Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-22 Thread Mark Lawrence 

On 22/08/2012 07:25, Bob Martin wrote:

in 679182 20120821 181439 Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:07:33 +0200, Alex Strickland 
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:


On 2012/08/17 12:42 AM, Madison May wrote:


As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.


I too, but I'd prefer something top-posted than have to skip through 38
pages of quoted e-mail to get to a (generally) 1 liner at the bottom.


Doesn't help me though... Agent shows quoted material as blue, fresh
text as black.

I tend to not see a one-liner at the top (since it is next to the
attribution line) and if the rest of the page is all blue text I hit
page down... and down, down, down... looking for black text... Then end
up going "Wha', where's the new stuff?" and having to scroll back up to
find a one-liner cuddling up with the attribution line.


Yep, and the only solution is for everyone to top-post.



The only solution is for people to use common sense.  At least one snag 
is that Voltaire said common sense is not so common.


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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-21 Thread Bob Martin 
in 679182 20120821 181439 Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:07:33 +0200, Alex Strickland 
>declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>> On 2012/08/17 12:42 AM, Madison May wrote:
>>
>> > As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.
>>
>> I too, but I'd prefer something top-posted than have to skip through 38
>> pages of quoted e-mail to get to a (generally) 1 liner at the bottom.
>
>Doesn't help me though... Agent shows quoted material as blue, fresh
>text as black.
>
>I tend to not see a one-liner at the top (since it is next to the
>attribution line) and if the rest of the page is all blue text I hit
>page down... and down, down, down... looking for black text... Then end
>up going "Wha', where's the new stuff?" and having to scroll back up to
>find a one-liner cuddling up with the attribution line.

Yep, and the only solution is for everyone to top-post.
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-21 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
On Tuesday, 21 August 2012 12:41:39 UTC+5:30, Jamie Paul Griffin  wrote:
> [ Ramchandra Apte wrote on Sat 18.Aug'12 at 19:21:03 +0530 ]
> 
> 
> 
> > I'll be using Google Groups (hopefully it won't top-post by default) to
> 
> > post stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> You are encouraged to get used to it i'm afraid as any mailing list you use, 
> its users will prefer you to use the correct formatting of responses. 
> 
> 
> 
> You can change the settings in Gmail web interface or use an MUA and 
> configure that.

Enough of OT.
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-21 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:07:33 +0200, Alex Strickland wrote:

> On 2012/08/17 12:42 AM, Madison May wrote:
> 
>> As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.
> 
> I too, but I'd prefer something top-posted than have to skip through 38
> pages of quoted e-mail to get to a (generally) 1 liner at the bottom.

+1000

People with Hotmail accounts used to be known as "Metoobees" because of 
their tendency to reply to long posts with a single line at the very end, 
"Me too!".


-- 
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-21 Thread Jamie Paul Griffin 
[ Ramchandra Apte wrote on Sat 18.Aug'12 at 19:21:03 +0530 ]

> I'll be using Google Groups (hopefully it won't top-post by default) to
> post stuff.

You are encouraged to get used to it i'm afraid as any mailing list you use, 
its users will prefer you to use the correct formatting of responses. 

You can change the settings in Gmail web interface or use an MUA and configure 
that.
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-20 Thread Alex Strickland 

On 2012/08/17 12:42 AM, Madison May wrote:


As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.


I too, but I'd prefer something top-posted than have to skip through 38 
pages of quoted e-mail to get to a (generally) 1 liner at the bottom.


--
Regards
Alex
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RE: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-20 Thread Prasad, Ramit 
> I'll be using Google Groups (hopefully it won't top-post by default) to post 
> stuff.

Thanks for not top-posting. Even if it is the default, it is 
not difficult to change. :)


Ramit


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RE: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-20 Thread Prasad, Ramit 
>Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
>GMail uses top-posting by default.
>I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.

He is most certainly not the only person to feel irritated nor 
even the only person who has requested you not to top post. 

He does happen to be the most persistent though.

Ramit

This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and
conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of
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confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers,
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-20 Thread Jean-Michel Pichavant 

Zero Piraeus wrote:

:

On 17 August 2012 21:43, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
  

There are cultures that marry five year old girls to sixty year old men,
cultures that treat throwing acid in the faces of women as acceptable
behaviour, cultures that allow war heroes to die of hunger and cold
homeless in the street, and cultures that top-post. What's your point?



+1 QOTW

 -[]z.
  

We're closer to the +1 godwin point

JM
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-20 Thread Mark Lawrence 

On 20/08/2012 08:46, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:31 PM, rusi  wrote:

On Aug 19, 12:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

is probably a really great person and kind to small animals and furry children, 
but...


ROFL!

The first we're all familiar with.

Furry children?

Something to do with heads the size of a planet?


Or it's a Wonka-esque "Wait. Scratch that. Reverse it" moment.

Of course Steven is a bit egotistical. That sort of happens when
you're better than 95% of the human population of this planet.

ChrisA



He's a long way to go to catch up with me then :)

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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-20 Thread Chris Angelico 
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
> On Aug 19, 12:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano  +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> is probably a really great person and kind to small animals and furry 
>> children, but...
>
> ROFL!
>
> The first we're all familiar with.
>
> Furry children?
>
> Something to do with heads the size of a planet?

Or it's a Wonka-esque "Wait. Scratch that. Reverse it" moment.

Of course Steven is a bit egotistical. That sort of happens when
you're better than 95% of the human population of this planet.

ChrisA
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-20 Thread rusi 
On Aug 19, 12:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> is probably a really great person and kind to small animals and furry 
> children, but...

ROFL!

The first we're all familiar with.

Furry children?

Something to do with heads the size of a planet?
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-19 Thread python 
Hi Steve,

> I don't think I'm some sort of hyper-evolved mega-genius with a brain the 
> size of a planet, I'm just some guy.

Based on reading thousands of your posts over the past 4 years, I'll
have to respectfully disagree with you on your assertion that you are
not some hyper-evolved genius with a brain the size of a planet. :)

I've learned a ton from reading your posts - so much so that I think my
brain is getting heavier[1].

Thank you and cheers!
Malcolm

>From a recent thread on this mailing list (hilarious)
http://onceuponatimeinindia.blogspot.in/2009/07/hard-drive-weight-increasing.html
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-19 Thread Chris Angelico 
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> The software equivalent of somebody handing you a "blank" piece of paper
> and turning it around to see if maybe there's something on the back.

Straight out of a Goon Show, that is. Heh.

ChrisA
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-19 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:27:10 -0700, rusi wrote:

> For example, my sister recently saw some of my mails and was mystified
> that I had sent back 'blank mails' until I explained and pointed out
> that my answers were interleaved into what was originally sent!

No offence to your sister, who I'm sure is probably a really great person 
and kind to small animals and furry children, but didn't she, you know, 
*investigate further* upon seeing something weird, namely a "blank" email?

As in, "Gosh, dearest brother has sent me an email without saying 
anything. That's weird. I hope he's alright? Maybe there's something a 
bit further down? Or a funny picture of a cat at the end? Or something? I 
better scroll down a bit further and see."

I'm not talking about "complicated tech stuff" like View > Message Source 
and trying to determine whether perhaps the MIME type is broken and 
there's an invisible attachment. I'm talking about almost the simplest 
thing in the friggin' world, *scrolling down and looking at what's there*.
The software equivalent of somebody handing you a "blank" piece of paper 
and turning it around to see if maybe there's something on the back.

Because that's what I do, and I don't think I'm some sort of hyper-
evolved mega-genius with a brain the size of a planet, I'm just some guy. 
Nobody needed to tell me "Hey dummy, the text you are looking for is a 
bit further down, keep reading." I just looked on my own, and saw the 
text on my own, and actually read it without being told to, and a little 
light bulb went on over my head and I went "Wow! People can actually 
write stuff in between other stuff! How did they do that?"

Now sure, I make allowances for 70 year olds who have never touched a 
computer before and have to ask "What's a scroll bar?" and "How do I use 
this mousey-pointer thing?" I assume your sister has minimal skills like 
"can scroll" and "knows how to read".

I'm not sure which is worse -- that perhaps I *am* some sort of mega-
genius and keep overestimating the difficulty of scroll-down-and-read for 
normal people, or that others have such short attention spans that 
anything that they can't see immediately in front of them might as well 
not exist. Either thought is rather depressing.



-- 
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-18 Thread rusi 
On Aug 18, 8:34 pm, Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2012-08-17, rusi  wrote:
>
> > I was in a corporate environment for a while.  And carried my
> > 'trim&interleave' habits there. And got gently scolded for seeming to
> > hide things!!
>
> I have, rarely, gotten the opposite raction from "corporate e-mailers"
> used to top posting.  I got one comment something like "That's cool
> how you interleaved your reponses -- it's like having a real
> conversation."

Well sure. If I could civilize people around me, God (or Darwin?)
would give me a medal.
Usually though, I find it expedient to remember G.B. Shaw's:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one
persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends
on the unreasonable man."

and then decide exactly how (un)reasonable to be in a given context.

[No claims to always succeed in these calibrations :-) ]
And which brings me back to the question of how best to tell new folk
about the netiquette around here.

I was once teaching C to a batch of first year students.  I was
younger then and being more passionate and less reasonable, I made a
rule that students should indent their programs correctly.
[Nothing like python in sight those days!]

A few days later there was a commotion.  Students appeared in class
with black-badges, complained to the head-of-department and what not.
Very perplexed I said: "Why?! I allowed you to indent in any which way
you like as long as you have some rules and follow them." I imagined
that I had been perfectly reasonable and lenient!

Only later did I realize that students did not understand
- how to indent
- why to indent
- what program structure meant

So when people top-post it seems reasonable to assume that they dont
know better before jumping to conclusions of carelessness, rudeness,
inattention etc.

For example, my sister recently saw some of my mails and was mystified
that I had sent back 'blank mails' until I explained and pointed out
that my answers were interleaved into what was originally sent!
Clearly she had only ever seen (and therefore expected) top-posted
mail-threads.  Like your 'corporate-emailer' she found it damn neat,
after the initiation.

Whether such simple unfamiliarity with culture is the case in the
particular case (this thread's discussion) I am not sure.  Good to
remember Hanlon's razor...
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-18 Thread Grant Edwards 
On 2012-08-17, rusi  wrote:

> I was in a corporate environment for a while.  And carried my
> 'trim&interleave' habits there. And got gently scolded for seeming to
> hide things!!

I have, rarely, gotten the opposite raction from "corporate e-mailers"
used to top posting.  I got one comment something like "That's cool
how you interleaved your reponses -- it's like having a real
conversation."

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Somewhere in Tenafly,
  at   New Jersey, a chiropractor
  gmail.comis viewing "Leave it to
   Beaver"!
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-18 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
On 17 August 2012 18:23, Hans Mulder  wrote:

> On 16/08/12 23:34:25, Walter Hurry wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:20:29 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/16/2012 11:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
> >>
> >>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> >>
> >> No he is not. Recheck all the the responses.
> >>
> >>> GMail uses top-posting by default.
> >>
> >> It only works if everyone does it.
> >>
> >>> I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
> >>
> >> Your out-of-context comments are harder to understand. I mostly do not
> >> read them.
> >
> > It's strange, but I don't even *see* his contributions (I am using a
> > regular newsreader - on comp.lang.python - and I don't have him in the
> > bozo bin). It doesn't sound as though I'm missing much.
>
> I don't see him either.  That is to say: my ISP doesn't have his
> posts in comp.lang.python,  The group gmane.comp.python.general
> on Gname has them. so if you're really curious, you can point
> your NNTP client at news.gmane.org.
>
> > But I'm just curious. Any idea why that would be the case?
>
> Maybe there's some kind of filer in the mail->usenet gateway?
>
> HTH,
>
> -- HansM
>
>
>  Let's not go overkill.
I'll be using Google Groups (hopefully it won't top-post by default) to
post stuff.

>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-18 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
I am aware of this. I'm just to lazy to use Google Groups! "Come on
Ramchandra, you can switch to Google Groups."

On 17 August 2012 13:09, rusi  wrote:

> On Aug 17, 3:36 am, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte 
> wrote:
> > > On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence 
> wrote:
> > >> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
> >
> > > Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> > > GMail uses top-posting by default.
> > > I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
> >
> > I post using gmail,
>
> If you register on the mailing list as well as google groups, you can
> then use googlegroups.
> Thereafter appropriately cutting out the unnecessary stuff is easy
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread Zero Piraeus 
:

On 17 August 2012 21:43, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> There are cultures that marry five year old girls to sixty year old men,
> cultures that treat throwing acid in the faces of women as acceptable
> behaviour, cultures that allow war heroes to die of hunger and cold
> homeless in the street, and cultures that top-post. What's your point?

+1 QOTW

 -[]z.
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:36:04 -0700, rusi wrote:

> I was in a corporate environment for a while.  And carried my
> 'trim&interleave' habits there.
> And got gently scolded for seeming to hide things!!

Corporate email users are generally incompetent at email no matter what 
email conventions you use. I cannot tell you the number of times I have 
emailed somebody, top-posted, explicitly said "We have three questions 
blocking progress, please answer all three", asked the three questions in 
clearly numbered bullet points... and got an answer back to the first and 
not even an acknowledgement of the other two.

Nevertheless, I've taken up writing at the top of emails

"My replies are interleaved with your questions which are shown starting 
with > symbols."

to make it obvious that they should keep reading.

It *is* possible to top-post and communicate effectively, it just takes a 
LOT more work, and the sorts of people who prefer top posting simply 
don't do it. Top-posting only works for shallow communication: simple 
questions, simple replies, and shallow threads, two or three replies at 
most. It's good for emails like:

Subject: Meet you at the pub on Friday afternoon?

See u there!!!

--- Original Message ---

Hey bro, want to catch up for drinks at the pub on Friday? 


but lousy for long *discussion* threads where people are replying to 
potentially dozens of separate issues within a single email.

To communicate effectively in email, you need to assume that your reader 
has forgotten the context of your reply, since they may have. They are 
probably dealing with dozens of other similar emails. A thread may go on 
for a week, or the question may have been asked a month ago and the reply 
only sent now. In long discussions, subjects may drift so that the 
subject line is no longer appropriate, or it may be a generic subject 
line.

In interleaved email, the quoted text acts as a refresher of previous 
content. If you don't interleave, you are responsible for adding context. 
Rather than:

"Sort the list first."

write something like:

"Your binary search is failing because the list is unsorted. Sort the 
list first."

That's a trivial example. In practice this becomes a PITA real fast, 
which is why top-posting discourages discussion in depth and encourages 
short, shallow, context-free replies.


> Just mentioning that there are cultures other than this one.

There are cultures that marry five year old girls to sixty year old men, 
cultures that treat throwing acid in the faces of women as acceptable 
behaviour, cultures that allow war heroes to die of hunger and cold 
homeless in the street, and cultures that top-post. What's your point?


> Of course, "Do in Rome as romans do" is universally sound advice, (with
> Rome suitably parameterized), so its best to follow the netiquette of
> the forum you are using.

Unless you think you can change the culture of Rome by example.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread rusi 
On Aug 17, 10:19 am, Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:42:54 -0700 (PDT), Madison May
>  declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>
>
> > As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.
>
>         I've been holding back on quoting the "netiquette RFC"... I also
> tend to blame M$ (Outlook and variants) for this tendency to quote
> everything and top-post -- Outlook makes it almost impossible to do a
> trim&interleave response style.
>
>         Including everything as a trailing quote may be okay in an office
> environment, where it serves more as a photocopy included with an paper
> mail response.

I was in a corporate environment for a while.  And carried my
'trim&interleave' habits there.
And got gently scolded for seeming to hide things!!

Just mentioning that there are cultures other than this one.

Of course, "Do in Rome as romans do" is universally sound advice,
(with Rome suitably parameterized), so its best to follow the
netiquette of the forum you are using.
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread Grant Edwards 
On 2012-08-16, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte  
> wrote:
>> On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>>
>>> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
>>
>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.

That may have been true -- in this thread -- so far.

>> GMail uses top-posting by default. I can't help it if you feel
>> irritated by it.

If you don't care whether or not people read your posts, go ahead and
top-post.  FWIW, you can make up your own private character encoding
and language and post in that if you want.  But, if your goal is to
communicate effectively with others, then proper formatting and
editing is A Good Thing(TM).

> I post using gmail, and I just delete two blank lines at the top and
> go down the bottom to type.
[...]
> And FWIW, I add my voice to those who prefer to read replies
> underneath the original text.

Same here.  I often skip reading top-posted articles entirely, since I
don't really care to take the time to start reading at the bottom,
working my up, trying to figure out exactly what the poster is
replying or referring to in the blob of context-free text at the top.

-- 
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  at   BIG MUSCLES from doing too
  gmail.commuch STUDYING!
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-17 Thread Hans Mulder 
On 16/08/12 23:34:25, Walter Hurry wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:20:29 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
>> On 8/16/2012 11:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
>>
>>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
>>
>> No he is not. Recheck all the the responses.
>>
>>> GMail uses top-posting by default.
>>
>> It only works if everyone does it.
>>
>>> I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
>>
>> Your out-of-context comments are harder to understand. I mostly do not
>> read them.
> 
> It's strange, but I don't even *see* his contributions (I am using a 
> regular newsreader - on comp.lang.python - and I don't have him in the 
> bozo bin). It doesn't sound as though I'm missing much.

I don't see him either.  That is to say: my ISP doesn't have his
posts in comp.lang.python,  The group gmane.comp.python.general
on Gname has them. so if you're really curious, you can point
your NNTP client at news.gmane.org.

> But I'm just curious. Any idea why that would be the case?

Maybe there's some kind of filer in the mail->usenet gateway?

HTH,

-- HansM



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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread Jurko Gospodnetić 

  Hi.


As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.


  +1

  Best regards,
Jurko Gospodnetić


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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-17 Thread rusi 
On Aug 17, 3:36 am, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte  
> wrote:
> > On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> >> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
>
> > Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> > GMail uses top-posting by default.
> > I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
>
> I post using gmail,

If you register on the mailing list as well as google groups, you can
then use googlegroups.
Thereafter appropriately cutting out the unnecessary stuff is easy
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Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-16 Thread Madison May 

> And FWIW, I add my voice to those who prefer to read replies
> 
> underneath the original text. Even if Mark were the only person vocal
> 
> enough to complain, you can still rest assured that there are many
> 
> more who agree. You've now heard from quite a few regular posters;
> 
> there are probably several *hundred* lurkers who feel the same way,
> 
> but do not post (possibly because they cannot). Also, these mails get
> 
> archived all over the internet, so a generation not yet born can read
> 
> and be either enlightened or irritated, as the case may be.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA


As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments. 
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

2012-08-16 Thread Chris Angelico 
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte  wrote:
> On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
>>
> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> GMail uses top-posting by default.
> I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.

I post using gmail, and I just delete two blank lines at the top and
go down the bottom to type. But on the way down, I also trim quoted
text, so people don't have to download and read the entire thread for
every new post. It's not difficult, you should give it a try some
time!

And FWIW, I add my voice to those who prefer to read replies
underneath the original text. Even if Mark were the only person vocal
enough to complain, you can still rest assured that there are many
more who agree. You've now heard from quite a few regular posters;
there are probably several *hundred* lurkers who feel the same way,
but do not post (possibly because they cannot). Also, these mails get
archived all over the internet, so a generation not yet born can read
and be either enlightened or irritated, as the case may be.

ChrisA
-- 
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Walter Hurry 
On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:20:29 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 8/16/2012 11:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
> 
>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> 
> No he is not. Recheck all the the responses.
> 
>> GMail uses top-posting by default.
> 
> It only works if everyone does it.
> 
>> I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
> 
> Your out-of-context comments are harder to understand. I mostly do not
> read them.

It's strange, but I don't even *see* his contributions (I am using a 
regular newsreader - on comp.lang.python - and I don't have him in the 
bozo bin). It doesn't sound as though I'm missing much.

But I'm just curious. Any idea why that would be the case?

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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 8/16/2012 11:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte wrote:


Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.


No he is not. Recheck all the the responses.


GMail uses top-posting by default.


It only works if everyone does it.


I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.


Your out-of-context comments are harder to understand. I mostly do not 
read them.



--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Dave Angel 
On 08/16/2012 10:37 AM, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
> nah.. "war" sounds better than "contest"
Top-posting yet again?



-- 

DaveA

-- 
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Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread William R. Wing (Bill Wing) 
On Aug 16, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Ramchandra Apte  wrote:

> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> GMail uses top-posting by default.
> 

MANY of us find it irritating...

and it only takes a second to move your cursor down and play nice.

-Bill
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Ethan Furman 

MRAB wrote:

On 16/08/2012 16:40, Ramchandra Apte wrote:

On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence wrote:


and "bottom" reads better than "top"



[snip]


Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
GMail uses top-posting by default.
I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.


I would've complained too if I was going to post a reply to this thread.


Rest assured that in this (bottom-posting vs top-posting) Mark Lawrence 
speaks for many of us.


~Ethan~
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread MRAB 

On 16/08/2012 16:40, Ramchandra Apte wrote:


On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence mailto:breamore...@yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:

and "bottom" reads better than "top"


[snip]


Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
GMail uses top-posting by default.
I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.


I would've complained too if I was going to post a reply to this thread.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
I think I'll use Google Groups now.

On 16 August 2012 21:10, Ramchandra Apte  wrote:

>
>
> On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>
>> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
>>
>>
>> On 16/08/2012 15:37, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
>>
>>> nah.. "war" sounds better than "contest"
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2012 14:59, Jean-Michel Pichavant >> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  Lee Harr wrote:

  pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
> write computer programs to control simulated robots.
>
> http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/ 
> 
> >
>
>
>
> The focus of this release is making all functionality
> available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
> the default interface.
>
> pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
> It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
> tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
> interface and visualization of the action.
>
> pybotwar is released under GPLv3.
>
>
> Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
>  - pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version
>
>  API
>  - Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
>  - PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
>  - PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
>  - made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with
> user code
>
>  Settings
>  - added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
>  from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
>  - logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
>  - robot modules are now loaded by full path
>  - If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots
>
>  PyQt4 Interface
>  - PyQt4 view mode is now the default
>  - (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
>  - all settings are available from PyQt interface
>  - remembers most recently used set of robots
>  - added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
>  - can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
>  - can also start tournaments to run in background
>  - editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed
>
>  Other changes
>  - made template.py a valid robot program
>  - single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
>  - renamed kill stat to outlasted
>  - started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
>  - commandline can now take a list of robots to load
>  - added "Super Tournaments"
>  - runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots
>
>  Fixes:
>  - made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
>  - fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
>  - fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
>  - fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
>  - limited motor speed on turret
>  - log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
>  - fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file
>
>
>
>  I have some suggestions:

 - rename pybotwar into pybotcontest
 - replace "bullet" by "missile of passion"
 - replace "dead" by "overflood with love"
 - "PING sensor" into "pheromone sensor"
 ... and so on :p

 JM

 --
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>
 >


>>>
>>>
>>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
> GMail uses top-posting by default.
> I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.
>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Mark Lawrence.
>>
>> --
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>
>
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
On 16 August 2012 21:00, Mark Lawrence  wrote:

> and "bottom" reads better than "top"
>
>
> On 16/08/2012 15:37, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
>
>> nah.. "war" sounds better than "contest"
>>
>> On 16 August 2012 14:59, Jean-Michel Pichavant > >wrote:
>>
>>  Lee Harr wrote:
>>>
>>>  pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
 write computer programs to control simulated robots.

 http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/ 
 
 >



 The focus of this release is making all functionality
 available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
 the default interface.

 pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
 It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
 tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
 interface and visualization of the action.

 pybotwar is released under GPLv3.


 Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
  - pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version

  API
  - Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
  - PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
  - PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
  - made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with
 user code

  Settings
  - added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
  from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
  - logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
  - robot modules are now loaded by full path
  - If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots

  PyQt4 Interface
  - PyQt4 view mode is now the default
  - (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
  - all settings are available from PyQt interface
  - remembers most recently used set of robots
  - added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
  - can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
  - can also start tournaments to run in background
  - editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed

  Other changes
  - made template.py a valid robot program
  - single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
  - renamed kill stat to outlasted
  - started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
  - commandline can now take a list of robots to load
  - added "Super Tournaments"
  - runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots

  Fixes:
  - made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
  - fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
  - fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
  - fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
  - limited motor speed on turret
  - log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
  - fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file



  I have some suggestions:
>>>
>>> - rename pybotwar into pybotcontest
>>> - replace "bullet" by "missile of passion"
>>> - replace "dead" by "overflood with love"
>>> - "PING sensor" into "pheromone sensor"
>>> ... and so on :p
>>>
>>> JM
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Look you are the only person complaining about top-posting.
GMail uses top-posting by default.
I can't help it if you feel irritated by it.

>
> --
> Cheers.
>
> Mark Lawrence.
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Mark Lawrence 

and "bottom" reads better than "top"

On 16/08/2012 15:37, Ramchandra Apte wrote:

nah.. "war" sounds better than "contest"

On 16 August 2012 14:59, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:


Lee Harr wrote:


pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
write computer programs to control simulated robots.

http://pybotwar.googlecode.**com/ 


The focus of this release is making all functionality
available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
the default interface.

pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
interface and visualization of the action.

pybotwar is released under GPLv3.


Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
 - pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version

 API
 - Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
 - PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
 - PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
 - made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with
user code

 Settings
 - added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
 from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
 - logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
 - robot modules are now loaded by full path
 - If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots

 PyQt4 Interface
 - PyQt4 view mode is now the default
 - (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
 - all settings are available from PyQt interface
 - remembers most recently used set of robots
 - added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
 - can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
 - can also start tournaments to run in background
 - editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed

 Other changes
 - made template.py a valid robot program
 - single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
 - renamed kill stat to outlasted
 - started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
 - commandline can now take a list of robots to load
 - added "Super Tournaments"
 - runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots

 Fixes:
 - made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
 - fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
 - fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
 - fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
 - limited motor speed on turret
 - log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
 - fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file




I have some suggestions:

- rename pybotwar into pybotcontest
- replace "bullet" by "missile of passion"
- replace "dead" by "overflood with love"
- "PING sensor" into "pheromone sensor"
... and so on :p

JM

--
http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list








--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Ramchandra Apte 
nah.. "war" sounds better than "contest"

On 16 August 2012 14:59, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:

> Lee Harr wrote:
>
>> pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
>> write computer programs to control simulated robots.
>>
>> http://pybotwar.googlecode.**com/ 
>>
>>
>> The focus of this release is making all functionality
>> available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
>> the default interface.
>>
>> pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
>> It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
>> tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
>> interface and visualization of the action.
>>
>> pybotwar is released under GPLv3.
>>
>>
>> Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
>> - pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version
>>
>> API
>> - Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
>> - PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
>> - PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
>> - made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with
>> user code
>>
>> Settings
>> - added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
>> from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
>> - logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
>> - robot modules are now loaded by full path
>> - If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots
>>
>> PyQt4 Interface
>> - PyQt4 view mode is now the default
>> - (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
>> - all settings are available from PyQt interface
>> - remembers most recently used set of robots
>> - added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
>> - can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
>> - can also start tournaments to run in background
>> - editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed
>>
>> Other changes
>> - made template.py a valid robot program
>> - single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
>> - renamed kill stat to outlasted
>> - started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
>> - commandline can now take a list of robots to load
>> - added "Super Tournaments"
>> - runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots
>>
>> Fixes:
>> - made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
>> - fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
>> - fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
>> - fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
>> - limited motor speed on turret
>> - log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
>> - fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file
>>
>>
>>
> I have some suggestions:
>
> - rename pybotwar into pybotcontest
> - replace "bullet" by "missile of passion"
> - replace "dead" by "overflood with love"
> - "PING sensor" into "pheromone sensor"
> ... and so on :p
>
> JM
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-16 Thread Jean-Michel Pichavant 

Lee Harr wrote:

pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
write computer programs to control simulated robots.

http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/


The focus of this release is making all functionality
available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
the default interface.

pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
interface and visualization of the action.

pybotwar is released under GPLv3.


Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
- pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version

API
- Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
- PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
- PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
- made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with user code

Settings
- added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
- logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
- robot modules are now loaded by full path
- If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots

PyQt4 Interface
- PyQt4 view mode is now the default
- (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
- all settings are available from PyQt interface
- remembers most recently used set of robots
- added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
- can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
- can also start tournaments to run in background
- editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed

Other changes
- made template.py a valid robot program
- single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
- renamed kill stat to outlasted
- started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
- commandline can now take a list of robots to load
- added "Super Tournaments"
- runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots

Fixes:
- made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
- fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
- fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
- fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
- limited motor speed on turret
- log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
- fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file

 		 	   		  
  

I have some suggestions:

- rename pybotwar into pybotcontest
- replace "bullet" by "missile of passion"
- replace "dead" by "overflood with love"
- "PING sensor" into "pheromone sensor"
... and so on :p

JM

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[ANNC] pybotwar-0.8

2012-08-15 Thread Lee Harr 

pybotwar is a fun and educational game where players
write computer programs to control simulated robots.

http://pybotwar.googlecode.com/


The focus of this release is making all functionality
available from the PyQt interface and making PyQt
the default interface.

pybotwar uses pybox2d for the physical simulation.
It can be run in text-only mode -- useful for longer
tournaments -- or use pyqt or pygame for a graphical
interface and visualization of the action.

pybotwar is released under GPLv3.


Changes in pybotwar-0.8:
    - pybox2d-2.0.2b2 is now the required version

    API
    - Robot.turret() now takes turret speed instead of angle
    - PING sensor now differentiates own bullets from enemy bullets
    - PING differentiates dead robots when remove_dead_robots=False
    - made internal Robot state variables less likely to conflict with user code

    Settings
    - added "robots dir" setting to make it easier to run pybotwar
    from an installed copy, rather than from the unpacked folder
    - logs, lineups, and db all go in robots dir
    - robot modules are now loaded by full path
    - If using Qt settings, remembers most recently used set of robots

    PyQt4 Interface
    - PyQt4 view mode is now the default
    - (text mode and pygame/pygsear still available)
    - all settings are available from PyQt interface
    - remembers most recently used set of robots
    - added debug window showing sensor values, commands, and logs
    - can now start tournaments (and multiple battles) from pyqt
    - can also start tournaments to run in background
    - editor automatically adds .py to robot filename if needed

    Other changes
    - made template.py a valid robot program
    - single battles are now run as 1-battle tournaments
    - renamed kill stat to outlasted
    - started tracking kills as dealing final damage to other robot
    - commandline can now take a list of robots to load
    - added "Super Tournaments"
    - runs tournaments with all possible combinations of robots

    Fixes:
    - made POSition sensor scale same as PING sensor
    - fixed editor backspace between left edge and start of text
    - fixed inability to re-open file once its window was closed
    - fixed crash when cancelling file-open dialog
    - limited motor speed on turret
    - log messages in testmode when using qt4 view
    - fall back to :memory: database if unable to open db file

  
-- 
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