Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
In 87hax0suun@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com, on 04/03/2012 at 04:22 PM, Rainer Weikusat rweiku...@mssgmbh.com said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts Do you need the Quadrivium or is the Trivium enough for programming g, d r? If the term art is good enough for Knuth it's good enough for me. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT http://patriot.net/~shmuel Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not reply to spamt...@library.lspace.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 03:33:24 -0400, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote: If the term art is good enough for Knuth it's good enough for me. I think that may be the most intelligent comment so far... -- Some rise by sin and some by virtue fall. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On 2012-04-03 00:52:35 +0100, Jürgen Exner said: Oh, that's why it is tought in trade schools alongside butchery, plumbing, masonry, and chimney sweeping and why you don't find any programming classes at university. So, you know, no one would do law or medicine at a university. Oh, wait. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Chiron chiron613.no.spam.@no.spam.please.gmail.com wrote: 〈Is Programing Art or Science〉 Why is this question important? That's the whole point of the article/email. Xah basically says This question is stupid and only stupid people care about it. You probably should have read the email before replying to it. -- Devin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Xah Lee xah...@gmail.com wrote: So, is programing a art or science? is it art or science? I really need to know. Sience? Almost never. It's handcraft. Seldom, in very rare cases, it's true art for a very limited audience, mostly it's routine, and in many cases it's also idiocy. T.M. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Hi, Xah, In comp.emacs Xah Lee xah...@gmail.com wrote: For these computing jockeys, there remains the question of why Knuth named his books the ?Art? of Computer Programing, or why some computing luminaries litter the caution that programing is as much a art as science. What elite dimwits need to realize is that these authors are not defining or correcting, but breaking precepts among the automatons in programing industry. He was using art in the sense of the exercise of human skill (as distinguished from nature). That's the second definition in my dictionary. When people talk about, for example, the art of painting water colours, they mean the techniques of mixing paints, depicting objects on paper, etc. They are not referring to the artistic value of the painting painted. yours humbly, Xah -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Programming is neither Art nor Science It's practically maths [pun intended] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On 3/30/2012 4:27 AM, Xah Lee wrote: Is Programing Art or Science? Programming itself is a bit like being a natural language translator for an autistic person. You have to understand the message to be communicated, and then interpret it *very* literally for the listener. Note that programming is just one of a set of activities and skills that are part of software engineering. Others include UI design (which combines visual design, psychology, etc.), software architecture (which is like ... well, architecture) and various other skills. Collectively, engineering is the best catch-all description. Is building a bridge art or science? A little of both, and some other things as well. -pd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Xah Lee xah...@gmail.com writes: [...] For example, “Is mathematics science or art?”, is the same type of question that has been broached by dabblers now and then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts HTH. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On Apr 2, 5:48 pm, Pascal J. Bourguignon This is a narrow-minded definition of programming. Well, that's the point. If we make a list and include things like: computer science software engineering computer engineering discrete math logic formal methods web development computer graphics information technology information management data processing database management database administration network administration artificial intelligence ... and so on and so forth ... Some of these involve real art. Some of these involve real science. Even engineering can be considered as science, in a way, and perhaps art in a way. All these include programming! HOWEVER, 'programming' seen as 'talking to a computer' is neither an art nor a science, but simply a learned skill, like plumbing or cabinet making, or even medicine or law. I was a lawyer for 14 years, so I know what I'm talking about: the practice of law in the ordinary sense is simply that, the practice of law, and as such it's not an art nor a science, but simply a trade, albeit a highly skilled and abstract trade. And yes, lawyers can be artists and scientists, but neither one of these is basic to the practice of law. I'm not saying that artists and scientists can't be programmers. Many of them are. What I'm saying is that you can program a computer (i.e., practice programming) without being either an artist or a scientist. CC. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
ccc31807 carte...@gmail.com writes:
On Apr 2, 5:48 pm, Pascal J. Bourguignon
This is a narrow-minded definition of programming.
Well, that's the point.
If we make a list and include things like:
computer science
software engineering
computer engineering
discrete math
logic
formal methods
web development
computer graphics
information technology
information management
data processing
database management
database administration
network administration
artificial intelligence
... and so on and so forth ...
Some of these involve real art. Some of these involve real science.
Even engineering can be considered as science, in a way, and perhaps
art in a way. All these include programming! HOWEVER, 'programming'
seen as 'talking to a computer' is neither an art nor a science, but
simply a learned skill, like plumbing or cabinet making, or even
medicine or law.
I was a lawyer for 14 years, so I know what I'm talking about: the
practice of law in the ordinary sense is simply that, the practice of
law, and as such it's not an art nor a science, but simply a trade,
albeit a highly skilled and abstract trade. And yes, lawyers can be
artists and scientists, but neither one of these is basic to the
practice of law.
I'm not saying that artists and scientists can't be programmers. Many
of them are. What I'm saying is that you can program a computer (i.e.,
practice programming) without being either an artist or a scientist.
Well, of course. Those words designate different categories that are
not exclusive. So it's meaningless to say that programming is or is not
art or science.
Art is something that comes from a quality of the would-be artist.
Science is something that comes from a methodology applied by the
would-be scientist.
Program is something that comes from the work applied by the would-be
programmer.
You can be both a programmer and artist and produce a program
arstistically (like a torero), or an artistic program (like a painter).
You can be both a programmer and scientist, and produce a program
scientifically (like a mathematician), or a science program (like a
physicist).
You can be both a scientist and artist and produce science artistically,
or art scientifically.
You can be the three, producing programs artistically and
scientifically, or producing artisctic programs scientifically, or
producing scientific programs artistically, etc.
When you produce programs scientifically and artistically you're a
hacker.
It could be nice to produce scientific programs scientifically, and even
better if your scientific programs are also artistic (so that you can
show the science in an interesting way to the public).
http://www.ted.com/talks/joann_kuchera_morin_tours_the_allosphere.html
You can also produce art programmatically. For that you need to be both
an artist or a programmer. http://animusic.com/ Or you may try to split
the qualities among a team like at Pixar producing artistic movies
programmatically and scientifically like
http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/index.html
http://graphics.pixar.com/library/UntanglingCloth/paper.pdf
And the best is to produce scientific programs that are artistic,
scientifically and artistically.
Then you're an scientifico-artistico-hacker.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On Apr 3, 8:22 am, Rainer Weikusat rweiku...@mssgmbh.com wrote: Xah Lee xah...@gmail.com writes: [...] For example, “Is mathematics science or art?”, is the same type of question that has been broached by dabblers now and then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts this is the best reply in this thread! Xah -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Is Programing Art or Science?
the refreshen of the blood, from Xah's Entertainment Enterprise, i bring you: 〈Is Programing Art or Science〉 http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/art_or_science.html penned in the year of our lord two thousand and two, plain text version follows. Is Programing Art or Science? Dear friends, You mentioned the title of Donald Knuth's magnum opus Art of Programming in the context of discussion that fringes on whether programing is science or art. I'm quite pissed off at work at the moment, so let me take the time to give some guide on this matter to the daily programers. At the bottom rung of programers, there's no question about whether programing is science or art. Because monkey coders could not care less. These folks ain't be reading this post, for they hardly will have heard of lisp. This leaves us with elite programers who have a smattering of interests on cogitation and philosophical conundrums. So, is programing a science or art? For the programing morons, this question is associated with erudition. It certainly is a hip subject among hackers such as those hardcore Perl advocates and unix proponents, who would casually hint on such realization, impressing a sophistication among peers. Such a question is not uncommon among those curious. For example, “Is mathematics science or art?”, is the same type of question that has been broached by dabblers now and then. We can also detect such dilemma in the titles conferred to blathering computer jockeys: which one are thee: baccalaureate of science or baccalaureate of arts? It really makes no fucking difference. Ultimately, fantastically stupid questions like these are not discussed by mathematicians nor philosophers. These are natural language side-effects, trapping dummies to fuzz about nothing; not unlike quotations. For these computing jockeys, there remains the question of why Knuth named his books the “Art” of Computer Programing, or why some computing luminaries litter the caution that programing is as much a art as science. What elite dimwits need to realize is that these authors are not defining or correcting, but breaking precepts among the automatons in programing industry. To the readers of hip literature, words like science and art are spellbinding, and the need to pigeonhole is imminent. Of these ruminating class of people, the problem lies in their wanting of originality. What fills their banal brain are the stale food of thought that has been chewed and spewed. These above-average eggheads mop up the scholastic tidbits of its day to mull and muse with fellow eggheads. They could not see new perspectives. Could not understand gists. Could not detect non-questions. They are the holder and passer of knowledge, a bucket of pre-digested purees. Their train of thought forever loops around established tracks — going nowhere, anytime! So, is programing a art or science? is it art or science? I really need to know. • Theory vs Practice • Jargons of IT Industry • The Lambda Logo Tour • English Lawers PS don't forget to checkout: 〈From Why Not Ruby to Fuck Python, Hello Ruby〉 @ http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/why_not_Ruby.html yours humbly, Xah -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Programming is neither an art nor a science, but a trade. It's not an art in the sense of painting, music, dance, poetry, etc., because the objective isn't to make a beautiful something, but to give instructions to a machine to accomplish some useful task. It's not a science in the sense of either physics and chemistry (experimental) or geology or astronomy (observational) or cosmology or psychology (theoretical) because the objective isn't to test hypothetical s against data, but to give instructions to a machine to accomplish some useful task. Obviously, it's very much connected with art (e.g., user interface design) and science (e.g., artificial intelligence) but the practice of giving instructions to a machine is more like assembling machines in a factory than the pursuit of an art or the practice of a science. CC. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
ccc31807 carte...@gmail.com writes:
Programming is neither an art nor a science, but a trade.
It's not an art in the sense of painting, music, dance, poetry, etc.,
because the objective isn't to make a beautiful something, but to give
instructions to a machine to accomplish some useful task.
It's not a science in the sense of either physics and chemistry
(experimental) or geology or astronomy (observational) or cosmology or
psychology (theoretical) because the objective isn't to test
hypothetical s against data, but to give instructions to a machine to
accomplish some useful task.
Obviously, it's very much connected with art (e.g., user interface
design) and science (e.g., artificial intelligence) but the practice
of giving instructions to a machine is more like assembling machines
in a factory than the pursuit of an art or the practice of a science.
This is a narrow-minded definition of programming.
Watch: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/We-Really-Dont-Know-How-To-Compute
Read:Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html
http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
Pascal J. Bourguignon p...@informatimago.com wrote: ccc31807 carte...@gmail.com writes: Programming is neither an art nor a science, but a trade. Oh, that's why it is tought in trade schools alongside butchery, plumbing, masonry, and chimney sweeping and why you don't find any programming classes at university. jue -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On 4/2/2012 4:52 PM Jürgen Exner said... Pascal J. Bourguignonp...@informatimago.com wrote: ccc31807carte...@gmail.com writes: Programming is neither an art nor a science, but a trade. Oh, that's why it is tought in trade schools alongside butchery, plumbing, masonry, and chimney sweeping Yes -- back when we opened our first programming/consulting shop in 1999, our first employee was a trade school grad -- maybe ICS or ICT in San Francisco? and why you don't find any programming classes at university. Nobody said that the only option to learn programming was in university. Lots of us self-taught well before then Emile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Programing Art or Science?
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:27:16 -0700, Xah Lee wrote: 〈Is Programing Art or Science〉 Why is this question important? -- You are confused; but this is your normal state. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
