Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 30/07/2012 03:31, Rodrick Brown wrote: Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none glue work or simple web apps. When it comes to designing complex applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just isn't an option. Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. Oh come on, are you *actually* serious? Pretty much everything you've said is nothing but inept bullshit. Please stop. Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 23/08/12 22:46, Chris Withers wrote: On 30/07/2012 03:31, Rodrick Brown wrote: Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none glue work or simple web apps. When it comes to designing complex applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just isn't an option. Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. Oh come on, are you *actually* serious? Pretty much everything you've said is nothing but inept bullshit. Please stop. OK, well excuse me for butting in but it's obvious from your website that you have some experience with Python in the 'real world' I'd be most interested to hear if you have experience of or have heard of Python being used in any of the following circumstances. Critical Systems: wikipedia does a better job than I on the definition of a critical system although I'm not suggesting that everything in this article refers to a potential software system but it's a good illustration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-critical_system Real time systems: An example of a real time system in this context is an odds arbitrage back end publishing to the WWW via a collection of web services, of course this is just one possible interface, it could publish to another computer system or another HCI This requirement of course implies a complete decoupling of view and implementation. For more on odds arbitrage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage_betting It's 'real time' because publishing incorrect odds could cost someone a great deal of money, the odds need to be available for manipulation by the arbitrage engine as soon as they appear on the relevant bookies website (in fact I've had them appearing _before_ this as I managed to process them before the bookies web site did :-). http://www.python.org/about/success/#real-time has a few examples but I'd be interested to hear 'from the horses mouth' Again, wikipedia is your friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing What is the largest Python project you have experience of, you can use any metric you want, a simple KLOC, function point or cost analysis will be fine. This is a genuine enquiry and not designed to 'diss' Python in any way. Many thanks lipska -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:01:00 PM UTC-4, lipska the kat wrote: How is python used in the real world. songza.com is pretty close to 100% python. The only significant non-python code on the server side are mongodb, haproxy, and nginx. What sized projects are people involved with We've got 102 KLOC in the application (i.e. code we wrote), plus another 104 KLOC in django and 337 KLOC of other installed packages (i.e. everything in our virtualenv's site-packages directory). Those numbers are just the raw output of doing find ... -name *.py | xargs wc -l, so they include blank lines and comments. So, all told, roughly a half million lines of python code. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a far more interesting experience. YMMV. +1 Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Prasad, Ramit, 03.08.2012 08:51: I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a far more interesting experience. YMMV. +1 Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. Huh? Who's still trying to sell viruses these days? I thought they came for free? Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 02/08/2012 04:10, David wrote: On 01/08/2012, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list? I always strive to stay on-topic. In fact immediately this thread went off topic, 4 messages back, I did try to go off list, but got this result from the OP: Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: lip...@yahoo.co.uk Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.co.uk account (lip...@yahoo.co.uk) [-5] - mta1050.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (state 17). Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:43 +1000 Subject: Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? From: David bouncingc...@gmail.com To: lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk Then, if someone is going to call me an ignoramus on a public list, they will receive a response in the same forum. So, I apologise to the list, but please note the unusual circumstances. Thanks. I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a far more interesting experience. YMMV. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 02/08/12 04:10, David wrote: On 01/08/2012, Stefan Behnelstefan...@behnel.de wrote: Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list? I always strive to stay on-topic. In fact immediately this thread went off topic, 4 messages back, I did try to go off list, but got this result from the OP: Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: lip...@yahoo.co.uk snip This is my fault, I set the reply to address incorrectly. You HAVE corresponded successfully with me in the past however... I apologise for the inconvenience. JFTR I did not call you an ignoramus (it's a funny word though isn't it, makes me smile anyway). lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 01/08/2012 00:31, David wrote: On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote: [1] as in beer [2] for research purposes There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you. Great, more beer = better research = \o/\o/\o/ But, pump sounds a bit extreme .. I usually sip contentedly from a glass :p You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of process and timing? :) -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 01/08/12 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 01/08/2012 00:31, David wrote: On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote: [1] as in beer [2] for research purposes There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you. Great, more beer = better research = \o/\o/\o/ But, pump sounds a bit extreme .. I usually sip contentedly from a glass :p You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of process and timing? :) Heh heh, obviously never got drunk ... er I mean served behind the bar at uni/college/pub %-} lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 01/08/12 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote: You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of process and timing? :) Heh heh, obviously never got drunk ... er I mean served behind the bar at uni/college/pub %-} Nah, obviously *is* drunk ;p -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
David, 01.08.2012 13:59: On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat wrote: On 01/08/12 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote: You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of process and timing? :) Heh heh, obviously never got drunk ... er I mean served behind the bar at uni/college/pub %-} Nah, obviously *is* drunk ;p Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list? Thanks. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 01/08/2012, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list? I always strive to stay on-topic. In fact immediately this thread went off topic, 4 messages back, I did try to go off list, but got this result from the OP: Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: lip...@yahoo.co.uk Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.co.uk account (lip...@yahoo.co.uk) [-5] - mta1050.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (state 17). Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:43 +1000 Subject: Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? From: David bouncingc...@gmail.com To: lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk Then, if someone is going to call me an ignoramus on a public list, they will receive a response in the same forum. So, I apologise to the list, but please note the unusual circumstances. Thanks. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:45:51 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes: And at that level, you aren't going to write your app in Python anyway, and not because of the GIL. (These microcontrollers are unlikely to have multiple cores -- why the hell does your microwave oven need two cores?) http://greenarrays.com ;-) It seems to me that those who claim that the GIL is a serious barrier to Python's use in the enterprise are mostly cargo-cult programmers, I would say, it puts a crimp into Python's versatility but there are still lots of areas where it's not a serious issue. Of course it's a crimp. Nobody likes the GIL for its own sake, and nobody likes the fact that it does slow CPython down under some circumstances. It's not like the Python devs scheme behind closed doors on how to make Python slower. If somebody came up with a way to remove the GIL without the harmful side-effects, or volunteered to do the enormous amount of work needed, the devs would be as enthusiastic for it as anyone else. Recognising that there are *some* applications where Python isn't suitable (for whatever reason, not just because of the GIL) is simply common sense. There are a whole lot of factors leading to the choice of a compiler. Can use all available cores on a CPU is only one of many. [rant] But to hear some people talk, CPU-bound multi-threaded apps are the only serious enterprise apps, and further more, there is no possible way to make a program fast enough *except* threads, hence no possible way that Python is suitable except by removing the GIL. Do they consider that perhaps there are alternatives to threads? Or that there already are Python implementations that don't include the GIL, running on big enterprise-friendly platforms like Java and .NET? No they do not. If Python didn't have the GIL, they'd find some other excuse to dismiss it for serious work. And that is why I consider that anyone repeating without nuance the canard that the GIL makes Python unsuitable for serious enterprise work is a cargo-cultist. [/rant] And now I have to go yell at some kids who are on my lawn. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
In article 50177b4d$0$29867$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Do they consider that perhaps there are alternatives to threads? There's basically two reasons people use threads. First is because it's a convenient way to multiplex short-lived tasks on a single processor. What people tend to forget is that we managed to do that before there were threads. Event loops still work perfectly fine. For an interesting example, http://www.gevent.org/. Second is because we have multiple long-lived, compute-bound tasks and want to be able to take advantage of multiple processors. For that, multiprocessing works just fine most of the time. And multiprocess has the advantage over multithreading in that the processes can run on different machines, so you're not limited by the number of cores you can get on a single CPU. What multiprocessing doesn't give you is fine-grain task switching. So we're left with the set of jobs which consist of many (but not more than the number of cores on one CPU) compute-bound tasks, that we know how to parallelize, and require fine-grain task switching. Sure, that's an important set of jobs, but there's a whole huge world of computing that doesn't fit into that box. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 30/07/2012, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 30/07/12 14:06, Roy Smith wrote: These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com). We are very sorry to say that due to licensing constraints we cannot allow access to Songza for listeners located outside of the United States. Arse :-( A free[1] US proxy could bypass[2] that page ... eg something like http://www.airproxy.ca/ [1] as in beer [2] for research purposes -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote: On 30/07/2012, lipska the katlip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 30/07/12 14:06, Roy Smith wrote: These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com). We are very sorry to say that due to licensing constraints we cannot allow access to Songza for listeners located outside of the United States. Arse :-( A free[1] US proxy could bypass[2] that page ... eg something like http://www.airproxy.ca/ [1] as in beer [2] for research purposes Oh that's a bit good isn't it, just for research purposes of course. There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you. lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote: [1] as in beer [2] for research purposes There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you. Great, more beer = better research = \o/\o/\o/ But, pump sounds a bit extreme .. I usually sip contentedly from a glass :p -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Rodrick Brown, 30.07.2012 02:12: On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:07 PM, lipska the kat wrote: I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. Python is a glue language much like Perl was 10 years ago. Until the GIL is fixed Enough people have commented on this piece of FUD already. I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. I know enough examples to recognise this as nonsense. You mentioned working in financials and even there I know at least one not-so-small bank that's been developing their internal (EAI and business process) code in Python for almost a decade now. And their developers are quite happy with it, certainly happier than many of the Java developers I've met in other banks. Still, you may still get away with the above statement by providing a sufficiently narrow definition of standalone. By my definition, there isn't much standalone code out there. Most code I know interfaces with a couple of external tools, libraries or backends, usually written in languages I don't have to care about because they provide a language independent interface. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Still, you may still get away with the above statement by providing a sufficiently narrow definition of standalone. By my definition, there isn't much standalone code out there. Most code I know interfaces with a couple of external tools, libraries or backends, usually written in languages I don't have to care about because they provide a language independent interface. Agreed, and the flip-side of that is that there aren't many mono-language developers either. Sure, it'd be possible to make a career of nothing but Objective-C, writing apps for Apple to make all the money off, but even then you'll probably benefit from knowing some glue languages. Python's an excellent glue language, but it's also fine for huge applications. Yes, it can't multithread across cores if you use CPython and are CPU-bound. That's actually a pretty specific limitation, and taking out any component of that eliminates the GIL as a serious problem. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 07/29/12 21:31, Rodrick Brown wrote: Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. I'm not sure where you get your facts, but unless you define pure in a super-narrow way, it's just flat-out wrong. I've been employed doing primarily Python for the past 7+ years. Yes, there's been some SQL involved; yes, I've done code-reviews for somebody else's C# (the nice thing about C-like languages is they all read mostly the same); yes, some of the web apps have required knowing ECMAScript, HTML, XML, CSS, etc. But the day to day is mostly coding in Python. And the several recruiters that have contacted me in the past week or two about additional Python positions seem to think there are pure Python jobs available. Maybe you intended to write not possible to be a poor Python developer and find gainful employment today which could surely be the case, as I've met LOTS of programmers (Python and otherwise) that I'd never consider hiring because of their poor skills/understanding of their tools. -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
In article mailman.2717.1343634778.4697.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Python's an excellent glue language, but it's also fine for huge applications. Yes, it can't multithread across cores if you use CPython and are CPU-bound. That's actually a pretty specific limitation, and taking out any component of that eliminates the GIL as a serious problem. These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com). The business/application logic is written entirely in Python (mostly as two django apps). That's what we spend 80% of our developer time writing. As for scale, we're currently running on 80 cores worth of AWS servers for the front end. Another 50 or so cores for the database and other backend functions. Yesterday (Sunday, so a slow day), we served 27 million HTTP requests; we're not facebook-sized, but it's not some little toy application either. Every time we look at performance, we can't hardly measure the time it takes to run the Python code. Overall, we spend (way) more time waiting on network I/O than anything else. Other than I/O, our biggest performance issue is slow database queries, and making more queries than we really need to. The engineering work to improve performance involves restructuring our data representation in the database, caching (at multiple levels), or eliminating marginal features which cost more than they're worth. None of this would be any different if we used C++, except that we'd spend so much time writing and debugging code that we'd have no time left to think about the really important stuff. As far as the GIL is concerned, it's just not an issue for us. We run lots of server processes. Perhaps not as elegant as running fewer multi-threaded processes, but it works just fine, is easy to implement, and we never have to worry about all the horrors of getting memory management right in a multi-threaded C++ application. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 30/07/12 14:06, Roy Smith wrote: In articlemailman.2717.1343634778.4697.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelicoros...@gmail.com wrote: Python's an excellent glue language, but it's also fine for huge applications. Yes, it can't multithread across cores if you use CPython and are CPU-bound. That's actually a pretty specific limitation, and taking out any component of that eliminates the GIL as a serious problem. These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com). The business/application logic is written entirely in Python (mostly as two django apps). That's what we spend 80% of our developer time writing. snip We are very sorry to say that due to licensing constraints we cannot allow access to Songza for listeners located outside of the United States. Arse :-( Lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 2012-07-30, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Still, you may still get away with the above statement by providing a sufficiently narrow definition of standalone. By my definition, there isn't much standalone code out there. Most code I know interfaces with a couple of external tools, libraries or backends, usually written in languages I don't have to care about because they provide a language independent interface. It's not really relevent to this discussion, but there is _lots_ of stand-alone code out there. It runs in sub-one-dollar microcontrollers that are programmed in assembly language or in C without external libraries (sometimes not even the libc that's included in the C language definition). Those microcontrollers are everywhere in toys, appliances, and all sorts of other non-computer things. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Mr and Mrs PED, can I at borrow 26.7% of the RAYON gmail.comTEXTILE production of the INDONESIAN archipelago? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Jul 29, 9:01 pm, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I think when people talk of scripting this area tends to get missed: (Or if someone mentioned it, I missed it :-) ) http://wiki.python.org/moin/AppsWithPythonScripting -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 7/29/2012 5:12 PM Rodrick Brown said... Until the GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. See openERP -- http://www.openerp.com/ -- they've been actively converting SAP accounts and have recently absorbed a couple SAP resellers. Emile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
I work in financials and the majority of our apps are developed in C++ and Java yet all the tools that startup, deploy and conduct rigorous unit testing are implemented in Python or Shell scripts that wrap Python scripts. Python definitely has its place in the enterprise however not so much for serious stand alone app development. I'm starting to see Python used along side many statistical and analytical tools like R, SPlus, and Mathlab for back testing and prototype work, in a lot of cases I've seen quants and traders implement models in Python to back test and if successful converted to Java or C++. Maybe this is true in *your* experience but *my* experience is very different. I have seen Python modules become modules that end up rewritten in C for performance reasons but I consider that part of the power of Python and an argument *for* Python. Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Jul 30, 12:31 pm, Rodrick Brown rodrick.br...@gmail.com wrote: Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. I have been working as a pure Python developer for six+ years now (in that the bulk of my coding is done in Python, with some interface behaviour in JS). On average, every two months I'm contacted by a recruiter or an employer wanting me for my Python experience. I've worked for government, education and private industry, and the only time I didn't get paid was my last week working for a start-up. So I'm pretty confident that I'm gainfully employed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:09:38 +, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2012-07-30, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Still, you may still get away with the above statement by providing a sufficiently narrow definition of standalone. By my definition, there isn't much standalone code out there. Most code I know interfaces with a couple of external tools, libraries or backends, usually written in languages I don't have to care about because they provide a language independent interface. It's not really relevent to this discussion, but there is _lots_ of stand-alone code out there. It runs in sub-one-dollar microcontrollers that are programmed in assembly language or in C without external libraries (sometimes not even the libc that's included in the C language definition). Those microcontrollers are everywhere in toys, appliances, and all sorts of other non-computer things. And at that level, you aren't going to write your app in Python anyway, and not because of the GIL. (These microcontrollers are unlikely to have multiple cores -- why the hell does your microwave oven need two cores?) It seems to me that those who claim that the GIL is a serious barrier to Python's use in the enterprise are mostly cargo-cult programmers, parroting what they've heard from other cargo-cultists. It really is astonishing the amount of misinformation and outright wrong-headed ignorance that counts as accepted wisdom in the enterprise. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes: And at that level, you aren't going to write your app in Python anyway, and not because of the GIL. (These microcontrollers are unlikely to have multiple cores -- why the hell does your microwave oven need two cores?) http://greenarrays.com ;-) It seems to me that those who claim that the GIL is a serious barrier to Python's use in the enterprise are mostly cargo-cult programmers, I would say, it puts a crimp into Python's versatility but there are still lots of areas where it's not a serious issue. A real compiler (PyPy) will help Python performance far more than multi-core currently can. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Paul Rubin, 31.07.2012 06:45: A real compiler (PyPy) will help Python performance far more than multi-core currently can. That's too general a statement to be meaningful. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group Many thanks Lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
http://www.djangosites.org/ Instagram, Pinterest, Washington Post, and The Onion all use djangoto run their websites. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1906795/what-are-some-famous-websites-built-in-django Django is of course a very highly-regarded web framework written in python, but there are other good python frameworks out there with strong user bases. Python is used frequently on the server side of web applications for sites of all sizes, with the UI generally being done in javascript. It's also used heavily for administrative purposes such as: - Operating system installer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda - Software repository management: http://pulpproject.org/ - Software package installation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center - Cloud computing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack You can write web applications that scale automatically on hosting services like: - Google App Engine: https://developers.google.com/appengine/ - OpenShift: http://openshift.redhat.com/ - Heroku: http://www.heroku.com/ In sum, python is used widely for a variety of purposes by some of the largest enterprises down to very small projects. Michael On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 12:01 PM, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group Many thanks Lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 29/07/2012 17:01, lipska the kat wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group You are hard pushed to find anything here that's unacceptable, that's why I like reading this list so much. Many thanks Lipska There's a list of companies who use python on www.python.org top right of the page. You may have heard of one or two of them. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
counting source lines (was: Is Python a commercial proposition ?)
lipska the kat, 29.07.2012 18:01: My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly ..jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python Just a comment on this part. An even easier way to count source lines is by using the tool SLOCCount. It also works with various languages. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Another common use is to create automated regression testing frameworks, and other automation tools. I see posting for python developers for this type of thing all the time on stack overflow careers. On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 29/07/2012 17:01, lipska the kat wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group You are hard pushed to find anything here that's unacceptable, that's why I like reading this list so much. Many thanks Lipska There's a list of companies who use python on www.python.org top right of the page. You may have heard of one or two of them. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 07/29/12 12:13, Michael Hrivnak wrote: - Operating system installer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda - Software repository management: http://pulpproject.org/ - Software package installation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center - Cloud computing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack I'll include both the Bazaar and Mercurial DVCS tools which are mostly Python (I understand some inner loops drop to C, but both have the option to fall back to a pure Python implementation). -tkc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 29/07/2012 17:01, lipska the kat wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. Python is used extensively in XenServer, although arguably more of a glue between components. The installer is entirely python, whereas the running product uses it more for scripts and toolstack plugins. Behind the scenes, our regression test framework is entirely python, which performs several thousand machine hours of tests a night, from simple tests such as verify the installer runs correctly and verify settings are preserved across upgrade from an older version to set up a pool of 4 servers, kill the master server (by removing its power), and verify that the remaining 3 fail over and one gets promoted to master ~Andrew I hope this is an acceptable question for this group Many thanks Lipska -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Tim Chase, 29.07.2012 20:28: On 07/29/12 12:13, Michael Hrivnak wrote: - Operating system installer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda - Software repository management: http://pulpproject.org/ - Software package installation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center - Cloud computing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack I'll include both the Bazaar and Mercurial DVCS tools which are mostly Python (I understand some inner loops drop to C, but both have the option to fall back to a pure Python implementation). I find it perfectly reasonable to use C code (and other kinds of low-level code) in Python tools and applications. In fact, easy interfacing with low-level code is one of (C)Python's major selling points. Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 7/29/2012 12:01 PM, lipska the kat wrote: I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. Ever heard of a little startup called Google? It was built with C, Java, ... and Python. I believe Youtube is scripted in Python. Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. Even if the direct application is in Python, if it runs on CPython, it probably uses modules coded or re-coded in C, and it certainly used builtin functions and classes coded in C. The first 'killer app' for Python, in the 1990s, was its use as a glue language for interactive and batch scientific/numerical computation mostly done in compiled Fortran. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Michael Hrivnak schrieb: Python is used frequently on the server side of web applications for sites of all sizes, with the UI generally being done in javascript. Two large companies with lots of python code are dropbox and youtube: http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/3/14/6-lessons-from-dropbox-one-million-files-saved-every-15-minu.html http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/3/26/7-years-of-youtube-scalability-lessons-in-30-minutes.html It's also used heavily for administrative purposes such as: - Operating system installer: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda - Software repository management: http://pulpproject.org/ - Software package installation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center - Cloud computing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack - Frameworks/tools like func, fabric or ipython are used in medium and large networks/clouds. - Python is also used a lot for admin tasks instead of shell scripts. - I know IBM WebSphere is not the favorite choice as an application server for most Java programmers *g*, but it uses Jython for the admin CLI. python and python based tools are used for engineering and scientific computing - some random examples: numpy, Sage, matplotlib, NetworkX. Regards, Bernd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Sunday, July 29, 2012 5:01:00 PM UTC+1, lipska the kat wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group Many thanks Lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun If you check Google's job listings: http://www.google.com/about/jobs/teams/engineering/ On the software side of things you'll see very few listings that don't ask for coding in Python as a requirement or, at the very least, an advantageous skill to have. I'd say slowly, but surely, many people are coming around the fact that Python is not only as powerful as Java and other high-level languages, but it's also easier to read and write. That, and people (that I've spoken to, at least), find it far more fun to code in Python! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Scripting is one of the strong sides of python. I use it al the time to quickly write a script to analyze something or automate. That is probably the reason it is used to glue (script) things together and is embedded in some programs (like Maya and such). At the company we're using python and django for websites, from small micro sites till big enterprise sites. Currently I'm working on a highly configurable application to control a maya render cluster. You can also use it for testing and even frontend testing. I think you can use python for almost everything, tough I think it's less suitable for non-web gui applications. lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.ukschreef: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code. How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment. I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say it's growing on me. The questions I have are ... How is python used in the real world. What sized projects are people involved with Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more often used for a subset of functionality. I hope this is an acceptable question for this group Many thanks Lipska -- Lipska the Kat: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Michael Hrivnak wrote: Python is used frequently on the server side of web applications for sites of all sizes, with the UI generally being done in javascript. There is no javascript. -- PointedEars Please do not Cc: me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:07 PM, lipska the kat lip...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Pythoners Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions. I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly available, commercially used languages of the moment. Python is a glue language much like Perl was 10 years ago. Until the GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. I work in financials and the majority of our apps are developed in C++ and Java yet all the tools that startup, deploy and conduct rigorous unit testing are implemented in Python or Shell scripts that wrap Python scripts. Python definitely has its place in the enterprise however not so much for serious stand alone app development. I'm starting to see Python used along side many statistical and analytical tools like R, SPlus, and Mathlab for back testing and prototype work, in a lot of cases I've seen quants and traders implement models in Python to back test and if successful converted to Java or C++. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On 7/29/2012 7:12 PM, Rodrick Brown wrote: Python is a glue language much like Perl was 10 years ago. Until the GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. The GIL is neither a bug to be fixed nor an inherent part of the language. It is a design choice for CPython. There are reasons the CPython devs have no intention of removing the GIL (at least in the near future). A recent outline of these reasons (written by one of the CPython devs) is here: http://python-notes.boredomandlaziness.org/en/latest/python3/questions_and_answers.html#but-but-surely-fixing-the-gil-is-more-important-than-fixing-unicode -- CPython 3.3.0b1 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17803 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Andrew Berg bahamutzero8...@gmail.comwrote: On 7/29/2012 7:12 PM, Rodrick Brown wrote: Python is a glue language much like Perl was 10 years ago. Until the GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. The GIL is neither a bug to be fixed nor an inherent part of the language. It is a design choice for CPython. There are reasons the CPython devs have no intention of removing the GIL (at least in the near future). A recent outline of these reasons (written by one of the CPython devs) is here: http://python-notes.boredomandlaziness.org/en/latest/python3/questions_and_answers.html#but-but-surely-fixing-the-gil-is-more-important-than-fixing-unicode It's a nice document, though it seems to use the phrase shared memory in a novel (to me) way, and literally says that multiprocessing doesn't use shared memory even though it does (at least in the sense of the phrase that I'm accustomed to). I suppose you could call what I usually refer to as shared memory, instead System V shared memory. It's hidden from the user to a large extent, but when multiprocessing passes objects from one process to another, I believe it's doing so via System V shared memory. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Andrew Berg bahamutzero8...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/29/2012 7:12 PM, Rodrick Brown wrote: Python is a glue language much like Perl was 10 years ago. Until the GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option for large enterprise standalone application development. The GIL is neither a bug to be fixed nor an inherent part of the language. It is a design choice for CPython. There are reasons the CPython devs have no intention of removing the GIL (at least in the near future). A recent outline of these reasons (written by one of the CPython devs) is here: http://python-notes.boredomandlaziness.org/en/latest/python3/questions_and_answers.html#but-but-surely-fixing-the-gil-is-more-important-than-fixing-unicode Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none glue work or simple web apps. When it comes to designing complex applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just isn't an option. Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. -- CPython 3.3.0b1 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17803 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
Rodrick Brown rodrick.br...@gmail.com writes: Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none glue work or simple web apps. When it comes to designing complex applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just isn't an option. That's wrong, I've run multicore apps in Python, by just using separate processes. There was no GIL issue, just separate processes for each core. The cpython interpreter is so slow that the GIL is usually not the bottleneck anyway. For lots of applications this just doesn't matter since the app is either not cpu-intensive or (in my case) all the work is done in native libraries. Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful employment today. Certainly any serious programmer should be good in multiple languages, and in fact I got to write a little bit of C code at work a few months ago, but it wasn't really needed. The program is all Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
