Re: Python education survey

[Carl Smith]

On Dec 20, 10:58 am, Andrea Crotti andrea.crott...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:









  Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
  If not, what is the tool of choice?

  Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
  running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
  easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
  with a particular version of Python etc).

  Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
  free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
  and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
  completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
  an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
  (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).

  On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
  Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
  so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
  just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
  specify the startup directory.

  If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
  what IDE or editor do you recommend?

  Raymond

 I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience
 than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and
 for everything else there is python and python-mode.

 New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm
 or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs..

I agree; IPython is a excellent choice. You have a much more powerful
interactive Python experience, with all the features you need from an
IDE. You can use any editor (VIM) and you can also readily hack
IPython to death.

I think the fact that anyone with basic programming skills can
substantially enhance their console is a big winner in CS education.
It gives students something they personally value to work on, it's a
place to store all their little bits of code and actually benefit from
them in real life.

I've never met a programmer that got familiar with IPython and then
went on to stop using it. It should be included in the standard
library and used as the default Python interactive environment.

The last line of my .bashrc file:

ipython3
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Re: Python education survey

[Carl Smith]

On Dec 25, 5:44 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Dec 19, 9:51 pm, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
  If not, what is the tool of choice?

 I believe IDLE has the potential to be a very useful teaching tool and
 even in it's current abysmal state, i find it to be quite useful.

  Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
  running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
  easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
  with a particular version of Python etc).

 Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I
 know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has
 this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public
 discussion on the matter?

  Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
  free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
  and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
  completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
  an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
  (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).

 Yes, IDLE has all the basic tools anyone would need. Some people
 complain about a debugger, but i never use a debugger anyway. I feel
 debuggers just wreaken your debugging skills.

  On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
  Tcl/Tk support;

 And who's fault is that?

  some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
  so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
  just freezes for no reason.

 And who's fault is that?

   [IDLE] also doesn't have an easy way to
  specify the startup directory.

 Are you kidding me? That could be fixed so easily!

  If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
  what IDE or editor do you recommend?

 IDLE, of course. But NOT in its current state.

 Why would myself (or anyone) go to the trouble of downloading third
 party IDEs when IDLE is just waiting there for us to use? I for one,
 like to use tools that have open source code.  And what is a better
 Python IDE than a Python IDE written in PYTHON? I ask ya?

 Also, what is the purpose of this thread Raymond? Are you (and others)
 considering removing IDLE from the source distro?

 You know. Many folks in this community have known for a long time how
 much i love IDLE, but at the same time how much i loath it's atrocious
 code base. I also know for a fact, that many movers and shakers
 within this community simultaneously use IDLE, and want to see IDLE
 code improved. However. None of these fine folks have taken the time
 to contact me privately so we can discuss such an evolution. Why is
 that? It boggles the mind really.

Do people seriously use IDLE? I thought it was just there for
scratchers, like turtle.
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