Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Richie Hindle wrote: [Steve] Was it INTERCAL that had the COMEFROM statement instead of GOTO? I REALLY like the idea of a COMEFROM statement. I think python should have a COMEFROM statement It does - see http://entrian.com/goto/ (In case you doubt it: yes, it works, but note that it doesn't work at the interactive prompt, only in a real source file.) (The fact that I felt obliged to add the first paragraph on that page is the funniest part of the whole thing. I really did have people genuinely thanking me for the module, asking for features, asking for help with using it, and so on.) That module is. . . a) impressive b) very, very, wrong c) both a) and b) I think I'm voting for c). . . Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
[Steve] > Was it INTERCAL that had the COMEFROM statement instead of > GOTO? I REALLY like the idea of a COMEFROM statement. I think python should > have a COMEFROM statement It does - see http://entrian.com/goto/ (In case you doubt it: yes, it works, but note that it doesn't work at the interactive prompt, only in a real source file.) (The fact that I felt obliged to add the first paragraph on that page is the funniest part of the whole thing. I really did have people genuinely thanking me for the module, asking for features, asking for help with using it, and so on.) -- Richie Hindle [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Courageous wrote: *checks self to see if self is wearing rose colored glasses* assert(self.glasses.color != 'rose') ;) Jeff Shannon Technician/Programmer Credit International -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
>> Well, that's where Python helps you out compared to >> Perl. Python can be a bit clumsier than Perl for dirt-simple tasks, but >> you'll find that Python scales much better than Perl. My opinion: If "scales" refers to the /manageability/ of the code produced, I'd say that Python scales better than C++. I would /much/ rather manage a million lines of Python than a million lines of C++. *checks self to see if self is wearing rose colored glasses* *doesn't think so* C// -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python as a machine tool (Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?)
Jeff Epler wrote: Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* That's interesting -- I didn't know Python could be used as a lathe. You learn something new every day! I suppose an "infinite turning machine" would be a really *big* lathe... -- Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler wrote: If I want to beg my computer to run programs, I know where to find Intercal with its "PLEASE" and "DO PLEASE" constructions. Was it INTERCAL that had the COMEFROM statement instead of GOTO? I REALLY like the idea of a COMEFROM statement. I think python should have a COMEFROM statement, but since perl revels in being impenetrable, I suppose perl is likely to get it first. Shame. Steve -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Roy How about the Yoda version: do: statement do not do: statement The Yoda version actually goes statement :do statement :not do Caleb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Max M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jeff Epler wrote: > > No. > > > > Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* model of > > computation. An easy way to see this limitation is in the following > > code: > > >>> 1.0 / 10.0 > > 0.10001 > > In an infinite Turning machine, there would be an unbounded number of > > zeros before the second 1, giving the exact result, not a numeric > > approximation. > > Another thing is that in Perl it turns left, while in Python it turns > right. hence the .rfind() string method. > > > > Well, if you ever > > have to threaten Python, just keep in mind that '... or die' just plain > > won't work. You have to suggest that it 'try ... except', which is > > really offensive. If I want to beg my computer to run programs, I know > > where to find Intercal with its "PLEASE" and "DO PLEASE" constructions. > > Wasn't there talk about a "try harder" recently? > > try: > statement > tryharder: > statement How about the Yoda version: do: statement do not do: statement -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Finally, Python just doesn't respond to threats as well as Perl does. > I have run into many Perl programs that just didn't quite work right > until I wrote '... or die "$!"' in the right places. I find '... or die "You [EMAIL PROTECTED]"' works even better ;-) Thanks for a very amusing post! -- Nick Craig-Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler wrote: No. Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* model of computation. An easy way to see this limitation is in the following code: >>> 1.0 / 10.0 0.10001 In an infinite Turning machine, there would be an unbounded number of zeros before the second 1, giving the exact result, not a numeric approximation. Another thing is that in Perl it turns left, while in Python it turns right. hence the .rfind() string method. Well, if you ever have to threaten Python, just keep in mind that '... or die' just plain won't work. You have to suggest that it 'try ... except', which is really offensive. If I want to beg my computer to run programs, I know where to find Intercal with its "PLEASE" and "DO PLEASE" constructions. Wasn't there talk about a "try harder" recently? try: statement tryharder: statement -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler schrieb:
Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* model of
computation. An easy way to see this limitation is in the following
code:
>>> 1.0 / 10.0
0.10001
In an infinite Turning machine, there would be an unbounded number of
zeros before the second 1, giving the exact result, not a numeric
approximation.
Boy, you are cheating us Wake up, this isn't April 1st! :)))
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Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler schrieb:
There's another little-known fact about Python: No string is permitted
to end with a backslash!
Sure you meant string literals. But that is wrong, too:
>>> a = '\\'
>>> print a
\
A Python string mustn't end with an *odd* number of backslashes. Other-
wise a literal using backslash escapes like 'don\'t do that' couldn't
be parsed.
Now, this may not bother Unix sysadmins, but the honest truth is that
you'll be administrating Windows systems, too, anywhere you work!
This is no problem, thanks to os.path.join() ;)
Well, if you ever
have to threaten Python, just keep in mind that '... or die' just plain
won't work. You have to suggest that it 'try ... except', which is
really offensive. If I want to beg my computer to run programs, I know
where to find Intercal with its "PLEASE" and "DO PLEASE" constructions.
Sysadmin work with Intercal? Go ahead! ;) But what's wrong with a
protecting try .. except block vs. "... or die" for every command
to be protected?
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Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler wrote: No. Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* model of computation. An easy way to see this limitation is in the following code: >>> 1.0 / 10.0 0.10001 <> Jeff Nice, Made my evening :-) - Pad. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:18:13 +, Marc Huffnagle wrote: > Jeff Epler wrote: >> >> There's another little-known fact about Python: No string is permitted >> to end with a backslash! You might think that variations like >> r'\' >> or >> ""\"" >> would allow you to create this elusive value, but you'd mistaken! >> Now, this may not bother Unix sysadmins, but the honest truth is that >> you'll be administrating Windows systems, too, anywhere you work! > > >>> a = "\\" > >>> print a > \ That's really the only problem you had with his post? :-O *wink* -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Jeff Epler wrote: There's another little-known fact about Python: No string is permitted to end with a backslash! You might think that variations like r'\' or ""\"" would allow you to create this elusive value, but you'd mistaken! Now, this may not bother Unix sysadmins, but the honest truth is that you'll be administrating Windows systems, too, anywhere you work! >>> a = "\\" >>> print a \ Marc -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
No. Unlike Perl, Python implements only a *finite turning machine* model of computation. An easy way to see this limitation is in the following code: >>> 1.0 / 10.0 0.10001 In an infinite Turning machine, there would be an unbounded number of zeros before the second 1, giving the exact result, not a numeric approximation. There's another little-known fact about Python: No string is permitted to end with a backslash! You might think that variations like r'\' or ""\"" would allow you to create this elusive value, but you'd mistaken! Now, this may not bother Unix sysadmins, but the honest truth is that you'll be administrating Windows systems, too, anywhere you work! Finally, Python just doesn't respond to threats as well as Perl does. I have run into many Perl programs that just didn't quite work right until I wrote '... or die "$!"' in the right places. Well, if you ever have to threaten Python, just keep in mind that '... or die' just plain won't work. You have to suggest that it 'try ... except', which is really offensive. If I want to beg my computer to run programs, I know where to find Intercal with its "PLEASE" and "DO PLEASE" constructions. Jeff pgpmDM5lPWYOK.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Nick Vargish wrote: "John M. Gabriele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: At some point during some dingy job in the back boiler room of Unix, would you find yourself saying, "geez, I'd wish I started this with Perl -- Python just isn't cutting it." ? Sometimes I have to write a quick script in Perl because Python isn't ubiquitous enough around here, and I often find myself thinking I the opposite... "Perl just isn't cutting it." And I spent several years putting food on the table with Perl, so it's not like I'm a noob with Perl. Nick Thanks Nick (and everyone else) for the replies. Much appreciated. -- --- remove zees if replying via email --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
Aahz wrote: [snip] Anyway. Have you ever noticed how shell scripts keep getting longer? Yup. Ever notice how it gets harder to figure out what the heck any given script's doing? Yup. Well, that's where Python helps you out compared to Perl. Python can be a bit clumsier than Perl for dirt-simple tasks, but you'll find that Python scales much better than Perl. Check. Thanks Aahz. :) -- -- remove zees if contacting via email -- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
"John M. Gabriele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > At some point during some dingy job in the back boiler room > of Unix, would you find yourself saying, "geez, I'd wish I > started this with Perl -- Python just isn't cutting it." ? Sometimes I have to write a quick script in Perl because Python isn't ubiquitous enough around here, and I often find myself thinking I the opposite... "Perl just isn't cutting it." And I spent several years putting food on the table with Perl, so it's not like I'm a noob with Perl. Nick -- # sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?') -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "John M. Gabriele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I recently posted this sort of question to the c.l.p.m but > didn't get much of a response. I know a little Perl and a > little Python, but master neither at the moment. > > I see that Python is a general purpose OO programming language > that finds use among some system administrators, but my guess > is that Perl is still more common in that area than Python. > > For sysadmin-related tasks, is Python as useful as Perl, or > does it get clumsy when often dealing with the stuff admins > deal with on a regular basis? > > At some point during some dingy job in the back boiler room > of Unix, would you find yourself saying, "geez, I'd wish I > started this with Perl -- Python just isn't cutting it." ? > > Thanks, > ---J Given that Perl was *designed* for sysadmin work, it's not surprising that there are some features of it which make it very convenient to use in that arena. For executing external commands, nothing really comes close to Perl's back-tick syntax. For doing things like reading a sequence a files and filtering the combined contents with regular expressions, Perl is probably the tool that lets you do that in the most compact way. As a general-purpose programming language, it sucks. My personal opinion is that the general-purpose suckitude outweighs the domain-specific sysadmin convenience. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John M. Gabriele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >For sysadmin-related tasks, is Python as useful as Perl, or does it get >clumsy when often dealing with the stuff admins deal with on a regular >basis? > >At some point during some dingy job in the back boiler room of Unix, >would you find yourself saying, "geez, I'd wish I started this with >Perl -- Python just isn't cutting it." ? Not likely. I'm a programmer, not a sysadmin, but my company's too small for a sysadmin, so I and the other two programmers get elected. (For example, today most of my time was spent hunting down kernel patches for Red Hat 7.3 -- long story.) Anyway. Have you ever noticed how shell scripts keep getting longer? Ever notice how it gets harder to figure out what the heck any given script's doing? Well, that's where Python helps you out compared to Perl. Python can be a bit clumsier than Perl for dirt-simple tasks, but you'll find that Python scales much better than Perl. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death." --GvR -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:13:30 -0800, beliavsky wrote: > > [snip] > > I'm a Windows user, not a Unix sysadmin, but I've noticed that > Cameron Laird has written several articles on Python for system > administration in Unix Review and Sys Admin magazine, for example > http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=9083/sam0401d/ . Reading his > articles may help you decide if Python is a good fit for your work. Great series of articles. Thanks for the link. :) -- --- if replying via email, remove zees --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
John M. Gabriele wrote: > I recently posted this sort of question to the c.l.p.m but > didn't get much of a response. I know a little Perl and a > little Python, but master neither at the moment. > > I see that Python is a general purpose OO programming language > that finds use among some system administrators, but my guess > is that Perl is still more common in that area than Python. > > For sysadmin-related tasks, is Python as useful as Perl, or > does it get clumsy when often dealing with the stuff admins > deal with on a regular basis? I'm a Windows user, not a Unix sysadmin, but I've noticed that Cameron Laird has written several articles on Python for system administration in Unix Review and Sys Admin magazine, for example http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=9083/sam0401d/ . Reading his articles may help you decide if Python is a good fit for your work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Is Python as capable as Perl for sysadmin work?
I recently posted this sort of question to the c.l.p.m but didn't get much of a response. I know a little Perl and a little Python, but master neither at the moment. I see that Python is a general purpose OO programming language that finds use among some system administrators, but my guess is that Perl is still more common in that area than Python. For sysadmin-related tasks, is Python as useful as Perl, or does it get clumsy when often dealing with the stuff admins deal with on a regular basis? At some point during some dingy job in the back boiler room of Unix, would you find yourself saying, "geez, I'd wish I started this with Perl -- Python just isn't cutting it." ? Thanks, ---J -- --- if replying via email, remove zees --- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
