Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . good reason exception. I dunno about suggest. I do see that . . . URL: http://labs.google.com//suggestfaq.html , to ensure we're all talking about the same thing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Thanks for the comments. I kind of get the impression that CGI is the way to go for this application, and that I should forget about adding client-side scripting based functionality for the sake of accessibility - which I understand and kind of agree with. I'll look into the problem of concurrent access to an XML file. I may get back to the group about this! Cheers -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Rob Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks for the comments. I kind of get the impression that CGI is the way to go for this application, and that I should forget about adding client-side scripting based functionality for the sake of accessibility - which I understand and kind of agree with. I don't see any intrinsic reason for client-side scripting, or JavaScript in particular, messing up accessibility. One can fall back to vanilla HTML+CSS for people who don't have JS turned on. I don't say it's easy, though. I don't know what you intend the content of your Masters to be, but this seems like an interesting and useful thing to work on, and a fashionable topic to boot: write your app as one piece of code that can run happily with JavaScript (and taking advantage of AJAX) or without (without resort to if statements in your application code, obviously ;-). Personally, I'm anticipating the day I can change an import statement in my Qt GUI applications and run them on the web (== JavaScript + HTML + CSS + HTTP) 0.5 wink. In the mean time, I recommend Quixote (yes, you can run it on CGI). Lots of people seem to like Twisted, too (nevow has some AJAX support), though perhaps Twisted and CGI don't sensibly go together (and I certainly understand the desire to avoid long-running server processes). If you're interested in new stuff, certainly take a look at Kamaelia (after you've oriented yourself a bit by writing a tiny web app or two!). I'll look into the problem of concurrent access to an XML file. I may get back to the group about this! From my own unpleasant experience, CGI + locking = pain. At least if you don't have full control of the server (even then, do yourself a favour, use a DBMS, and let somebody else worry about some of the hard parts of locking, transactions c.). Why not keep the XML in a database blob, if somebody insists on an XML-based implementation? Or, more sane, store your data in the DB, then just write out XML, which presumably solves the *real* problem for which XML is the solution (interoperability)? have-the-appropriate-amount-of-fun-ly y'rs, John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Hi, This is my first post so go easy! I have been asked (as part of an MSc project) to create a server based planner for a research group at my uni. It will have a web interface to interact with data stored in an XML document. Basic functionality is required such as viewing, searching, editing, creating and deleting entries for things such as paper submission deadlines, events, funding application deadlines. I would also like to use AJAX principles in the web interface. Additionaly, it must email a BibTex file once a month to a predetermined address. I'm totally new to web programming. I have been looking into the best way to proceed. CGI is of course an option but it seems slow, clunky and outdated. Twisted provides a rich architecture but might be overkill. Nevow seems to be very popular. I suspect I could achieve what I want using PHP but I would really like to get to grip with Python. I'm not asking for a comparison of each architecture per se that seems to be well covered in this group. I would like to know how you all would set about creating this realtively simple application. Cheers, Rob Cowie Coventry University, Britain -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28 May 2005, Rob Cowie wrote: [...] I'm totally new to web programming. I have been looking into the best way to proceed. CGI is of course an option but it seems slow, clunky and outdated. Twisted provides a rich architecture but might be overkill. Nevow seems to be very popular. You know, slow from 10 years ago, when this opinion formulated, is not the same slow nowadays. Imho, CGI is more straightforward and you can learn it faster. After all, you have not only to make a web output but also some mechanics under the hood - manipulating data etc. BTW, does it have to be stored in xml file? The SQL database could be easier. You can add import and export to/from xml file if this is really needed. Whether it is too slow - well, how many times do you expect people will open this page? I mean, how many times a second? I think this is the most important question when deciding about CGI. You may also consider mod_python: http://www.modpython.org/ I suspect I could achieve what I want using PHP but I would really like to get to grip with Python. I'm not asking for a comparison of each architecture per se that seems to be well covered in this group. I would like to know how you all would set about creating this realtively simple application. Personally, I would rather use Python. Right now, this app may seem to be simple but I think it will grow over time. I'm not very used to PHP but those simple things I did in it make me think Python may help me more as a language, to program a page. PHP is probably more popular in web desing circles, and there are some nice packages written in it, that you can drag from the web and drop into your server, and have all those blogs and webmails the easy way. But for programming, and later on for maintaining such project, I'd rather go with Python. Personal reason: it is cleaner, I like looking at it. Of course you should decide for yourself. I've just pointed to few things but it is up to you to taste both languages and decide which one is better in your case. Regards, Tomasz Rola - -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did rm -rif on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBQpi3VxETUsyL9vbiEQJm6wCdEuOSUKKf7ZERnHOKvezqU9UJ9+QAn18a GkUjNiMrCaXyQFNU0z7Jj3nq =4LU4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Rob Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have been asked (as part of an MSc project) to create a server based planner for a research group at my uni. It will have a web interface to interact with data stored in an XML document. Why not just a regular database? Basic functionality is required such as viewing, searching, editing, creating and deleting entries for things such as paper submission deadlines, events, funding application deadlines. I would also like to use AJAX principles in the web interface. Yecch, just use standard HTML, don't depend on client scripting without a concrete good reason. It makes stuff more confusing for both human and automated users, and makes people weaken their browser security by enabling scripting. That stuff went out of style with pop-up ads. Additionaly, it must email a BibTex file once a month to a predetermined address. That's no big deal. I'm totally new to web programming. I have been looking into the best way to proceed. CGI is of course an option but it seems slow, clunky and outdated. Twisted provides a rich architecture but might be overkill. Nevow seems to be very popular. CGI is conceptually the simplest, but leaves you needing to do a bunch of stuff yourself. A database back end helps a lot in dealing with concurrent updates. There's a bunch of other Python web frameworks too (Spyce, CherryPy, Zope, ...). For a generic overview, you might look at the now-somewhat-outdated book Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing, http://philip.greenspun.com/panda/ I suspect I could achieve what I want using PHP but I would really like to get to grip with Python. If the goal is simply to get to the finish line, PHP might get you there faster for something like this. If it's an academic project where the journey is the reward there's lots of things you can try. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
I agree with the sentiments that a single XML file is not the way to go for storing data that may be accessed concurrently. However, my hands are tied. It seems that CGI is likely to be the most straightforward option. Is the learning curve likely to be steeper for pure CGI or a web application architecture such as Nevow? Paul. I agree that client-side scripting increases the level of compexity, but did it really go out of fashion with pop-ups? It seems to be just getting started. Google use it to great effect maps, suggest etc. I wasn't thinking of using it to deal with any 'business logic', just to add some dynamism to the interface - use XMLhttprequests, a bit of DOM scripting etc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Rob Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul. I agree that client-side scripting increases the level of compexity, but did it really go out of fashion with pop-ups? It seems to be just getting started. Google use it to great effect maps, suggest etc. I wasn't thinking of using it to deal with any 'business logic', just to add some dynamism to the interface - use XMLhttprequests, a bit of DOM scripting etc. It's clearly not gone. Just remember, that people do turn it off for security reasons. Doing so also does a good job of killing popups and the like. I normally run with JavaScript off, and the local city government has installed IE with it disabled on all their desktops. So make sure the functionality of the site doesn't require javascript to be enabled. This may require duplicating functionality, but you can save your design by hiding the non-javascript version of the functionality in a noscript element. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Rob Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul. I agree that client-side scripting increases the level of compexity, but did it really go out of fashion with pop-ups? It seems to be just getting started. Pop-ups and scripting-related security holes are why the cool kids all surf with Javascript turned off. Who cares about what Joe Sixpack is doing? ;-) Anyway, don't increase complexity without a good reason. Google use it to great effect maps, suggest etc. I wasn't thinking of using it to deal with any 'business logic', There is some case to be made that the Google maps interface presents concrete good reasons to use scripting, falling into the concrete good reason exception. I dunno about suggest. I do see that Google Groups uses scripting in an unnecessary and obnoxious way, just like most other uses of scripting. You're doing a text-only service so you shouldn't even depend on graphics being available in the browser (your system is IMO defective it doesn't work properly with Lynx). just to add some dynamism to the interface - use XMLhttprequests, a bit of DOM scripting etc. That's sort of vague. A concrete good reason means a specific set of benefits you can provide to the user with scripting that you can't provide without scripting. See also: http://www.anybrowser.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Help with choice of suitable Architecture
Rob Cowie wrote: I agree with the sentiments that a single XML file is not the way to go for storing data that may be accessed concurrently. However, my hands are tied. You might like to see the thread write to the same file from multiple processes at the same time? for a preview of the issues this raises. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/475d065fa7871e63/c2fc42fefe114d38?hl=en#c2fc42fefe114d38 Kent -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
