Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Jorge Godoy]

Nick Craig-Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Attempting to bring this discussion back on topic: Emacs has a few
> python modes also.  There is the basic python-mode which does
> everything expected of a major-mode.  Syntax colouring, indentation
> that sort of thing.  There is also IM-Python for code navigation, and
> bycycle repair man for refactoring support.  You can run stuff at the
> interactive python prompt from within emacs.

Besides, even though PyDev's indentation got a little better it isn't as smart
as Emacs'.  Being a language where indentation matters, I find Emacs much more
productive and this only feature is a major problem to "migrate" from Emacs to
Eclipse. 

But, who knows when Eclipse gets better it will have the power needed to
implement the same set of indentation rules...

-- 
Jorge Godoy  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Nick Craig-Wood]

Jorge Godoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Eclipse: just a GUI over a subset of Emacs today.

;-)

>  One day, when it evolves, it will be something interesting...  I
>  won't give up on Emacs loading fast

I never thought I'd live to see emacs being quoted as loading fast!
It really is fast compared to Eclipse though.

  "E"ight(y) "M"egs "A"nd "C"onstantly "S"wapping

Trouble is is that Eclipse is Eight-Hundred Megs ;-)

This message written in emacs, which I love dearly and have spent the
last 10 years mastering!  I did try Eclipse but I found it too slow
and clunky and there was far too much GUI (I like my whole screen to
be the file I'm editing).

Attempting to bring this discussion back on topic: Emacs has a few
python modes also.  There is the basic python-mode which does
everything expected of a major-mode.  Syntax colouring, indentation
that sort of thing.  There is also IM-Python for code navigation, and
bycycle repair man for refactoring support.  You can run stuff at the
interactive python prompt from within emacs.

-- 
Nick Craig-Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Dan Sommers]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:34:14 +0200,
"Ramon Diaz-Uriarte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ... I guess, though, that this is very personal ...

Absolutely.

> ... and that I might be missing the point of Eclipse (and I don't do
> any Java programming).

The point of Eclipse is to lessen the burden imposed by Java.  :-/

(I can say that now that they've been making me write Java at work for a
few months.  Without starting a language flamewar, I can definitely
understand why the Java folks are so into their IDEs while us Python
folks can get along as well or better with grep and a decent REPL.)

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers

"I wish people would die in alphabetical order." -- My wife, the genealogist
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Jorge Godoy]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> >> #> I realize I can do a lot within Emacs/XEmacs, but I suspect with a
> >> #> tool like Eclipse I could do more. However, I don't want to give
> >> #> up the text editing power of Emacs to get it.
> ...
> Ramon> I've tried using Eclipse several times, because several good
> Ramon> meaning people told me things like "you coud do more". 
>
> My observation about Eclipse comes simply from watching one of the other
> developers at work use it.  I'd like to give it a try, but not at the
> expense of giving up Emacs.

Eclipse: just a GUI over a subset of Emacs today.

One day, when it evolves, it will be something interesting...  I won't give up
on Emacs loading fast and allowing me to work remotely for something that
makes the machine crawl and requires almost all of the RAM I have.

-- 
Jorge Godoy  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[skip]

>> #> I realize I can do a lot within Emacs/XEmacs, but I suspect with a
>> #> tool like Eclipse I could do more. However, I don't want to give
>> #> up the text editing power of Emacs to get it.
...
Ramon> I've tried using Eclipse several times, because several good
Ramon> meaning people told me things like "you coud do more". 

My observation about Eclipse comes simply from watching one of the other
developers at work use it.  I'd like to give it a try, but not at the
expense of giving up Emacs.

Skip
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

On 10/14/06, Slawomir Nowaczyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:01:17 -0500
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

(...)
> #> I realize I can do a lot within Emacs/XEmacs, but I suspect with a
> #> tool like Eclipse I could do more. However, I don't want to give up
> #> the text editing power of Emacs to get it.
>
> I don't know... I have never, personally, used Eclipse, so I cannot
> comment on that. It is highly dependent on what you are working on, I
> presume.
>


I've tried using Eclipse several times, because several good meaning
people told me things like "you coud do more". But I've always: a)
felt overwhelmed and lost (like in "this is way too complex"); b) felt
deprived of valuable screen real-state (it might be personal thing,
because on my .emacs I turn off the toolbar and menu bar); c)
eventually felt that time reading the Eclipse tutorial and docs would
be better spent reading more of the Emacs manual. I guess, though,
that this is very personal, and that I might be missing the point of
Eclipse (and I don't do any Java programming).


-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Statistical Computing Team
Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
http://ligarto.org/rdiaz
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Ben Finney]

Slawomir Nowaczyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Well, I haven't yet seen a definition of "Integrated Development
> Environment" which would exclude Emacs...

+1 QOTW

Amen to that.

-- 
 \   "Never use a long word when there's a commensurate diminutive |
  `\ available."  -- Stan Kelly-Bootle |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Slawomir Nowaczyk]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:01:17 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

#> 
#> Slawomir> #> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that
#> Slawomir> #> to the best of my knowledge none of them will integrate
#> Slawomir> #> properly with external editors like Emacs or vi.
#> 
#> Slawomir> To the best of *my* knowledge, Emacs integrates pretty well
#> Slawomir> with Emacs, and I suppose vi integrates pretty well with
#> Slawomir> vi... Or do you mean something else by "IDE"?
#> 
#> By IDE I mean "Integrated Development Environment".

Well, I haven't yet seen a definition of "Integrated Development
Environment" which would exclude Emacs...

#> I realize I can do a lot within Emacs/XEmacs, but I suspect with a
#> tool like Eclipse I could do more. However, I don't want to give up
#> the text editing power of Emacs to get it.

I don't know... I have never, personally, used Eclipse, so I cannot
comment on that. It is highly dependent on what you are working on, I
presume.

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
 ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )

Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, 'Where have I gone wrong?'
Then a voice says to me, 'This is going to take more than one night.

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[skip]

Slawomir> #> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that
Slawomir> #> to the best of my knowledge none of them will integrate
Slawomir> #> properly with external editors like Emacs or vi.

Slawomir> To the best of *my* knowledge, Emacs integrates pretty well
Slawomir> with Emacs, and I suppose vi integrates pretty well with
Slawomir> vi... Or do you mean something else by "IDE"?

By IDE I mean "Integrated Development Environment".  I realize I can do a
lot within Emacs/XEmacs, but I suspect with a tool like Eclipse I could do
more.  However, I don't want to give up the text editing power of Emacs to
get it.

Skip
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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Slawomir Nowaczyk]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:04:56 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

#> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the
#> best of my knowledge none of them will integrate properly with
#> external editors like Emacs or vi.

To the best of *my* knowledge, Emacs integrates pretty well with Emacs,
and I suppose vi integrates pretty well with vi... Or do you mean
something else by "IDE"?

PS. Good sigmonster, have a cookie ;)

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
 ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )

Vi is to emacs as masturbation is to making love:
effective and always available but probably not your first choice.

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[robert]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the best of my
> knowledge none of them will integrate properly with external editors like
> Emacs or vi.  I know lots of tools support "Emacs-like keybindings", but
> believe me, I've never found one that does a decent job of that.  There is
> just so much more to powerful editors like Emacs or vi than a handful of
> cursor movement commands.  Once a person is proficient they generally won't
> accept substitutes.
> 
> So, please prove me wrong.  Are there any IDEs that will actually work with
> an external instance of Emacs (either by firing it up or by using a remote
> connection program like gnuclient)?

I don't use an IDE when coding on *nix, but I use decent Pythonwin on 
Windows (never found one of these other monster IDEs fluent/better enough)

It detects immediately when a file on disk changed and asks to reload 
form file or not - any good code editor should do this. The sc1-based 
editors ones do this usually. Thus one can without worries edit in 
different editors simultaneously.

Also in Pythonwins py-code or .ini settings it would be very easy to 
implement a 1-liner for a key stroke which opens the current file in an 
external editor. So that should do it.
The same practice should be possible easly with almost any *nix IDE 
which is written open source in python or lisp ... or has other easy 
script customization capabs.
(But I think there are no decent python IDE's on *nix :-( )

-robert


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Eclim: Vim interface to Eclipse (was: IDE that uses an external editor?)

[Ben Finney]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the
> best of my knowledge none of them will integrate properly with
> external editors like Emacs or vi.

The Eclim project exposes Eclipse functionality and then uses Vim as
an interface.

Instead of trying to write a java IDE in Vim or a Vim editor in
Eclipse, eclim provides an Eclipse plug-in that exposes Eclipse
features through a server interface, and a set of Vim plug-ins
that communicate with Eclipse over that interface (as illustrated
below).

http://eclim.sourceforge.net/>

-- 
 \  "I used to be a narrator for bad mimes."  -- Steven Wright |
  `\   |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Like said before, pida is a great IDE that supports vim as its external
editor and also the default editor called Culebra, I've used pida
myself and it has some nice features. It's still rough around the edges
and has bugs, but its useable.

It's written with the Kiwi framework, wich is a wrapper for PyGTK.

It has a codeoutliner pane (using ctags I think, but it looks very
clean), file explorer pane, project files, todo list, and even a built
in doc viewer (didnt work very wll with some docs). It also has a
todolist pane and a pane that displays errors caught by PyLint (very
useful). It has a built-in terminal and python interpreter. Supports
CVS and SVN for your projects!

For the most part I just use Vim alone, but pida definetely seems to
have a lot of potential. Be sure to get the latest version; I would use
pida if it wasnt for some minor bugs.

http://pida.berlios.de/

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the best of my
> knowledge none of them will integrate properly with external editors like
> Emacs or vi.  I know lots of tools support "Emacs-like keybindings", but
> believe me, I've never found one that does a decent job of that.  There is
> just so much more to powerful editors like Emacs or vi than a handful of
> cursor movement commands.  Once a person is proficient they generally won't
> accept substitutes.
>
> So, please prove me wrong.  Are there any IDEs that will actually work with
> an external instance of Emacs (either by firing it up or by using a remote
> connection program like gnuclient)?

For Java, I know Netbeans uses an external protocol to talk to other
editors.  Both XEmacs and vim are possibilities.

Recently, other projects like agide have started using the netbeans
protocol.  My guess would be that something like agide is exactly what
you want: it's more of a "tie my editor, project builder, debugger, etc
together seamlessly" concept than a "you will use this editor, this
project builder, and this debugger" concept.  Sort of an unintegrated
but federated development environment.  It's all written in Python, but
it's still sort-of in its infancy.

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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[John Purser]

On Fri, 2006-10-13 at 12:04 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the best of my
> knowledge none of them will integrate properly with external editors like
> Emacs or vi.  I know lots of tools support "Emacs-like keybindings", but
> believe me, I've never found one that does a decent job of that.  There is
> just so much more to powerful editors like Emacs or vi than a handful of
> cursor movement commands.  Once a person is proficient they generally won't
> accept substitutes.
> 
> So, please prove me wrong.  Are there any IDEs that will actually work with
> an external instance of Emacs (either by firing it up or by using a remote
> connection program like gnuclient)?
> 
> Thx,
> 
> Skip

What he said.  

I like a number of the IDEs.  Very handy.  But when I need to cut code I
want VIM.



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Re: IDE that uses an external editor?

[Carl Friedrich Bolz]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the best of my
> knowledge none of them will integrate properly with external editors like
> Emacs or vi.  I know lots of tools support "Emacs-like keybindings", but
> believe me, I've never found one that does a decent job of that.  There is
> just so much more to powerful editors like Emacs or vi than a handful of
> cursor movement commands.  Once a person is proficient they generally won't
> accept substitutes.
> 
> So, please prove me wrong.  Are there any IDEs that will actually work with
> an external instance of Emacs (either by firing it up or by using a remote
> connection program like gnuclient)?

I have never actually used it, but this project seems to integrate Vi
and other external editors:

http://pida.berlios.de/

Cheers,

Carl Friedrich Bolz

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IDE that uses an external editor?

[skip]

One thing that's kept me from even looking at IDEs is that to the best of my
knowledge none of them will integrate properly with external editors like
Emacs or vi.  I know lots of tools support "Emacs-like keybindings", but
believe me, I've never found one that does a decent job of that.  There is
just so much more to powerful editors like Emacs or vi than a handful of
cursor movement commands.  Once a person is proficient they generally won't
accept substitutes.

So, please prove me wrong.  Are there any IDEs that will actually work with
an external instance of Emacs (either by firing it up or by using a remote
connection program like gnuclient)?

Thx,

Skip
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