Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
John Nagle na...@animats.com writes: On 1/19/2012 12:56 AM, Lele Gaifax wrote: John Naglena...@animats.com writes: egg files are usually more trouble than they're worth. I find it really funny you say so, just after another thread where you proved yourself unable to come up with a working Python environment lacking an already packaged RPM of version 2.7... I can do it, I just have better things to do than system administration. The fact that Python doesn't just work is part of why it's losing market share. Hopefully whining and asserting doubtful things here are not the [only] better things you have to do :-) I know egg are not standard, but these days are still the only way to install Python-related stuff that includes precompiled stuff If it can be built with python setup.py build, go that way. I wasn't able to make the point clear: imagine you wrote one beatiful web widget built in Flash, what would you prefer, distribute just that widget with your Python module that uses it, or forcing the recipient to have a Flash compiler on its own and compile it every time you install the package? If the latter, why are you running on RH instead of (say) Gentoo?? A setup.py script, invoked with the correct Python, reliably knows which Python it is supposed to update. egg files usually have trouble with that. Never had that problem, but please, define usually and trouble. Prebuilt systems should use the installer for the distro, and work with yum, apt-get, or the Windows installer as appropriate. Why should I, when one format fits 'em all? I'm not against proprietary mechanism, but I surely see the benefit of an easier way of deploying my custom packages. It does seem to be necessary to install the development tools on a Linux system just to get various Python packages to install. Major packages are still all over the place. PyPy is just a directory of links, not a repository like CPAN. You surely meant PyPI there... but even then, I cannot see the point. It's evidently easy enough pushing there yet-another-link pointing to a prebuilt egg... Python sort of slips through the cracks. Nobody is doing the work to make PyPy handle these problems, and Python isn't important enough for MySQL, etc. to support the connector for the language. (They support Perl, C, Java, etc., but not Python.) Yet another OT argument but... hopefully nobody is forcing you to stay on the losing side of the market :-) Anyway, to me MySQL isn't important enough for Python, there are way better DB engines out there to invest my time with. ciao, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. l...@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
On 01/19/2012 10:05 AM, John Nagle wrote: I can do it, I just have better things to do than system administration. The fact that Python doesn't just work is part of why it's losing market share. Yes you keep saying that. Of course you are complaining on the wrong list. You should be bugging Red Hat about the Python 2.7 thing (after all you pay them for support, right?). Whining about it here is just silly. Python sort of slips through the cracks. Nobody is doing the work to make PyPy handle these problems, and Python isn't important enough for MySQL, etc. to support the connector for the language. (They support Perl, C, Java, etc., but not Python.) Supporting C is all they need to do in this case. Python works just fine with C libraries. I have used python with MySQL a fair amount in my previous job. The DB-API interface worked quite well and I found PostgreSQL and MySQL drivers that worked quite nicely. I'm not sure what you think is missing. Maybe you are whining about Python not shipping with the MySQL connector directly. Again, though this is a problem best solved at the distribution level as Python cannot possibly ship binary MySQL libraries for every variation of OS and MySQL client library version. I know the propensity of people on this list is to support and defend Python from any criticism, but in this case such defense seems justified. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
In order to build and run Mercurial on Linux, I needed Python with docutils. I've just installed Python from source and later setuptools. As a non-Pythonista, my impression has been that the procedure of installing setuptools and then using them is quite straightforward, but it's not advertised enough to newcomers. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
John Nagle na...@animats.com writes: egg files are usually more trouble than they're worth. I find it really funny you say so, just after another thread where you proved yourself unable to come up with a working Python environment lacking an already packaged RPM of version 2.7... I know egg are not standard, but these days are still the only way to install Python-related stuff that includes precompiled stuff, be it a Python module implemented in C, or a Pyjamas application, or simply .mo files containing gettext translations... *without* forcing the recipient to install all the needed compiler chains. I really hope the distribute2 toolset will provide such nice capability. ciao, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. l...@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
On 1/19/2012 12:56 AM, Lele Gaifax wrote: John Naglena...@animats.com writes: egg files are usually more trouble than they're worth. I find it really funny you say so, just after another thread where you proved yourself unable to come up with a working Python environment lacking an already packaged RPM of version 2.7... I can do it, I just have better things to do than system administration. The fact that Python doesn't just work is part of why it's losing market share. I know egg are not standard, but these days are still the only way to install Python-related stuff that includes precompiled stuff, be it a Python module implemented in C, or a Pyjamas application, or simply .mo files containing gettext translations... *without* forcing the recipient to install all the needed compiler chains. I really hope the distribute2 toolset will provide such nice capability. ciao, lele. If it can be built with python setup.py build, go that way. A setup.py script, invoked with the correct Python, reliably knows which Python it is supposed to update. egg files usually have trouble with that. Prebuilt systems should use the installer for the distro, and work with yum, apt-get, or the Windows installer as appropriate. It does seem to be necessary to install the development tools on a Linux system just to get various Python packages to install. Major packages are still all over the place. PyPy is just a directory of links, not a repository like CPAN. Python sort of slips through the cracks. Nobody is doing the work to make PyPy handle these problems, and Python isn't important enough for MySQL, etc. to support the connector for the language. (They support Perl, C, Java, etc., but not Python.) John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
On 01/19/2012 05:05 PM, John Nagle wrote: I can do it, I just have better things to do than system administration. The fact that Python doesn't just work is part of why it's losing market share. Maybe in your home is losing market (if you're so sure post some sources). If it can be built with python setup.py build, go that way. A setup.py script, invoked with the correct Python, reliably knows which Python it is supposed to update. egg files usually have trouble with that. Prebuilt systems should use the installer for the distro, and work with yum, apt-get, or the Windows installer as appropriate. It does seem to be necessary to install the development tools on a Linux system just to get various Python packages to install. Major packages are still all over the place. PyPy is just a directory of links, not a repository like CPAN. Python sort of slips through the cracks. Nobody is doing the work to make PyPy handle these problems, and Python isn't important enough for MySQL, etc. to support the connector for the language. (They support Perl, C, Java, etc., but not Python.) John Nagle An egg includes a python and OS version actually, and you're perfectly free to use your favourite distro-installer system. Someone cares if MySQL doesn't officially support Python when there are already perfectly working connectors? Most hardware vendors don't support Linux and Linux drivers often work way better than the Windows-equivalent (just to make an example). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
Please don't use setuptools, the so-called easy installation system in your packages. It just makes things more complicated, adds dependencies, and needs too many weird options if things aren't exactly where it wants them. Since setuptools is non-standard, it has to be installed before installing other things. In particular, if you're using somepython setup.py install don't require setuptools. Setuptools isn't doing anything for anybody at that point. egg files are usually more trouble than they're worth. John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
On Jan 18, 12:24 pm, John Nagle na...@animats.com wrote: Please don't use setuptools, the so-called easy installation system in your packages. It just makes things more complicated, adds dependencies, and needs too many weird options if things aren't exactly where it wants them. Since setuptools is non-standard, it has to be installed before installing other things. In particular, if you're using somepython setup.py install don't require setuptools. Setuptools isn't doing anything for anybody at that point. egg files are usually more trouble than they're worth. BIG PLUS ONE ON THIS! +1 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Please don't use setuptools, the rotten .egg install system.
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:24 PM, John Nagle na...@animats.com wrote: Please don't use setuptools, the so-called easy installation system in your packages. It just makes things more complicated, adds dependencies, and needs too many weird options if things aren't exactly where it wants them. Since setuptools is non-standard, it has to be installed before installing other things. Please don't use any projects that are built with setuptools or easy installation systems. Problem solved. -- Jerry -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
