Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 08:19:05PM +0700, Lie Ryan wrote: > But until the dictionary is rewritten, it is incorrect usage. That's complete nonsense, much like the rest of your argument. People use words all the time that aren't even IN a dictionary. Their absence from any dictionary makes them no less capable of conveying meaning. The dictionary does not define language; humans do, through their every-day use of words. Dictionaries record how words are commonly used, and are written by stubborn, pedantic old men with nothing better to do than sit around their oak desks debating the meaning of words... meanwhile the rest of the just USE words to communicate our ideas. Dictionaries are like technical documentation: written with the best of intentions, and mostly accurate at the time of writing, but out of date by the time they are published. [No offense meant to dictionary writers... I mostly fit that description myself, excepting that I am not quite yet an "old" man.] > FOR DECADES, people used the term PC for all sorts of things, I never said they didn't. That also is completely irrelevant. It's still the case that "PC" is commonly (these days MOST commonly, by far, at least in the US where all this technology was invented and named) used to refer to Intel-compatible hardware running a Microsoft OS. That fact, by itself, justifies the use in this case and any other. This is the very nature of language. > Apple's personal computer is NOT a PC? Aren't you contradicting > yourself? No, of course I'm not. > Just like what Apple, you have just said: "I'm Apple, I'm a > personal computer, but I'm not a personal computer." Completely > nonsense. Yes, I agree: what you wrote is complete nonsense. Only that isn't what I said at all. I said Apple isn't a PC. The term "PC" and the term "personal computer" are separate and distinct. One has only 2 letters, the other has 16 letters in two words. The latter ONLY means a (non-specific) computer designed for personal use. The former can mean that, though that usage is far less common than the one I was using: an Intel compatible personal computer on which Microsoft operating systems run. The software industry has been marketing titles as "For PC" since the creation of the IBM PC, and did not stop doing so when other PC-compatibles arrived on the scene, nor even when IBM stopped making them. So what did they mean by "PC" after IBM stopped making them? They meant, very clearly, that their software was intended for Intel-compatible hardware running a Microsoft OS. Does that mean that PC hardware running Linux is not a PC? Of course not -- except when the term is used in a context where it does mean exactly that. ;-) > Last, probably my strongest argument: "If the folder has been called > WinBuild/WindowsBuild, there is no need for arguments. PC as Windows is > an arguable usage, Windows as Windows is not arguable." There is no need for arguments now! The only reason there are arguments now is because a few stubborn people irrationally refuse to accept the term "PC" as it is most commonly used in modern English, as has been the case for most of my lifetime. Finally, the person who named the build can call it whatever they want... that's one of the perks of creating something: you get to name it. They could have called it "VanillaIceCreamBuild" or "Vinny'sSkankyHoBuild" -- it's their choice what to call it. The name of a thing need not reflect its purpose, orientation, meaning, or any other concrete or abstract property of the thing. It's just a name. Look, I've already said I don't like the term, and in fact I think that eventually, as PC hardware (and the software that runs on it) continues to evolve, it's going to become problematic. Except that it won't: when it becomes a problem, English-speaking humans will invent a new word to describe the class of computers they're discussing. That is how language works. But in the mean time, we have no other word to refer to the class of hardware that is based on Intel chipsets and is designed specifically to be compatible with Microsoft Windows (or indeed running said Windows). We need a word to distinguish this class of machines from Apple computers (which ironically now also use Intel, but are still clearly distinct from PCs, partially because they mainly run Windows), Sun computers, SGI computers, etc. The term "PC" has been relegated to that role, and the fact is that the vast majority of those computers run Windows today. It's also a fact that the overwhelming majority of English-speaking humans commonly use the term "PC" to mean what I've said (and also other similar things). Your complaints and arguments about alternate meanings of "PC" are irrelevant, pointless, and futile. Even if the maintainers are convinced to change the name, it does not change the fact that the term will continue to be used that way by millions of humans, nor that they are not wrong for doing so, since it is
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It gets even worse... No Windows-based "PC" has ever used the >"PowerPC" processor -- which had been a staple of the Macintosh before >they went Intel... Actually the were personal computers sold using PowerPC processors that ran Windows NT. I even remember seeing one that had ISA slots. Ross Ridge -- l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU [oo][oo] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ db // -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On 2008-07-21, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote: >> On Jul 19, 6:14=A0am, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote: >> > Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC" >> > has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. =A0You may >> > not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as >> > well get used to it. >> >> That's not the point,=20 > > It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage > patterns of the people who use it. The term "PC" is commonly used in > English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to > mean a computer running Microsoft Windows. You mean the same computer is no longer considered a PC if someone install linux on it? -- Antoon Pardon -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 18:50 -0400, Derek Martin wrote: > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:47:31PM -0700, Lie wrote: > > Common usage isn't always correct. > > Actually it is, inherently... When usage becomes common, the language > becomes redefined, and its correctness is therefore true by identity > (to borrow a mathematical term). The scholars complain for a while, > but eventually capitulate, and re-write the dictionary. Language > bends to its use by the people, not the other way around. Your > assumption is the opposite, and therefore all of your argument is > false. But until the dictionary is rewritten, it is incorrect usage. Since dictionary isn't rewritten unless (nearly) the whole world agrees with it, not all parts of the world used the term PC exclusively for Windows-based computer, in this part of the world specifically, PC is used for any desktop computers. Therefore your argument is false (at least: yet). > > For example, a physicist would not use weight when he meant mass. > > much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In > > this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to > > be a technical area. > > Your analogy is still broken. The term "PC" has been used BY > TECHNCIAL PEOPLE, IN A TECHNICAL CONTEXT, to mean Microsoft on Intel, > FOR DECADES. Yes, and they are wrong on using it. So do some physicist, before the clear distinction is drawn explicitly between mass and weight. FOR DECADES, people used the term PC for all sorts of things, in the most technically correct usage, only IBM-branded home computers could be called a PC, since PC is officially their advertising term. However, since Personal Computer is a brand-neutral term (unlike iMac, Lifebook, etc), it have the tendency to be extended (by the people) to include other personally owned computers as well. The technically correct extension would be "PC is computers that is designed and marketed for personal possession and use", which means it doesn't matter what OS it is, what hardware it uses. A debate (or a long observation to the people) might be needed to determine whether that definition extension is acceptable, but the definition extension you mentioned: "PC is Windows-based computer" needs no debate, it is completely wrong and is a baseless misunderstanding. > + Authors of technical books, manuals, and other forms of >documentation have refered to them as PCs... for decades. > > + Educators in CS and EE at major universities have refer to them as >PCs, since at least as early as 1988 (when I started college). I'm sure they were mentioning IBM-PC and its clones, not mentioning Windows itself. (Well, it's true that IBM-PC and its clones is mostly Windows-based, but PC is a term for the combination of hardware and software that makes a personal computer, in the current incorrect usage, PC is Windows, a software.) > + Industry news publications such as Computer World have refered to >them as PCs, for decades. > > + There are even whole magazines dedicated to them! (PC Magazine, PC >Shopper, PC World, PC Gamer, etc.) They are dedicated to Microsoft >on Intel, and have existed (at least in some cases) long before >Apple started talking about PCs in their ads. Excuse me, those magazines (at least in this part of the world) also contain non-Microsoft articles. The fact that Windows articles is the dominant topic, is solely because most of their subscribers are Windows user, it is not as profitable to write about Linux and Mac and Unix. > All of this has been going on, essentially since there has been such > a thing as the IBM PC. I'm sorry, but you sir, are quite simply, > plainly, and completely, wrong. Compounded with misunderstanding, you sir, are very well ignorant. > With a catastrophic amount of > written documentation, written by technical people in the computer > industry over the last 20+ years, to prove it. > > > > > Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing, > > > > > > And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such > > > thing. > > > > They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers. > > APPLE CAN NOT POPULARIZE A TERM WHICH IS ALREADY POPULAR. Sure it catches the wave that has been going on for some time. And use it to their own advantage. I've mentioned that Apple could not be blamed so much for this, since with or without them, the term would become popular, although its meaning mightn't have been as twisted as nowadays. > > This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is > > misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC. > > They haven't implied anything; they're stating it outright! Apple > sells personal computers, but they do not sell PCs. Apple's personal > computer is NOT a PC, and never was, and never will be. It's an > Apple. Apple's personal computer is NOT a PC? Aren't you contradicting yourself? Just like what Apple, you have just said: "I'm Apple,
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:47:31PM -0700, Lie wrote: > Common usage isn't always correct. Actually it is, inherently... When usage becomes common, the language becomes redefined, and its correctness is therefore true by identity (to borrow a mathematical term). The scholars complain for a while, but eventually capitulate, and re-write the dictionary. Language bends to its use by the people, not the other way around. Your assumption is the opposite, and therefore all of your argument is false. > For example, a physicist would not use weight when he meant mass. > much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In > this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to > be a technical area. Your analogy is still broken. The term "PC" has been used BY TECHNCIAL PEOPLE, IN A TECHNICAL CONTEXT, to mean Microsoft on Intel, FOR DECADES. + Authors of technical books, manuals, and other forms of documentation have refered to them as PCs... for decades. + Educators in CS and EE at major universities have refer to them as PCs, since at least as early as 1988 (when I started college). + Industry news publications such as Computer World have refered to them as PCs, for decades. + There are even whole magazines dedicated to them! (PC Magazine, PC Shopper, PC World, PC Gamer, etc.) They are dedicated to Microsoft on Intel, and have existed (at least in some cases) long before Apple started talking about PCs in their ads. All of this has been going on, essentially since there has been such a thing as the IBM PC. I'm sorry, but you sir, are quite simply, plainly, and completely, wrong. With a catastrophic amount of written documentation, written by technical people in the computer industry over the last 20+ years, to prove it. > > > Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing, > > > > And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such > > thing. > > They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers. APPLE CAN NOT POPULARIZE A TERM WHICH IS ALREADY POPULAR. > This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is > misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC. They haven't implied anything; they're stating it outright! Apple sells personal computers, but they do not sell PCs. Apple's personal computer is NOT a PC, and never was, and never will be. It's an Apple. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D pgpM3T8xzDRmR.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Change PC to Win or Windows
> From: Derek Martin > The term "PC" is commonly used in > English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to > mean a computer running Microsoft Windows. That isn't quite true. My kids are heading off to college and are in the market for laptops. The question they had for the salesman was if there was anything other than Vista available. I was so proud. His response was that they no longer bother with XP. Another customer suggested that they look at Apple and another customer suggested dual booting it with Ubuntu ( why not Fedora? ). I was shocked when I asked if either were in the field. Nope, a mechanic and doctor. While it might have been true that PCs were becoming synonymous with Windows boxes, I think that tide is heading back the other way. Particularly when I hear that the Apple boxes are becoming very popular as they work better with iPods and iPhones than does Windows. The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 16:45 -0400, Derek Martin wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:32:00PM -0700, Lie wrote:
> > > The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
> > > and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
> > > Microsoft Windows.
> >
> > As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
> > even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows.
>
> You are missing two points.
>
> The first one: It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the
> terminology to be common. It only matters that it IS common. It is;
> and it is therefore "correct" in the sense that it conveys a meaning
> to the overwhelming majority of English speakers, which is the
> intended one.
>
True, it doesn't actually matters, but it is a proof that it is
technically incorrect to apply PC JUST to Windows-based PC. It is
arguable whether the term should only be exclusively to IBM-PC or
whether the term should be expanded to include its clones. But I'm
against on using it just to refer Windows-based PC exclusively, since
it is neither Microsoft's marketing term nor a literal meaning
conveyed in the term.
> As for the question of whether or not it is appropriate to refer to
> Windows installations as "PC", it's as simple as that. It is, by
> definition (via common usage). That is what this thread is about.
>
Common usage isn't always correct. For example, a physicist would not
use weight when he meant mass. Although in daily use he might not care
much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In
this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to
be a technical area.
> The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
> > ("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
> > explain below.
>
> Your explanation is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the
> term PC is an inappropriate term to describe a Windows installation,
> which is what this thread is about. That is the premise put forth by
> the OP, and that is the notion to which I am responding. It simply is
> not wrong or inappropriate in any sense; it is in fact correct,
> regardless of how the meaning or usage resulted, and regardless of any
> ADDITIONAL meanings the term may have.
>
> For what it's worth, your explanation is also WRONG; the term PC
> began to be popularly used in the United States to describe
> Intel-based Microsoft machines when there was a proliferation of other
> kinds of personal computers available to consumers. When it was first
> used this way, the IBM PC was *NOT* the most popular personal computer...
> the Commodore 64 was.
>
True, but PC is IBM's marketing term, thus it originally belongs to
them. Nevertheless, it is NOT Window's marketing term and the literal
meaning of Personal Computer is in no way means Windows-based
computers ONLY.
> It dates from a time when the Commodore VIC-20
> and C64, Atari 400 and 800, Timex Sinclair, and other computers were
> all very popluar home machines.
But they aren't called PC, why? Because IBM hasn't invented the term.
Nowadays, they might be called as PC or not depending on which side
are you in: "PC as IBM-PC" or "PC as personal computer" (note the
lower case)
> The term probably originated primarily because IBM chose to name their
> computer the IBM PC, and because of Americans' predeliction to
> abbreviate everything that's more than 2 syllables. ;-)
>
> > > It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
> > > in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
> > > exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
> > > refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.
> >
> > Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,
>
> And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
> thing.
They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers. IF they
have used the term "Regular PC", noone would have complained, it's
just like an apple farmer advertising his "Super Apples" and calls
other apples "Regular Apples", there would be nothing wrong about it.
But there is this specific apple farmer who advertised his apple as
"Orange" and calls other apples as "Apples", which makes a problem
since "Orange" is just a different variants of apple, and is still an
apple. This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is
misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC.
> They are only using a term in a way that has previously been
> popularized by the computer industry as a whole, and its market (i.e.
> consumers, predominantly American consumers historically) for
> *DECADES*.
> If I'm not mistaken, their ad campaign mentioning PCs is
> less than 10 years old (though I can't quickly find any references as
> to the date). The popularization of the term PC to refer to
> Intel-compatible machines running Microsoft OSes PREDATES APPLE'S AD
> CAMPAIGN BY OVER 10 YEARS.
When did I say that Appl
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:32:00PM -0700, Lie wrote:
> > The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
> > and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
> > Microsoft Windows.
>
> As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
> even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows.
You are missing two points.
The first one: It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the
terminology to be common. It only matters that it IS common. It is;
and it is therefore "correct" in the sense that it conveys a meaning
to the overwhelming majority of English speakers, which is the
intended one.
As for the question of whether or not it is appropriate to refer to
Windows installations as "PC", it's as simple as that. It is, by
definition (via common usage). That is what this thread is about.
> The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
> ("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
> explain below.
Your explanation is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the
term PC is an inappropriate term to describe a Windows installation,
which is what this thread is about. That is the premise put forth by
the OP, and that is the notion to which I am responding. It simply is
not wrong or inappropriate in any sense; it is in fact correct,
regardless of how the meaning or usage resulted, and regardless of any
ADDITIONAL meanings the term may have.
For what it's worth, your explanation is also WRONG; the term PC
began to be popularly used in the United States to describe
Intel-based Microsoft machines when there was a proliferation of other
kinds of personal computers available to consumers. When it was first
used this way, the IBM PC was *NOT* the most popular personal computer...
the Commodore 64 was. It dates from a time when the Commodore VIC-20
and C64, Atari 400 and 800, Timex Sinclair, and other computers were
all very popluar home machines.
The term probably originated primarily because IBM chose to name their
computer the IBM PC, and because of Americans' predeliction to
abbreviate everything that's more than 2 syllables. ;-)
> > It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
> > in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
> > exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
> > refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.
>
> Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,
And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing. They are only using a term in a way that has previously been
popularized by the computer industry as a whole, and its market (i.e.
consumers, predominantly American consumers historically) for
*DECADES*. If I'm not mistaken, their ad campaign mentioning PCs is
less than 10 years old (though I can't quickly find any references as
to the date). The popularization of the term PC to refer to
Intel-compatible machines running Microsoft OSes PREDATES APPLE'S AD
CAMPAIGN BY OVER 10 YEARS.
Therefore none of your points are valid or relevant, as to the
question of whether the usage of the term "PC" to describe windows
builds of Python is appropriate.
Can we return to the subject of Python now?
--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
pgpaJhm9UM6EY.pgp
Description: PGP signature
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
> It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage
> patterns of the people who use it.
That is inarguably correct.
> The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
> and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
> Microsoft Windows.
As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows. If the
world is still back in the 80s or 90s when people that use computers
means they're knowledgeable enough about computer, PCs would be either
applied to "all kinds of small computer/microcomputer" or only to "IBM-
branded microcomputers", the latter because PC is originally IBM's
marketing term, the former is a natural expansion of the meaning since
"Personal Computer" is a neutral term, unlike marketing terms like:
"TravelMate", "Lifebook", "MacBook", "GeForce", etc. "Personal
Computer" is more like the term "Mobile Phone" which is brand-neutral
and is usable by any brand, regardless of how the term originated.
The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.
> That's a simple fact that you can not escape, no matter how
> much you may not like it (it just so happens that I also don't l
> ike it, but I realized long ago the futility of arguing against
> its usage). It's still a fact, and I described roughly how
> that fact came to be.
> It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
> in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
> exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
> refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.
Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing, but the real blame
is to Microsoft's dominance, though it is without their explicit
consent, blessing, or resistance. Not entirely Microsoft's fault for
being dominant, but their dominance in the lower level users makes
those lower level user unaware of other OSes and applied the term PC
to Windows-based computers. When other OSes are gaining popularity
again (i.e. when Microsoft starts to lose its total and complete
dominance, i.e. around right now) the term's meaning become a huge
matter because people associated the term with Microsoft Windows (i.e.
software), not with IBM-PC and its clones anymore (i.e. hardware).
On Jul 21, 11:50 pm, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:
> > government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
> > people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
> > referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
> > that is designed for personal use.
>
> Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG. PC-clones were so called
> because they were clones of the IBM-PC. The term is very specific to
> IBM-compatible hardware.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone
>
> IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the
> original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to
> as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated
> all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design,
> facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse
> engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design.
>
> Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects
> the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage
> to mean a Windows box:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
>
> Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a
> tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft
> Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors
> are x86 compatible CPUs. However, the term "PC" is often used
> only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows.
>
> So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF
> THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box.
The rest of the world? Not in this part of the world, not in my whole
country at the least...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote: > government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary > people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're > referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer > that is designed for personal use. Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG. PC-clones were so called because they were clones of the IBM-PC. The term is very specific to IBM-compatible hardware. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design, facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design. Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage to mean a Windows box: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors are x86 compatible CPUs. However, the term "PC" is often used only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows. So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D pgpWskQ7X4hnX.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote: > On Jul 19, 6:14 am, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote: > > Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC" > > has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. You may > > not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as > > well get used to it. > > That's not the point, It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage patterns of the people who use it. The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running Microsoft Windows. That's a simple fact that you can not escape, no matter how much you may not like it (it just so happens that I also don't like it, but I realized long ago the futility of arguing against its usage). It's still a fact, and I described roughly how that fact came to be. It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although exactly what combination of hardware and software was being refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe. PC was a short form of "personal computer", which is how IBM came up with the name. Nevertheless, with the ubiquity of IBM hardware, and subsequent popularity of clones running Microsoft operating systems, the term "PC" has, in the present day, come to mean "a personal computer based on Intel-compatible hardware running a flavor of Microsoft Windows." It is used this way by the consumer computer industry, and it is used this way by the common population. Ipso facto "PC" means a windows box, in common English usage today. You don't have to like it, and you don't even have to acknowledge it. But if you choose not to, or argue against using it that way, you're in denial, plain and simple. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D pgpLN8hSeYEOH.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:34:41PM -0700, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote: > > > Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would > > > not have to directly mention Windows. > > > > Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of > > Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer... I'm well aware... congratulations on completely missing the point. I was describing how the term PC has become synonimous with Windows machines. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D pgpbl4K02hAFc.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Saturday 19 July 2008 22:30:29 Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > I still wonder who came up with the Commodore PET -- Personal > Electronic Transactor... yeesh... But the "Personal" was already in play > way back then. Probably Chuck Peddle, Jack Tramiel or Leonard Tramiel. For your amusement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_2001 Greetings, -- "The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing." - Vinod Vallopillil http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween4.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even... >> >> Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked >> with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other >> CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My >> recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined. > > The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying > âcommodore 64 - personal computerâ. > and I cut my programming teeth on a Sharp MZ80K personal computer. http://www.sharpmz.org/mz-80k/images/mz80kade1_1.jpg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even... > > Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked > with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other > CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My > recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined. The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying “commodore 64 - personal computer”. Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
Grant Edwards schrieb: Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked with varioius Commodore machines, My C64 has a label that says "Personal Computer" on it. So a C64 is a PC. Sebastian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:
>> > Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
>> > not have to directly mention Windows.
>>
>> Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of
>
> Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer...
I had never heard PC or "Personal Computer" until the IBM-PC.
Before that, such compturs were called "micro computers"
> Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...
Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.
> Being a computer small enough to be single-user ("personal")
> vs a department-wide mini, or company-wide mainframe...
I remember those being called microcomputers. A "PC" meant an IBM.
--
Grant
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Jul 19, 6:14 am, Derek Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:
> > Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
> > not have to directly mention Windows.
>
> Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of
> course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them...
> Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel
> hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called,
> collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and
> its market. Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building
> Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems
> built using those architectures. Eventually Windows was released, and
> PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I
> personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way...
>
> Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
> has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. You may
> not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
> well get used to it.
>
> --
> Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/
> GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
>
> application_pgp-signature_part
> 1KDownload
That's not the point, PC is personal computer, a computer that is
owned personally, instead of being owned by a department, a company, a
government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use. The brand of the computer, the type
of processors, Operating System, etc doesn't qualify a computer as PC
or not-PC, what qualify a computer as a PC is its design and marketing
and popular usage. Design: a computer that is designed to be small,
cheap, and easy-to-use to be owned personally. Marketing: how the
computer is marketed as, the marketing people generally follows the
designer on what to mark a computer as. Popular Usage: What the people
who bought the computer used it for, this generally follows the
marketing terms used on the computer.
In short, Apple's computers (Mac, OSX) are PC too, and is not less PC
than any other PCs. In fact any computers owned and used by a person
(instead of a group of persons) is a personal computer. This way
saying windows-based computer as PC is correct, however badmouthing PC
while advertising itself is the same as badmouthing itself in its own
advertisement.
In a more programming term:
class PC(object):
def who(self):
print('I am a PC')
class IBMPC(PC):
def who(self):
super(IBMPC, self).who()
print 'My brand is IBM'
class Windows(PC):
def who(self):
super(Windows, self).who()
print 'My OS is Windows'
class Mac(PC):
def who(self):
super(Mac, self).who()
# denies thyself
print 'but I do not want to be called as PC'
print 'My OS is Mac'
Apple is an ungrateful son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Malin_Kundang ). May they turns back to realize themselves before they
turned into a stone.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:32 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would > > not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC > > that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to > > Win or Windows. > > That's bikeshedding. If the name stops you from building your own > binaries, you should use prebuilt binaries, or read the documentation. > > Regards, > Martin > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > Thank you for introducing me to a fabulous new word. Had to look it up, but I like it. -- Stand Fast, tjg. [Timothy Grant] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On 2008-07-18, Martin v. Löwis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so >> they would not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the >> places that say PC that are not referring to Personal >> Computers in general be changed to Win or Windows. > > That's bikeshedding. :) I had to look that one up. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! An INK-LING? Sure -- at TAKE one!! Did you BUY any visi.comCOMMUNIST UNIFORMS?? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
> Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would > not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC > that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to > Win or Windows. That's bikeshedding. If the name stops you from building your own binaries, you should use prebuilt binaries, or read the documentation. Regards, Martin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Change PC to Win or Windows
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote: > Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would > not have to directly mention Windows. Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them... Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called, collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and its market. Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems built using those architectures. Eventually Windows was released, and PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way... Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC" has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. You may not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as well get used to it. -- Derek D. Martin http://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D pgpGebEnJc6Ql.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Change PC to Win or Windows
In trunk of the svn there is a folder called PCbuild. Now lets say that I am running linux on my Personal Computer and want to build python. I go into the PCbuild directory, but wait. This is for windows not for any personal computer. Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to Win or Windows. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
