purportedly discuss... umm... ideas. Samantha has not banned any>> words from Python, so let's tone down the hyperbole. These responses that assume Samantha is a troll are based on... what? Other>> posters on this list use Yandex e-mails, and nobody called those people>> trolls. And there are a lot of disagreements about ideas, and most of those>> people don't get called trolls, either. The Python CoC calls for *respect*,>> and I posit that the majority reaction to Samantha's first post has been>> disrespectful. Engage the post on the ideas—or ignore it altogether—but please don't>> automatically label newcomers with controversial ideas as trolls. Let's>> assume her proposal was made in good faith.>> It's not just automatically labeling newcomers with controversial> ideas – This is a very common tactic that online organized bigotry> groups use: invent fake "socially progressive" personas, and use them> to stir up arguments, undermine trust, split communities, etc. The> larger campaigns are pretty well documented:>> http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/06/16/_endfathersday_is_a_hoax_fox_news_claims_feminists_want_to_get_rid_of_father.html> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/your-slip-is-showing-4chan-trolls-operation-lollipop> https://birdeemag.com/free-bleeding-thing/> https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/femcon-4chan-convention-scam/> http://www.newnownext.com/clovergender-hoax-fake-prank-pharma-bro-martin-shkreli-4chan-troll/01/2017/>> Smaller-scale versions are also common – these people love to jump> into difficult conversations and try to make them more difficult.>> That said, in OP's case we don't actually know either way, and even> trolls can inadvertently suggest good ideas, so we should consider the> proposal on its merits.>> Applied to people, lookism is a real and honestly kind of horrifying> thing: humans who happen to be born with less symmetric faces get paid> worse, receive worse health care, all kinds of unfair things. It> wasn't too long ago that being sufficiently ugly in public was> actually illegal in many places:> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_law>> But even if we all agree that beautiful and ugly people should be> treated equally, I don't see how it follows that beautiful and ugly> buildings should be treated equally, or beautiful and ugly music> should be treated equally, or beautiful and ugly code should be> treated equally. The situations are totally different. Maybe there's> some connection I'm missing, and if anyone (Samantha?) has links to> deeper discussion then I'll happily take a look. But until then I'm> totally comfortable with keeping the Zen as-is. (And I'm someone> pretty far on the "SJW" side of the spectrum, and 100% in favor of> Victor's original PR.)>> -n>> --> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org> ___> Python-ideas mailing list> Python-ideas@python.org> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/___
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