Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Gregory Ewing
 wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
>>
>> But I learned a lot about hot ($2400F) iron too.
>
>
> 2400 dollars farenheit? That's an intriguing unit...
>
> Or is it meant to be the temperature in hex?

Hex, obviously. Which is something like five thousand Kelvin, in decimal.

Yeah that's hot.

ChrisA
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Gregory Ewing]

Gene Heskett wrote:

But I learned a lot about hot ($2400F) iron too.


2400 dollars farenheit? That's an intriguing unit...

Or is it meant to be the temperature in hex?

--
Greg
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Cameron Simpson]

On 26Mar2016 02:36, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn  wrote:

Ned Batchelder wrote:

Chris, I apologize for Thomas.


How dare you to speak for me,


Because it is something you never say: sorry for my rudeness.


and *again* the rest of the subscribers?


He speaks for me at least, on this topic. I was tempted to say this yesterday 
after Ned, but didn't because his words were well chosen. But now:


Chris, I too apologise for Thomas' tone. With one or two exceptions, I have 
found this to be one of the most civil and welcoming fora on the net and hope 
you get good help and discussion here.



There is nothing to apologize for when I am *helping* someone by giving them
useful information.


Items of useful information shielded behind concealing walls of apparent anger 
and contempt. That is not a helpful delivery style, and it actively drives away 
new people.


May I recommend the film "Harvey"? As the lead character says at one point: "I 
used to be smart. I recommend nice." I used to be something of a hothead 
myself; I hope that I have matured.


[...]

Politeness is another thing you should try sometime, as I see that, your
having no valid argument at all, you like to throw dirt instead.

[...]

Your previous tone makes this admonition ineffective. Based on my samples, Ned 
is far beyond you in politeness.


My personal practice is usually to leave post that offend or disparage or 
otherwise have an agressive tone alone, or to snip the rant-like sections and 
address _only_ the technical content to try to keep the discussion on topic and 
civil. But not always, as evidenced here.


Thomas: your tone and delivery _is_ unhelpful to others, and comes across as 
hostile, at least to my eyes and evidently to others.


Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Michael Torrie]

On 03/26/2016 11:49 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Well said, Ned, and a good reminder for me, and I suspect all of us, to
> considering how we communicate.  It's our nature to think problems lie
^^
Sigh.  Consider.  And proof read.

> with everyone else but us (as witnessed by recent posts from another
> list member in this own thread), and it's good to be reminded to look
> inward as well.


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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 24/03/2016 20:53, c...@isbd.net wrote:
>> I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group via
>> gmane) an invaluable help at times.
>>
>> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
>> recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
>> be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
>> lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> 
> Perhaps this http://transcrypt.org/ is the way to go? :)

Unfortunately, no.  It needs attention from an expert in the targeted field.

To begin with, the “JavaScript” version (actually, only an ECMAScript 
*2015*-compliant version) of the original Python code considers a "class" as 
sealed (properties being only accessor properties with a getter), when in 
Python that is not the case:

class C:
def foo (self):
pass

o = C()
C.foo = lambda self, bar: print(bar)

# prints "baz"
o.foo("baz")

Further, to set up multiple inheritance in a conforming implementation of 
ECMAScript, one must not only set up the instance properties as by the 
constructor of a type, but also the *prototype* chain.  In fact, a Proxy 
instance would be required to really set up the *emulation* of such a 
branching prototype chain for any ECMAScript object.

This list of implementation mistakes is not exhaustive, but ECMAScript 
implementations are beyond the scope of this newsgroup/mailing list.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Michael Torrie]

On 03/26/2016 05:37 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> [...]

> Has anyone ever said to you, "Thanks, Thomas! Lots of people were giving
> me answers, but they were all so kind and polite about it, I couldn't
> see what they were saying.  Finally, your blunt direct manner got
> through to me, so now I understand."  Of course not. It's absurd.
> Bluntness doesn't help learning.  It just makes *you* feel good.  
> 
> Points of correctness are useless without points of connection.  You
> have to talk to people in a way that they will hear.  If you can't be
> bothered, then you are just wasting your time, and earning a negative
> reputation for yourself.
> [...]

Well said, Ned, and a good reminder for me, and I suspect all of us, to
considering how we communicate.  It's our nature to think problems lie
with everyone else but us (as witnessed by recent posts from another
list member in this own thread), and it's good to be reminded to look
inward as well.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 26 March 2016 11:35:52 Larry Martell wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Saturday 26 March 2016 07:52:05 Larry Martell wrote:
> >> As my wife once said, "If you start with 'Listen, asshole, ...'
> >> they probably won't hear what you have to say after that.
> >
> > She is 100% correct, but try as I might, I can't quite believe that
> > your missus would ever use that plain a language.  She is too good
> > at dressing it up.  She reminds me of our now passed Senator Bobbie
> > Byrd, who could tell somebody to go to hell in such flowery language
> > that they looked forward to the trip.
>
> Gene, she can curse like a sailor when needed.

The key is "when needed".  Been known to do that myself. I did, 60 years 
ago have a 10 minute monologue of swearing practiced up, no 4 letter 
word used twice. But common sense has prevailed and I've forgotten 9 
minutes of it by now. No longer 10' tall & bulletproof I guess. :)

The years do that to a body, so now my std excuse is that if I had of 
known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of 
myself.  But I would have had to start practicing that the summer of 
1960 when, for lack of a better job, I spent several months in an iron 
foundry. Woman and at that point, 2 kids to feed. But I learned a lot 
about hot ($2400F) iron too.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Larry Martell]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Saturday 26 March 2016 07:52:05 Larry Martell wrote:
>> As my wife once said, "If you start with 'Listen, asshole, ...' they
>> probably won't hear what you have to say after that.
>
> She is 100% correct, but try as I might, I can't quite believe that your
> missus would ever use that plain a language.  She is too good at
> dressing it up.  She reminds me of our now passed Senator Bobbie Byrd,
> who could tell somebody to go to hell in such flowery language that they
> looked forward to the trip.

Gene, she can curse like a sailor when needed.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 26 March 2016 07:52:05 Larry Martell wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Ned Batchelder  
wrote:
> > Thomas, you don't have to choose between correct and nice.  It's
> > possible to be both.
>
> "I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right."
>
> That was written by Stephen Sondheim and it's from his musical Into
> The Woods. It's said by the witch. That used to be my sig back in
> usenet days, and more then one person said "Who said that? Rush
> Limbaugh?"
>
> > I can see that you are knowledgeable, and I really appreciate the
> > energy you put into answering questions.  You are very generous with
> > your time. But when you bark correct things at people, they don't
> > hear you.  Your helpful energy is being overshadowed by your blunt
> > rude manner.
>
> As my wife once said, "If you start with 'Listen, asshole, ...' they
> probably won't hear what you have to say after that.

She is 100% correct, but try as I might, I can't quite believe that your 
missus would ever use that plain a language.  She is too good at 
dressing it up.  She reminds me of our now passed Senator Bobbie Byrd, 
who could tell somebody to go to hell in such flowery language that they 
looked forward to the trip.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Mark Lawrence]

On 24/03/2016 20:53, c...@isbd.net wrote:

I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group via
gmane) an invaluable help at times.

Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.



Perhaps this http://transcrypt.org/ is the way to go? :)

--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn  wrote:
> c...@isbd.net wrote:
> 
> > Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> > recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> > be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> > lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> 
> There is no Javascript. 
> 
> There are no Usenet lists.
> 
> This is not only a Python *mailing* list, it is also mirrored as an 
> international Usenet _newsgroup_,  (which I am 
> reading).
> 
Which is what (OP) do too.  Life's too short to go into detail about
how one is accessing a group/list in the context of a question like my
original question.

It's quite fun following all the resulting flak though!  :-)

> If you can accept all of that, then the international Usenet _newsgroup_ 
>  (where I am posting primarily) is for you.
> So are other national/language-specific newsgroups on the JavaScripts and 
> other ECMAScript implementations.  In your newsreader, search for newsgroups 
> whose name contains “javascript”.
> 
> Next time, read  and STFW first, and get a real name.
> 
Ay?  

Thanks anyway, comp.lang.javascript it is, or I'll try it anyway.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

Ned Batchelder  wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 5:17:21 PM UTC-4, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn 
> wrote:
> > c...@isbd.net wrote:
> > 
> > > Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> > > recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> > > be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> > > lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> > 
> > There is no Javascript. 
> > 
> > There are no Usenet lists.
> > 
> > This is not only a Python *mailing* list, it is also mirrored as an 
> > international Usenet _newsgroup_,  (which I am 
> > reading).
> > 
> > If you can accept all of that, then the international Usenet _newsgroup_ 
> >  (where I am posting primarily) is for you.
> > So are other national/language-specific newsgroups on the JavaScripts and 
> > other ECMAScript implementations.  In your newsreader, search for 
> > newsgroups 
> > whose name contains "javascript".
> > 
> > Next time, read  and STFW first, and get a real name.
> 
> Chris, I apologize for Thomas.  His main goal on this list seems to be
> pointing out when people are wrong, over the smallest details.  His
> secondary goal is enforcing some imaginary rule about real names, though
> he couldn't be bothered to read your post thoroughly enough to discover yours.
> 
> Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice people. :)
> 
Yes, I know, this is one of my favourite groups/lists.  Just about
every question I have ever asked here has received really helpful
replies.  Even this one has, though it does seem to have stirred a bit
of a hornet's nest at the same time.  :-)

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Larry Martell]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Ned Batchelder  wrote:
> Thomas, you don't have to choose between correct and nice.  It's
> possible to be both.

"I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right."

That was written by Stephen Sondheim and it's from his musical Into
The Woods. It's said by the witch. That used to be my sig back in
usenet days, and more then one person said "Who said that? Rush
Limbaugh?"

> I can see that you are knowledgeable, and I really appreciate the energy
> you put into answering questions.  You are very generous with your time.
> But when you bark correct things at people, they don't hear you.  Your
> helpful energy is being overshadowed by your blunt rude manner.

As my wife once said, "If you start with 'Listen, asshole, ...' they
probably won't hear what you have to say after that.
-- 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ned Batchelder]

On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 11:37:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> >  wrote:
> >>> Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice
> >>> people.
> >>> :)
> >>
> >> You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that
> >> I do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them
> >> to educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people
> >> like you who tell them what they should think.
> >>
> >> So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own
> >> "logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.
> > 
> > King Gama is a nicer person than you are, and in very similar ways.
> 
> I do not know a person called "King Gama", I do not think I need to know 
> them, I do not think that he is on-topic here either, and I think that you 
> should keep in mind that this is not a niceness contest, but a technical 
> newsgroup/mailing list.  I for one prefer a direct, if blunt, correct answer 
> over a nice, evading or incorrect one any time.

Thomas, you don't have to choose between correct and nice.  It's
possible to be both.

Even more important than being nice is being effective.  Do you think
your answers are achieving your goal?  Are people learning from you? Are
there ways more people could?

I can see that you are knowledgeable, and I really appreciate the energy
you put into answering questions.  You are very generous with your time.
But when you bark correct things at people, they don't hear you.  Your
helpful energy is being overshadowed by your blunt rude manner.

If your goal is to help people, you are missing the mark.  You say you
"encourage them to educate and enlighten themselves."  I haven't seen
encouragement. I've seen scolding and sneering and shaming. 

Has anyone ever thanked you for, "There is no Javascript"?  It's not
helpful, it's just pedantic.  Correct, yes; helpful? No.  Was "STFW
first" meant to be encouraging?  You have a different definition of that
word than I do.

I understand the desire to be right, and to point out incorrect things.
Heck, in writing this post I'm partly motivated by that desire.  But how
you say things has a huge effect on whether they are heard.

If you don't care if you are heard or not, then why say anything?  And
if you *do* care if you are heard or not, then you have to take into
account how people perceive you and your message.

Has anyone ever said to you, "Thanks, Thomas! Lots of people were giving
me answers, but they were all so kind and polite about it, I couldn't
see what they were saying.  Finally, your blunt direct manner got
through to me, so now I understand."  Of course not. It's absurd.
Bluntness doesn't help learning.  It just makes *you* feel good.  

Points of correctness are useless without points of connection.  You
have to talk to people in a way that they will hear.  If you can't be
bothered, then you are just wasting your time, and earning a negative
reputation for yourself.

But worse, you are tainting the reputation of this community.  Someone
comes here looking for an answer, or perhaps just comraderie, and they
get greeted by a rude condescending technocrat.  They don't just think,
"Thomas is a jerk," they think, "Python people are jerks."  That matters
a lot to me.


> See also: 

An excellent link! Have you read it? It applies to this very case. You
screwed up on this community forum.  I am telling you how you screwed
up. And what you just did is "whine about the experience, claim to have
been verbally assaulted, demand apologies, scream, ..."

ESR's post exactly describes this situation, except you don't understand
how we map onto the roles he describes.

Perhaps you (and ESR) think that because this is a technical forum, all
that matters is technical correctness.  That's wrong.  This is a place
that people communicate, and how they communicate matters.  In fact, if
they can't communicate well, then none of the technical content matters
at all.

I'm sure you've heard this criticism before.  You seem to have made up
your mind that your way is right and that all of us criticizing you are
wrong.  I hope you'll take some of these points to heart anyway.  We can
use all the helpful knowledgable people we can get.

I know I can't change you.  But I can help set the tone in this forum.
Mostly by modeling good behavior, but occasionally by directly
addressing bad behavior.

--Ned.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Rustom Mody]

On Saturday, March 26, 2016 at 9:55:15 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> > Chris Angelico wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>  Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice
>  people.
>  :)
> >>>
> >>> You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that
> >>> I do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them
> >>> to educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people
> >>> like you who tell them what they should think.
> >>>
> >>> So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own
> >>> "logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.
> >>
> >> King Gama is a nicer person than you are, and in very similar ways.
> >
> > I do not know a person called "King Gama", I do not think I need to know
> > them, I do not think that he is on-topic here either, and I think that you
> > should keep in mind that this is not a niceness contest, but a technical
> > newsgroup/mailing list.  I for one prefer a direct, if blunt, correct answer
> > over a nice, evading or incorrect one any time.
> >
> > See also: 
> >
> >
> > F'up2 poster
> 
> Fine. You want a blunt answer?
> 
> You, Thomas, are not a nice person. You think you are, but you are
> not. Be nicer or go away. Please.

"You think??"
I think you just failed the Turing test Chris 
Do admit it though...

Thomas 'juvenile' Lahn does a better job than Dihedral
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
 wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
>>  wrote:
 Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice
 people.
 :)
>>>
>>> You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that
>>> I do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them
>>> to educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people
>>> like you who tell them what they should think.
>>>
>>> So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own
>>> "logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.
>>
>> King Gama is a nicer person than you are, and in very similar ways.
>
> I do not know a person called “King Gama”, I do not think I need to know
> them, I do not think that he is on-topic here either, and I think that you
> should keep in mind that this is not a niceness contest, but a technical
> newsgroup/mailing list.  I for one prefer a direct, if blunt, correct answer
> over a nice, evading or incorrect one any time.
>
> See also: 
>
>
> F'up2 poster

Fine. You want a blunt answer?

You, Thomas, are not a nice person. You think you are, but you are
not. Be nicer or go away. Please.

Also, go look up King Gama, as he's from a source that the Pythons follow.

ChrisA
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
>  wrote:
>>> Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice
>>> people.
>>> :)
>>
>> You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that
>> I do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them
>> to educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people
>> like you who tell them what they should think.
>>
>> So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own
>> "logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.
> 
> King Gama is a nicer person than you are, and in very similar ways.

I do not know a person called “King Gama”, I do not think I need to know 
them, I do not think that he is on-topic here either, and I think that you 
should keep in mind that this is not a niceness contest, but a technical 
newsgroup/mailing list.  I for one prefer a direct, if blunt, correct answer 
over a nice, evading or incorrect one any time.

See also: 


F'up2 poster

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
 wrote:
>> Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice people.
>> :)
>
> You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that I
> do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them to
> educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people like
> you who tell them what they should think.
>
> So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own
> "logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.

King Gama is a nicer person than you are, and in very similar ways.

ChrisA
-- 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 08:17 am, PointedEars wrote:
..^^^

> get a real name.

You sign your posts "PointedEars". Do you not realise how hypocritical these
repeated carping complaints about "real names" are? 

Not to mention pointless. Aside from the fact that "real name" is
subjective, you have no idea what is someone's real name and what isn't.


Nobody appointed you as Real Name Sheriff. Just give it up.



-- 
Steven

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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Ned Batchelder wrote:

> Chris, I apologize for Thomas.

How dare you to speak for me, and *again* the rest of the subscribers?  
There is nothing to apologize for when I am *helping* someone by giving them 
useful information.  You can apologize for your own presumptous behavior 
instead.

> is main goal on this list seems to be pointing out when people are wrong, 
> over the smallest details.

Certainly I point out when people are wrong.   That is how we develop 
*knowledge*.  For that it does not matter of you in your blissful ignorance 
think that those are “smallest details”, which they are not.  The underlying 
process is called *learning*.  You should try it sometime.

> His secondary goal is enforcing some imaginary rule about real names,

It is not an imaginary rule, it is a social convention that follows from 
another social convention, simple politeness.  When you are seeking the help 
of people that you do not know, there is a principle of basic politeness 
saying that you should tell them who you are.  Especially if those people 
have already extended you the politeness to tell them who *they* are; like 
here, when you have read their names already.

Politeness is another thing you should try sometime, as I see that, your 
having no valid argument at all, you like to throw dirt instead.

> Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice people.
> :)

You do not even know me.  I *am* a nice person, if only for the fact that I 
do not let people suffer from their own ignorance, and I encourage them to 
educate and enlighten themselves in order not be dependent on people like 
you who tell them what they should think.

So *evidentially*, *you* are not a nice person.  According to your own 
"logic", *you* do not belong in the Python community.  Go away.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ned Batchelder]

On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 5:17:21 PM UTC-4, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> c...@isbd.net wrote:
> 
> > Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> > recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> > be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> > lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> 
> There is no Javascript. 
> 
> There are no Usenet lists.
> 
> This is not only a Python *mailing* list, it is also mirrored as an 
> international Usenet _newsgroup_,  (which I am 
> reading).
> 
> If you can accept all of that, then the international Usenet _newsgroup_ 
>  (where I am posting primarily) is for you.
> So are other national/language-specific newsgroups on the JavaScripts and 
> other ECMAScript implementations.  In your newsreader, search for newsgroups 
> whose name contains "javascript".
> 
> Next time, read  and STFW first, and get a real name.

Chris, I apologize for Thomas.  His main goal on this list seems to be
pointing out when people are wrong, over the smallest details.  His
secondary goal is enforcing some imaginary rule about real names, though
he couldn't be bothered to read your post thoroughly enough to discover yours.

Thomas is not typical of the Python community. We are mostly nice people. :)

--Ned.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> […] It is so blatantly obvious that he knows precisely nothing about
> Python, but still the moderators on this list let him get away with it.

This is a mailing list?  It is moderated?  *Seriously*?

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

c...@isbd.net wrote:

> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.

There is no Javascript. 

There are no Usenet lists.

This is not only a Python *mailing* list, it is also mirrored as an 
international Usenet _newsgroup_,  (which I am 
reading).

If you can accept all of that, then the international Usenet _newsgroup_ 
 (where I am posting primarily) is for you.
So are other national/language-specific newsgroups on the JavaScripts and 
other ECMAScript implementations.  In your newsreader, search for newsgroups 
whose name contains “javascript”.

Next time, read  and STFW first, and get a real name.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ben Bacarisse]

Cousin Stanley  writes:

> 
>> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, 
>> can anyone recommend a place similar to this list 
>> where Javascript questions can be asked ?
> 
>
>   Several years back I found 
>   the newsgroup comp.lang.javascript
>   to be helpful 

Still going.  It can't hurt to try.

>   However, I haven't used that group
>   for some time now so don't know
>   the current nature of the group 

I suspect some people are put off answering because there's a poster
whose main pleasure seems to be to nit-pick other people's answers (and
the OP will be told there's no "Javascript" for starters!).  The usual
Usenet thick skin advised.

-- 
Ben.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Cousin Stanley]

> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, 
> can anyone recommend a place similar to this list 
> where Javascript questions can be asked ?


  Several years back I found 
  the newsgroup comp.lang.javascript
  to be helpful 

  However, I haven't used that group
  for some time now so don't know
  the current nature of the group 


-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[alister]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 23:46:14 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 24/03/2016 23:33, Ian Kelly wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Mark Lawrence
>>  wrote:
>>> No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say
>>> what I like.
>>
>> Good to know. I've been on the fence about this for a long time, but
>> lately the frequency of your outbursts seems to have increased, and
>> you're being more of a nuisance to this list than the people whom
>> you're complaining about.
>>
>> *plonk*
>>
>>
> I just love it.  A complete moron like BartC insults the Python
> community day in, day out, yet I'm the problem?   When he can actually
> write a decent line of Python code and avoid discussing speed I'll think
> about him as a professional programmer.  I cannot see this happening
> when all he talks about is byte code.  He's clearly never read anything
> like Steve Maguire's "Writing Solid Code".

I am afraid I have to disagree with you
Responding in BartC's threads is one thing but you are now deliberately 
trolling him in others, this is a bad as a poster (who shall remain 
namless) continually telling people the cause of there issues is due to 
pythons Unicode handling. it does nothing for the OP of this thread & 
quickly renders it useless.



-- 
I'm into SOFTWARE!
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

Larry Martell  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:53 PM,   wrote:
> > I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group via
> > gmane) an invaluable help at times.
> >
> > Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> > recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> > be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> > lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> 
> I don't know of any JS specific mailing lists. When I have a JS
> question I usually use stackoverflow. But there is also the web design
> mailing list, which will accept JS questions. See
> http://www.webdesign-l.com/
> 
OK, thanks, I do know about both of those though I hadn't realised
there was a mailing list at Web Design.


> For jQuery questions I use the jquery forum - http://forum.jquery.com/

I find forums very difficult to use in general for a number of reasons:-

I have to visit them individually, it's not practical for the
number of subjects I'm interested in. I belong to 77 lists just
now, a similar number of forums would be totally unmanageable.

I can't use a decent editor (or my choice) to write and reply to
messages.

The threading is often rather poor (though some are better than
others).

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ben Finney]

Mark Lawrence  writes:

> No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say
> what I like.

That is the attitude of a petulant schoolyard bully. Stop, please. You
are to behave well in this community, and this is not conditional on the
behaviour of others.

You are better that that. Please continue to show it.

-- 
 \  “Some forms of reality are so horrible we refuse to face them, |
  `\ unless we are trapped into it by comedy. To label any subject |
_o__)unsuitable for comedy is to admit defeat.” —Peter Sellers |
Ben Finney

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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ned Batchelder]

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 7:47:34 PM UTC-4, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 24/03/2016 23:33, Ian Kelly wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Mark Lawrence  
> > wrote:
> >> No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say what I
> >> like.
> >
> > Good to know. I've been on the fence about this for a long time, but
> > lately the frequency of your outbursts seems to have increased, and
> > you're being more of a nuisance to this list than the people whom
> > you're complaining about.
> >
> > *plonk*
> >
> 
> I just love it.  A complete moron like BartC insults the Python 
> community day in, day out, yet I'm the problem?   When he can actually 
> write a decent line of Python code and avoid discussing speed I'll think 
> about him as a professional programmer.  I cannot see this happening 
> when all he talks about is byte code.  He's clearly never read anything 
> like Steve Maguire's "Writing Solid Code".

Yes Mark, you are a problem.  You insult people personally. There is no need
for that.  BartC is a challenge, I agree, but he has not said anything
personal against you or anyone else.

Stop making personal attacks.  Find another way to deal with your frustration.

The Python Code of Conduct says to treat people with respect.  You aren't
doing that.  I know you feel like Bart has been disrespectful by dragging out
threads and ignoring important parts of the Python language.  I agree, that
is frustrating, but it different than making personal insults.

Stop it.  You are hurting this list and you are hurting Python.

--Ned.
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Larry Martell]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:53 PM,   wrote:
> I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group via
> gmane) an invaluable help at times.
>
> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
> be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
> lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.

I don't know of any JS specific mailing lists. When I have a JS
question I usually use stackoverflow. But there is also the web design
mailing list, which will accept JS questions. See
http://www.webdesign-l.com/

For jQuery questions I use the jquery forum - http://forum.jquery.com/
-- 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Mark Lawrence]

On 24/03/2016 23:33, Ian Kelly wrote:

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:

No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say what I
like.


Good to know. I've been on the fence about this for a long time, but
lately the frequency of your outbursts seems to have increased, and
you're being more of a nuisance to this list than the people whom
you're complaining about.

*plonk*



I just love it.  A complete moron like BartC insults the Python 
community day in, day out, yet I'm the problem?   When he can actually 
write a decent line of Python code and avoid discussing speed I'll think 
about him as a professional programmer.  I cannot see this happening 
when all he talks about is byte code.  He's clearly never read anything 
like Steve Maguire's "Writing Solid Code".


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Ian Kelly]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say what I
> like.

Good to know. I've been on the fence about this for a long time, but
lately the frequency of your outbursts seems to have increased, and
you're being more of a nuisance to this list than the people whom
you're complaining about.

*plonk*
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Joel Goldstick]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Mark Lawrence 
wrote:

> On 24/03/2016 22:45, c...@isbd.net wrote:
>
>> Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:
>>>

 If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...
>
> OK!  :-)


>>> I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that
>>> you need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is
>>> how fast is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the
>>> source code that you write, all you have to bother about is the
>>> underlying byte code.
>>>
>>> Many a true word.
>>
>>
> I wasn't jesting.  BartC is a complete insult to the entire Python
> community, and I find it quite staggering that he has been allowed to spew
> his complete cobblers for so long and get away with it.  It is so blatantly
> obvious that he knows precisely nothing about Python, but still the
> moderators on this list let him get away with it.
>
>
> --
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
> what you can do for our language.
>
> Mark Lawrence
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


at least ferous cranis is gone!
-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com/ 
http://cc-baseballstats.info/
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Mark Lawrence]

On 24/03/2016 22:45, c...@isbd.net wrote:

Mark Lawrence  wrote:

On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:



If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...


OK!  :-)



I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that
you need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is
how fast is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the
source code that you write, all you have to bother about is the
underlying byte code.


Many a true word.



I wasn't jesting.  BartC is a complete insult to the entire Python 
community, and I find it quite staggering that he has been allowed to 
spew his complete cobblers for so long and get away with it.  It is so 
blatantly obvious that he knows precisely nothing about Python, but 
still the moderators on this list let him get away with it.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Mark Lawrence]

On 24/03/2016 22:49, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:

On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:




If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...


OK!  :-)



I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that you
need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is how fast
is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the source code
that you write, all you have to bother about is the underlying byte code.


Enough. You don't need to drag this into arbitrary threads.

ChrisA



No.  While this idiot, BartC, is let loose on this forum, I'll say what 
I like.  It is quite clear that he hasn't got the faintest idea, and the 
sooner he is kicked into touch, like the RUE, the better for the Python 
community.


"I'll just factor out the loop in this test".

Yeah, right.

--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:
> >
> >> If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...
> >>
> > OK!  :-)
> >
> 
> I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that 
> you need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is 
> how fast is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the 
> source code that you write, all you have to bother about is the 
> underlying byte code.
> 
Many a true word.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...
>>>
>> OK!  :-)
>>
>
> I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that you
> need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is how fast
> is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the source code
> that you write, all you have to bother about is the underlying byte code.

Enough. You don't need to drag this into arbitrary threads.

ChrisA
-- 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Mark Lawrence]

On 24/03/2016 22:08, c...@isbd.net wrote:



If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...


OK!  :-)



I'd try c.l.bartc as he is the world's leading expert on everything that 
you need to know about any language, whereby the only thing to know is 
how fast is it.  It's just fantastic, you don't have to bother about the 
source code that you write, all you have to bother about is the 
underlying byte code.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2016-03-24, c...@isbd.net  wrote:
> 
> > I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group
> > via gmane) an invaluable help at times.
> >
> > Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> > recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions
> > can be asked?
> 
> Are you asking about
> 
>  1) Javascript itself (the language)?
> 
Probably mostly this.

>  2) jQuery or some other client-side framework?
> 
A little of this, but not much.


>  3) The DOM model and API provided by various web browsers?
> 
Not this.


> In most forums 99% of the threads are about 2 and 3.
> 
> > The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript lists and
> > it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.
> 
> That's a tough one.  I dabble in Javascript in order to support the
> Web UI's on some of the embedded products I work on, and I've yet to
> find a high quality forum for Javascript questions.  Javascript
> programing seems to be dominated by cargo-cult programmers with little
> understanding of the language.  They just sort of cut-n-paste code
> snippets they find online and then hope.  It's not quite as bad as PHP
> in that regard, but that's not saying mutch.  [IMO, the design of the
> Javascript language itself is _far_ better than the "design" of the
> PHP language, and that the results of cargo-cult programming in
> Javascript usually turn out better than they do in PHP.]
> 
Yes, it seems that the 'right way' in Javascript is often almost the
opposite of the 'right way' in other langueages.  Optimise at the
expense of readability seems to be the main aim.


> If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...
> 
OK!  :-)

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
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Re: [OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-03-24, c...@isbd.net  wrote:

> I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group
> via gmane) an invaluable help at times.
>
> Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
> recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions
> can be asked?

Are you asking about

 1) Javascript itself (the language)?

 2) jQuery or some other client-side framework?

 3) The DOM model and API provided by various web browsers?

In most forums 99% of the threads are about 2 and 3.

> The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript lists and
> it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.

That's a tough one.  I dabble in Javascript in order to support the
Web UI's on some of the embedded products I work on, and I've yet to
find a high quality forum for Javascript questions.  Javascript
programing seems to be dominated by cargo-cult programmers with little
understanding of the language.  They just sort of cut-n-paste code
snippets they find online and then hope.  It's not quite as bad as PHP
in that regard, but that's not saying mutch.  [IMO, the design of the
Javascript language itself is _far_ better than the "design" of the
PHP language, and that the results of cargo-cult programming in
Javascript usually turn out better than they do in PHP.]

If you do find anything like c.l.p for Javascript, let us know...

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm sitting on my
  at   SPEED QUEEN ... To me,
  gmail.comit's ENJOYABLE ... I'm WARM
   ... I'm VIBRATORY ...
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[OT'ish] Is there a list as good as this for Javascript

[cl]

I use Python wherever I can and find this list (as a usenet group via
gmane) an invaluable help at times.

Occasionally I have to make forays into Javascript, can anyone
recommend a place similar to this list where Javascript questions can
be asked?  The trouble is that there are very many usenet Javascript
lists and it's difficult to guess which one[es] might be good.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
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